X1 from Nuendo

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ChristopherDuncan
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2010/12/09 11:14:23 (permalink)

X1 from Nuendo

I've been using Cakewalk as my MIDI workhorse since long before the Pro Audio days because it's always been the best MIDI implementation on the market. Not surprising, really, since that was their initial claim to fame.
 
Once I moved from ADATs to software however, I chose Nuendo because as much as I wanted to love Pro Audio / Sonar, it never really felt ready for prime time. In the early days, the audio was a bit glitchy but even without that, the UI has always felt clumsy to me.
 
While I'll keep 8.5.3 installed for MIDI just in case, X1 is downloading as we speak and I'm really wanting to love it. Nuendo has performed well in every regard over the years. However, I'd love to have audio and MIDI in a single workspace instead of having to switch back and forth.
 
It's been a long time since I tried to use Sonar for audio. One of the things I seem to recall lacking was group / submix busses, which is pretty much a gotta have (perhaps they were always there and I just didn't realize it due to the UI). I'm also doing video production and playing video clips in the project was never a particularly good experience. Overall though, because of the awkward UI I just never dove deep into the audio aspects of Pro Audio / Sonar and am thus more than a little ignorant (my friends would be quick to confirm that as they tend to agree in all the wrong places). 
 
For those of you experienced with other DAWs (Cubase, Nuendo, Pro Tools, etc.), what's your feeling on how X1 compares? Is this going to be the version that eliminates Nuendo for me, or are you still keeping one foot in another DAW? 
   
Chris
post edited by ChristopherDuncan - 2010/12/09 11:16:37
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13 Replies Related Threads

    Rain
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/09 13:47:32 (permalink)
    Don't have X1 but busses have been available for as long as I've been using Cakewalk products at least, which is to say late 90's. I don't think there's a limit, except what your system can handle - if there's one, maybe someone could confirm - I've just never hit it. You just need to right click and create new bus.

    Tracks can be routed to bus either via channel output either via sends. Busses can be routed to other busses or to main outputs. 

    For videos, opinions vary, but I don't think many will claim that Sonar is a top contender in that league. But for scoring/recording to a video or movie, yes it does work.


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    #2
    Kev999
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/09 16:55:15 (permalink)
    Rain

    Don't have X1 but busses have been available for as long as I've been using Cakewalk products at least, which is to say late 90's. I don't think there's a limit, except what your system can handle - if there's one, maybe someone could confirm - I've just never hit it. You just need to right click and create new bus.
    Home Studio 6 used to have an imposed limit of 16 buses, but this did not apply to Producer Editions, where there was no limit.



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    ChristopherDuncan
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/09 21:25:33 (permalink)
    Hey, Rain.
     
    Well, I feel like an idiot. I've been in Neundo-land so long I was looking for groups rather than busses, even though the latter is what I'd instinctively reach for on a physical board.
     
    As for video, I do all my production in Premiere, After Effectcs, etc. but of course they're not my choice for mixing music. All I really need is the abilty to drop a reference video into Sonar so that I can line up the music to the visuals. I'm hoping X1 won't have any difficulty with that.
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    kaushal
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/09 21:40:23 (permalink)
    Hi Christopher,

    Unlike you I have been using Cakewalk / Sonar for mostly audio work. In my experience, it gives a warmer sound than Nuendo. It gets closer to the analogue warmth than any other DAW. Especially with the additions like the Vintange Channel VC 64 and the Vocal Strip. I think with the Pro Channel, X1 is going to be an improvement.

    Regards
    #5
    ChristopherDuncan
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/09 22:00:41 (permalink)
    Hey, kaushal.
     
    That's good to hear, thanks. While I've been happy with Nuendo, one of the things I'm really looking forward to playing with is the pro channel for precicely that reason, the warmth and emulation of the classic console. It's been a long time since I gave Sonar an in depth exploration on the audio side, and I'm really hoping to get hooked on X1. Not only for the sound, but to have everything in one app. Also looking forward to playing with Dimension Pro, seems like it's very full featured.
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    Jimbo 88
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/09 22:04:02 (permalink)
    Hey Christopher,

      If all you do is drop a reference video into Sonar you should be fine.   I have been doing so for many years without trouble.   However, many people complain that video for audio features are weak in Sonar.  One issue I assume you will have right away is tempo.  Sonar's handeling of tempo is very basic,  and you will have be a little creative and get some experience to work around some advanced  tempo problems.  For example...you might have completed scoring multiple music cues in one file and decide to change tempo in an early cue,  thus throwing off your timeline for all following cues.  With a little experience you can re sync everything pretty easily, but it is not for the faint of heart. 
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    Rain
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/10 13:29:51 (permalink)
    ChristopherDuncan


    Hey, Rain.
     
