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The Maillard Reaction
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2010/09/25 16:11:18 (permalink)

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post edited by Splat Chat O'samplemashy - 2018/12/12 18:32:01


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    guitartrek
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/25 20:17:56 (permalink)
    That's a cool experiment.  Tubes seem organic and so does that spectrum analysis.

    Makes me wonder if you had two tubes from the same manufacturer, would you see differences also?

    Or how about length of time it is on.  Like the same tube but the amp left on for a 1/2 hour?

    And then how steady is the voltage going in and how does that affect it. 
    #2
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/25 20:42:02 (permalink)
    The Mullard seems to have a bit more in the low end.... still I have to wonder if that can be heard.

    We've had this discussion before... But I wonder.... if an amp that you knew was played with random tube brands..... could anyone accurately pick out the Radio Shack tube from the Vintage tube...?   Just wondering.....

    I've been playing a gig, and had a tube go out...swap it out with whatever was handy to install regardless of brand.... stuff like that doesn't matter in the middle of a gig..... and could not tell a difference. I've also swapped out all my tubes with the boutiques, and there was no discernible improvement in tone or volume. The only improvement was psychological.


    ADD: I will give you this.... some tunes will cause problems in certain amps.... like feedback, but that is a problem in the tube....microphonics are an issue too but that again is a tube construction issue.
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2010/09/25 20:44:04

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    #3
    tarsier
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/26 13:13:05 (permalink)
    Then I tracked the first take several times. I swapped tubes between each pass and ended up with a collection of similar tracks.

    So does this mean you played each take into each different tube, or did you play back the recording into each tube? I didn't quite understand exactly what you were doing from your description.

    In other words, could the differences also be attributed to different performances, no matter how careful you were in playing?

    #4
    johnnyV
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/26 13:26:57 (permalink)
    As far as I remember being told by the old guys( like I mean real old guys) that if a tube shows at spec in a tube tester then it will do it's job as designed. It then came down to dependability.
    I is also **** to just change your tubes because they are old. I have tubes that are the originals in a Gibson Skylark built in the late 60's. They all show in perfect condition on the tester so I didn't change them out.  It's the Caps and filters that seem to need upgrading more than the tubes. That and a grounded plug is also a good idea.


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    #5
    The Maillard Reaction
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    . 2010/09/27 08:26:52 (permalink)
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    post edited by Splat Chat O'samplemashy - 2018/12/12 18:32:19


    #6
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/27 09:32:32 (permalink)
    A tube tester is an OK way to test a tube, but not ideal. Just like testing a battery with a voltmeter.  Not a good indicator of battery capacity.  A dead battery will often show full voltage, but put a small load on it, and it won't work.

    A tube tester will test the basic operating parameters of the tube...as to "will it work" or not. Is the heater circuit good, are the elements shorted? And will it pass current according to it's specs? The last parameter being a wide range.

    In many of the old circuits in radios and amps and other gear, there was a 20% tolerance for the parts.  To see 20% resistors in old gear is not uncommon.  So any tube that still works will give you results within a 40% operating range..... Newer amps will have the tighter tolerance resistors and components.

    Older tubes that still work are IMHO just fine to keep using. Unless there are physical issues that cause crackling or microphonics. It is also possible to run a tube so long that it's cathode is depleted and it's plate is burnt. Usually, the heater goes out first rendering the tube useless.

    I do believe, that new tubes sound better, because you think they sound better... In the same way that your car runs better after you wash it and spend a few hours waxing it.

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    #7
    batsbrew
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/27 10:28:14 (permalink)
    man, i've been playing thru tube amps for close to 35 years, and have played for years at the time, doing 5 hours a night, 6 nights a week..

    tubes do change.

    and fresh ones do make a difference.

    and different manufacturers do sound different (both preamp and power) 


    and sometimes the same model tube, will sound different.

    don't ask me why.


    but that's my experience.


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    tarsier
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/27 10:37:09 (permalink)
    I wonder if anyone has any suggestions about the test procedure?

    Now that you've explained it with sufficient detail to get it through my thick, obtuse head, it seems like a reasonable procedure.

