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DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/29 16:59:39 (permalink)
Ron,
Please don't think I was taking you to task. I just "prefer" to put the tone stack last.
Too many are too happy the other way round.
I guess that's why there's more flavors than just vanilla ice cream.
Nice work by the way.
A lot of builders just solder the wire into the bottom of those hollow turrets, makes for
a very "clean" presentation.

Tom

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#31
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/29 21:54:24 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:36:44


#32
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/29 23:04:48 (permalink)
Mike,
I don't see 2 100 ohm resistors in the layout coming off both sides of the filament supply to form the "biased reference point" described in the theory document. I use a positive bias supply in my amps to do just what they describe (I don't build any cathode biased amps, but taping the cathode works, with zero cost, what could be better?). Your layout document looks like they have you shorting pin 7 directly to pin 8 and that is not going to accomplish what is being described in the theory doc. I'm done for the night, but I'll take a closer look at the schematic in the morning. You either have to connect the 6 volt supply center tap to what they label "point A" (if the tranny has one) or created the "virtual" tap with 2 resistors, generally 100 ohm. The drawing they label Figure 29 is right, that layout is not.

You might ask some questions regarding that on their forum. My membership has lapsed.

Tom

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#33
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/30 09:28:57 (permalink)
From the "Theory" doc at the AX site:
To understand this, we have to review some tube theory. Remember that a heated cathode emits electrons. In fact, the cathode has a coating of material that is very good at spewing off electrons when heated. Even though the filament does not have this same coating, it does emit a field of electrons during normal operation. Because the filament is connected to 6.3VAC, this field has a 60Hz signature. For at least part of each 60Hz cycle, it has a potential that is less than the voltage present on the cathode in our 12AX7 stages. During this time, the cathode attracts some electrons from the field around the heater, which in turn are mixed into the signal the grid and passed on to the plate. The end result is that power supply hum is introduced into the preamp stages.
The P1eX design uses a clever technique to avoid this problem. Instead of having the filament supply referenced to ground, it is referenced to a positive voltage taken from the top of the cathode resistor on the EL34, which is approximately 25V. This elevates (or biases) the heater voltage sufficiently above the preamp tube's cathode voltage to prevent heater noise from entering the preamp. An alternate way to elevate the heaters is to use two series resistors across C4 to form a voltage divider with a tap to obtain 10-50VDC heater reference.
(See page 32 figure 29)
ALL GOOD!
BUT, that is NOT implemented in either the schematic OR the layout drawing. Unless I'm missing something (could be, but I doubt it) Pin 8 (EL-34 cathode) is coupled directly to Pin 7 (one side of the heater string and NOT via a 100 ohm resistor).
The theory doc is GOOD amp design.
The AS BUILT is NOT.
It will WORK, the amp isn't going to go up in flames, BUT it's not as described.
I've stuck my nose in this enough and will now withdraw.
PM or email at aol.com if you have any questions.

Tom


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#34
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/30 09:41:20 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:36:57


#35
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/30 09:57:29 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:37:06


#36
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/30 10:16:41 (permalink)
Mike,
No!
The drawing (fig 29, page 32) in the "Theory" doc is right.
The schematic and the BOM do not have the 100 ohm resistors, but it should be an easy fix.
As I stated above, this is not a deal killer, just not the "clever" fix described in the doc.
I reference the filaments to about 50vdc in all my amps, I just have two bias supplies, one negative for the power amp and one positive for the filaments.
I'm lazy so I'll ask, does the power tranny have a center tap?

Tom

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#37
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/30 10:23:29 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:37:19


#38
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/30 10:31:31 (permalink)
Mike,
Here is the quick fix. Leo always used pins 1 and 6 as terminals for the screen and grid resistors, right? We can't use pin 1 as this is the secondary grid, but we only need a single terminal. So, jump pin 2 to 6 via a 100 ohm resistor, likewise jump pin 7 to 6 via a 100 ohm resistor and jump pin 8 to pin 6; done! You have your "clever" fix.