    Well, I feel like an idiot. I've been in Neundo-land so long I was looking for groups rather than busses, even though the latter is what I'd instinctively reach for on a physical board.
     
    As for video, I do all my production in Premiere, After Effectcs, etc. but of course they're not my choice for mixing music. All I really need is the abilty to drop a reference video into Sonar so that I can line up the music to the visuals. I'm hoping X1 won't have any difficulty with that.
    No reason to. :) Whenever you start using a couple of different apps that perform similar functions, it's easy to get lost in terminology.


    Incidentally, the actual "group" functionality in Cakewalk products has long been one of those cool features that we just don't mention, for those times when you want to modify, say, the volume across a bunch of different tracks that aren't necessarily sent to the same bus but still retain their relative loudness.


    Grouping can be relative, absolute or custom so you can set up the level of one track to increase proportionally when you bring down the fader of another track. Of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg - when you start using it on sends and other parameters it can get pretty wicked and the only limit there is your imagination. 

    As for video, I guess you should be fine. I don't have much experience with them myself, but on the few occasions I needed it, it worked just fine.






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    ChristopherDuncan
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/10 14:10:10 (permalink)
    Rain
    No reason to. :) Whenever you start using a couple of different apps that perform similar functions, it's easy to get lost in terminology.


    Incidentally, the actual "group" functionality in Cakewalk products has long been one of those cool features that we just don't mention, for those times when you want to modify, say, the volume across a bunch of different tracks that aren't necessarily sent to the same bus but still retain their relative loudness.


    Grouping can be relative, absolute or custom so you can set up the level of one track to increase proportionally when you bring down the fader of another track. Of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg - when you start using it on sends and other parameters it can get pretty wicked and the only limit there is your imagination. 

    As for video, I guess you should be fine. I don't have much experience with them myself, but on the few occasions I needed it, it worked just fine.
    Groups and busses (and bears, oh my!) - sounds like there's a lot of horsepower there. I'm also really looking forward to playing with the classic console vibe of the Pro Channel. I have a pair of Distressors which I love, but I'm getting more and more accustomed to doing everything in the box instead of routing to outboard gear.
     
    Speaking of which, does Sonar have a method to compensate for the latency of outboard gear or do you have to use the old school trick of sliding all the other tracks a few millisecond?
     
    I've got X1 installed and I'm chomping at the bit to dig in and start playing with it. Now if I could just get caught up on all my other projects so I have some play time!
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    Supercomposer
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/10 15:16:52 (permalink)
    are you kidding?? I use Nuendo5+NEK for scoring to picture, and as much I have NOW seen from X1 (nice concept though) it won´t be able to make me switch for a couple of years. I bought the X1 update out of interest but.. really....

    - Tempo handling --- hello?
    - Notation? -- good morning?
    - VIDEO IMPLEMENTATION/SYNC? anybody at home???

    Who says Nuendo has no good MIDI editing ? It´s the same like Cubase5.5 plus added Postproduction features. Dont you own the NEK5 (Nuendo Expansion Kit) ?
     
    Your concerns sound like you use a Nuendo version from 2003 

    post edited by Supercomposer - 2010/12/10 15:25:48

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    ChristopherDuncan
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/10 15:34:07 (permalink)
    Hi, Supercomposer.
     
    I'm actually a couple of revs back, running Nuendo 3. Believe I got the NEK at the time as well. While I'm quite happy with it overall, one of the things I don't really care for is the stunt they pulled at version 3. They wanted to be taken seriously by the pro audio community, so they made a huge price increase, around 300%.
     
    The actual feature delta between version 2 and 3 was modest at best, and certainly didn't justify that kind of price jump. However, I'm in the marketing business, so I knew exactly what they were doing. Right or wrong, people think that more expensive tools are better than cheap ones. They wanted respect from the pro audio community, so they jacked up their prices. Perfectly logical. However, as a customer, not wild about paying what amounts to a marketing premium for each upgrade. It's good software. It's not that good, though.
     
    Frankly, that's one of the reasons I'm hoping that Sonar is finally ready for prime time with X1. It's a good value for the dollar and it would be nice to have everything under one roof.
     