    I would like to see multiple takes through the same setup just to find out how consistent the setup itself is. So... maybe 3 (or 5) runs through tube A, 3-5 runs through tube B, that sort of thing.  Or even better, do repeated runs through the all the tubes in sequence. So run through tube A, then tube B, then C, and so forth through all your tubes, then start over with A, then B, etc. Do that 3-5 times and compare all the A results, B results, etc. Find out how consistent a particular tube is after swapping it with the others.


    #9
    Middleman
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/27 11:08:35 (permalink)
    I played the same amp for 20 years (Vibrolux 1981) with the original tubes and I will say it begin to have a harder response, very non musical. Just flat tone. I purchased some GTs from Guitar Center and it made a difference the sound was softer edged and more musical. That is my only experience with changing tubes but I have wondered if all the raving about JJs and Mullards really makes a significant difference.

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    #10
    johnnyV
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/27 11:19:26 (permalink)
    I do believe, that new tubes sound better, because you think they sound better... In the same way that your car runs better after you wash it and spend a few hours waxing it.

    100% truth!

    as far as this test goes I think if we all gave you 100 6V6  tubes they would all be different.

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    #11
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/27 13:00:15 (permalink)
    Bat... I will agree... when you run an amp 6 nights a week... and it's on and cranking for 5 hours or more a night... and running like I assume you would run it... pretty far up the gain/volume curve.... a tube will "wear out" as the cathode gets depleted of the stuff (dope) they put in it to emit the electrons. 

    This can and will cause a change, decrease,  in the amount of current that flows and that will affect the sound quality and the levels. Installing a fresh tube  will be noticeable in a newer amp to some people's ears.  The difference will definately show up on high quality test equipment.

    Like Middleman said... he played the same amp for 20 years... that's a long time on those tubes.... yeah I'd say they were worn out at that point, unless it was only turned on once a year.  regular gigging and jam sessions for 20 years...yeah, you should consider some new tubes.  The cathode current in those tubes had probably dropped of considerably, resulting in the sound becoming harsh, not full bodied and rich. New tubes were the solution. He could probably have put the el-cheapo radio shack tubes in that amp and noticed  the same (a similar) improvement in sound.

    Had I been in his shoes.... as I have been several times over the years, I would have bought the better, more costly,  tubes as well. Give me a choice and I will not put the cheapest tubes in any amp except in a gotta have it now scenereo.

    My Mesa Studio 22 became microphonic, squealie, and after a call to Mesa, I ordered new tubes.... they were not worn out, just noisy. The new tubes sounded just like the old ones.... and the problems were still evident... just not as bad.... some time later I bought some GT's as well.... the microphonics are still there... tap a tub and it is heard.....  I just figure that the amp has such high gain  levels that the tubes really amplify the physical noise. And I reason that the microphonics assist physically in attaining the controlled feedback that is so freaking sweet on that Boogie.

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    #12
    mgreene
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/27 14:22:37 (permalink)
    Dont bother running tests. Just go to the "Vacuum Tube Valley" website and buy the magazine issues where they test the most ubiquitous guitar amp tubes (IF still available). They test WAY more versions of the 12AX7 and 6L6 that any mortal might ever have access to and I have found the tests to be reasonably accurate - accounting for taste. They test them as guitar amp tubes and as hi-fi tubes. The tubes that are best in hi-fi gear are not usually not the same ones that sound best in guitar amps. The RCA 6L6 is an exception.
     
    Here's an example that happened to me - My favorite 80's amp (the Sundown 1012) is not very popular because it is very tweeky - I dont think many people realize this. It just doesnt sound very impressive unless it is going through the right speaker and using the right power tubes (biased correctly). I managed to get one off epay in the early 2000's, but it didnt sound like I remembered - even though it had NOS GE 6550's in it. I kind of put it on the shelf and then one day I remembered that VTV had done an issue testing 6550's and I looked it up the test. Sure enough, they said that GE 6550's didnt sound too good in a guitar amps but to to try a certain Svetlana type. They were 100% correct. The Svets sound really good. Then I added a Celestion to the Sundown - like I had back in the day..... and WOWSERS! This amp kicks ass again. I lurve it!
     
    Interestingly, this amp came with Tungsram 12AX7s and nothing else sounds right in it.
     
    A rule of thumb - NOS almost always sound better than currently produced tubes. The above is an exception.
     
    Mike
    #13
    tarsier
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/27 14:46:07 (permalink)
    Dont bother running tests.