Tom Deering
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#39
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/30 10:39:12 (permalink)
The alternate would work, but using the tube socket is the easiest.

Tom Deering
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#40
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/30 10:43:15 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:37:30


#41
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/30 10:44:31 (permalink)
Another way to go is to "split" the bleeder resistor across C1. Then you have to do some math, add an eyelet; that makes my head hurt! Add the 1w 100 ohms and post your fix to their forum.

Most importantly, finish your amp and enjoy!

If you've been building Blackface "clones", I think you'll enjoy the extra crunch putting the tone stack at the end of the string will add.

Tom

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#42
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/30 10:46:55 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:37:40


#43
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/30 10:52:13 (permalink)
Mike,
I always "smile" when I see DC heaters. Way more expense and complexity when the positive bias reduces/removes the problem. It does not end the "hum" in the amp, as there are numerous sources, but it does take the filament issue out of the amp. I'm sure this "tap the output cathode" is a common "fix" in many old single-ended hi-fi designs. You never see it in guitar amps. As far as I know Peter Traynor is the only "production" builder to tie pin 1 on the EL-34 to a negative (relative to the cathode) source. None of the British builder ever do/did that as far as I know. Part of the design of the EL-34; why not?

Finish the amp!

Tom

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#44
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/30 11:34:41 (permalink)
Mike,
I PM'ed my cell if you have any questions.

Tom

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#45
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/30 18:12:50 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:37:50


#46
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/30 23:44:33 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:38:06


#47
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/31 09:51:38 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:38:17


#48
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/31 10:57:14 (permalink)
Mike,
This is an example of "cut and try". If it ain't broke...
I will say this, EVERY production amp I know of either center taps the filament supply, OR has the 100 ohm resistor pair to ground (the virtual tap). In Fenders its usually on the pilot light assembly.
I do know this. As I "lift" the filament string off of ground (I have a multi-turn pot on the + bias supply, much like the negative supply) the "hum" increases, then a some point (I have the exact voltage in notes somewhere) it begins to go away. Anymore I just set it at max, about 50 volts depending on the power supply.
Personally I would never have figured out that you could remove the virtual tap, if the tranny isn't center tapped I put the 2-100's on my bias supply board.

But again, IF it works...

I'm glad you found the explanation, now you can rest easy.

Yours in the quest...

Tom

Tom Deering
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#49
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/31 11:08:06 (permalink)
VERY nice work by the way. (I jumped to your last post and missed all the pics)
That's cloth covered wire on the pots?
It looks like you're grounding just one end of shielded wire, way to go.
Other than the "trick" mid circuit, I would say you have one bad a$$ uni-valve!
(I have bi-valve #0001, btw)
Light the wick and let her rip!

Tom



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#50
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/31 12:20:16 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:38:28


#51
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/31 12:33:19 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:38:36


#52
The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:38:47


#53
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/08/31 13:04:13 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:38:59


#54
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/31 13:47:24 (permalink)
Way Cool!

Tom

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#55
CJaysMusic
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/08/31 23:05:09 (permalink)
Thats look awesome.
I remember a few years ago you posted pics of some new pre-amps and stuff. It remeded me of those pics af ew years ago
Having a cool wifes is , umm, Cool!!!
Cj

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#56
Shadow of The Wind
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/09/01 00:57:57 (permalink)
Really cool pictures!
Have you considered DC heating?

Wilko
#57
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2010/09/01 05:42:01 (permalink)
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post edited by Caa2 - 2017/04/16 15:39:12


#58
skullsession
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/09/01 07:13:53 (permalink)
That's some fine lookin' work, Mike.

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#59
DeeringAmps
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Re:my blahg: AX84 P1ex DIY tube guitar amp project photos, notes and stuff 2010/09/01 09:28:01 (permalink)
Wilco,
Why DC the heaters when the positive reference point achieves the same thing, and in this case at zero increased cost and complexity?
The filaments are actually just a small part of the noise in the amp. The power supply is way more troublesome; IMHO.
DC heaters and class "A" push-pull power amps, right at the top of my NOT TO DO list.
Tom

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