    That said, until now I haven't been as comfortable with audio in Sonar as in Nuendo. And while I write my MIDI parts in Sonar's Staff View (I have no keyboard chops), I don't need to print scores and thus don't miss that capability. So Sonar gets the MIDI vote. I do all my video production in Adobe tools and only need the ability to place a reference video. Nuendo 3 is as flaky as previous versions of Sonar in that regard, so it's a draw.
     
    So, I'd love for X1 to win me over for audio and handle my modest video reference needs. If it does, I won't be doing another Nuendo upgrade. If it doesn't, I might seriously consider switching to Cubase for audio as Nuendo isn't worth the difference in price.
     
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    Supercomposer
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/10 15:49:18 (permalink)
    Are you actually scoring to picture? With a lot of changes in tempi? You need video sync and format compatibility for import? Frame drop/non-drop? In this case, seriously... wait for X2-3 or get Cubase 5.5 in between - the video engine is rock solid. by the way Cubase 6 is coming up.
    BECAUSE: Nuendo 3 was great,  I used it about 5 years, skipping generation 4 because there was no real reason to upgrade for me, but 5 is fantastic. But it´s nearly the same like Cubase 5, just without postpro features, so if price matters.. sell your N3 license on ebay (Steinberg allows that, Cakewalk does not), and you should get a Cubase 5 license for the same price.
    REGARDING "SOUND" -> who wants a "warm" sounding DAW???? Most ridiculous sentence I have read today. A host sequencer needs to deliver honesty without changing anything by default, if I WANT warmth I use analogue outboard or the right plugins - Sonnox, PSP, Waves SSL, some Voxengo...
    X1 has  a nice concept.. not that I regret I have it, but its just not there yet.. I am a bit disappointed. Had some random crashes and a blue screen on my otherwise perfectly running workstation. Also, a lot of minor annyoances. Well a patch is coming up, let´s see what it fixes.
    post edited by Supercomposer - 2010/12/10 15:53:54

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    ChristopherDuncan
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/10 16:01:17 (permalink)
    While I do the occasional orchestral piece, by and large most of my music for video is contemporary / pop / rock in nature, so I don't have the tempo complexities that a film composer like you has to contend with. Also, with my video production and special effects stuff, I start with the music and let that drive the timing of the visuals. Yeah, I know, it's the tail wagging the dog, but in our environment I can actually get away with it.
     
    N3 is great to work with but I came to realize that the post features that set it apart from Cubase just aren't the sort of things that I need. And of course, that brings up an issue that is constantly lighting up the Nuendo forums - when it comes to flat out audio features, Cubase is always ahead of Nuendo in terms of new features, etc., something the Nuendo users have always taken exception to. And rightfully so, given the price.
     
    The comments on this forum give me the indication that X1 was released before it was extensively tested and debugged, something that I've seen before in Cakewalk releases. However, in fairness, I spent 20 years as a professional software developer and that's a common complaint of all programmers. Companies do this all the time, rushing stuff out the door before it's ready, making us look stupid when we're perfectly capable of putting out a solid product.
     
    That said, as soon as I can get the pdf manaul to print and read I'm going to approach X1 with an open mind and give it a fair opportunity to win me over. if not, I'll probably coninue with N3 and look at my situation again when Cubase 6 comes out.
     
    By the way, nice camel. Always wanted one of those but I'm a city boy so I had to settle for a Corvette.
    post edited by ChristopherDuncan - 2010/12/10 16:03:18
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    Rain
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    Re:X1 from Nuendo 2010/12/10 16:15:55 (permalink)
    ChristopherDuncan


    Groups and busses (and bears, oh my!) - sounds like there's a lot of horsepower there. I'm also really looking forward to playing with the classic console vibe of the Pro Channel. I have a pair of Distressors which I love, but I'm getting more and more accustomed to doing everything in the box instead of routing to outboard gear.
     
    Speaking of which, does Sonar have a method to compensate for the latency of outboard gear or do you have to use the old school trick of sliding all the other tracks a few millisecond?
     
    I've got X1 installed and I'm chomping at the bit to dig in and start playing with it. Now if I could just get caught up on all my other projects so I have some play time!

    On my end, I'm doing everything in the box, so I can't really comment on external gear vs latency compensation - I think it's there, but since I don't use it, I never explored that part of the program or researched the subject. Maybe one of the other guys will chime in.

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