    But where's the fun in that?
    #14
    mgreene
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/09/27 14:54:22 (permalink)
    I thought someone might say that :)
     
    Well, run all the tests you want for fun - smoke'em if you got'em, etc.
     
    The VTV tests are a valuable resource - especially when you have 5 projects and 3 repairs backed up on your bench, like your truly :)
     
    Mike
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    Butch
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/10/03 09:49:01 (permalink)
    I did extensive testing of different tubes a few years back when I had a THD BiValve.  I used a direct recording of a guitar to reamp with the different tubes.  The results were recorded without moving or adjusting a single thing and the resulting tracks were easy to compare.
     
    The verdict is...Yes, different tubes do sound different.  It is fairly easy to hear the difference when you are listening to a solo guitar track, but in a mix...not so much.  The sound of different guitars, different amps, and different speakers is WAY more noticeable.
     
    That being said, the new production Tung-Sol 12AX7 are by far the best sounding of the currently produced tubes.  Big, full, rich sound.  For 6L6 and EL34 tubes, the SED Winged "C" tubes sounded the best.  For 6V6, I liked the Electro Harmonix.  Everyone says that JJ is the best EL84, but if memory serves me, the bottom end was a little flabby and the Electro Harmonix was better over all.  Of course I realize this is all personal opinion.
     
    As far as "testing" tubes by looking at spetrum analyzers...I think that is pretty much pointless, no offense intended.  No one who listens to one of your songs will ever bust out an spectral analyzer to "see" what you tone sounds like.  It's totally irrelevant.  The only thing that matters about tone is how it sounds.  As EVH once said, "If it sounds good, it is good".  Nuff said.

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    #16
    The Maillard Reaction
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    . 2010/10/03 10:24:12 (permalink)
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    post edited by Splat Chat O'samplemashy - 2018/12/12 18:32:38


    #17
    johnnyV
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/10/03 11:02:46 (permalink)
    Mgreene , thanks for the tip on VTV , good stuff, Now I'm going to have to pull all my tubes and see whats in there!


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    #18
    Butch
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/10/03 11:58:30 (permalink)
    @ Mike:  I don't think looking at a bunch of squigily colors really shares the experience with anyone.  Who could look at those spectragrams and decide which tube they would want to use.  I know that you have posted links to some of your music and amplifier audio files... don't you think that would be much more realistic and useful.

    Butch
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    #19
    The Maillard Reaction
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    . 2010/10/03 12:05:23 (permalink)
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    post edited by Splat Chat O'samplemashy - 2018/12/12 18:32:56


    #20
    Butch
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/10/03 18:20:58 (permalink)
    Not much color yet at my elevation (2,000 ft.), but the colors start at the tops of the mountains (6,000 ft.) and work their way down.  We just got our first cold snap this weekend and I hear that helps get things going.  Usually, it seems that the peak is the second or third week of October, so you should be close.  Every year people who know a lot more about it than me try to predict the peak and even they are just guessing.  Good luck and happy leafing!

    Butch
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    #21
    The Maillard Reaction
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    . 2010/10/03 18:46:06 (permalink)
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    post edited by Splat Chat O'samplemashy - 2018/12/12 18:33:14


    #22
    mgreene
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/10/04 10:15:21 (permalink)
    Hey Johnny, glad to be of service.

    Butch, I agree that the TS 12AX7s sound pretty good. However the ones I have (came in a used amp) are all much noiser than old stock.

    Certain EH 6L6s sound good too. These in particular are tubes I would have never tried / taken seriously w/o reading VTV.

    Note I have heard that the EH 6V6 wont take the "real" voltage in many Fender amps for long - some older Deluxes are running as much as 100V higher than what the schematic says. Old stock 6V6s arent very expensive so I stick with them.

    OP - I was trying to make the point that is well accepted that tubes sound different - just by electrical variation if nothing else. Two different 12AX7s in the same circuit can bias up differently and thus be in operating in slightly different sections of the linearity curve.

    Mike
    #23
    The Maillard Reaction
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    . 2010/10/04 12:15:27 (permalink)
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    post edited by Splat Chat O'samplemashy - 2018/12/12 18:33:34


    #24
    Ron Vogel
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/10/05 14:50:57 (permalink)
    It's interesting to hear others' experiences with these tubes...hauntingly similar.

    I also like the tungsol's for new production preamp tubes...although, I don't think they are a good fit for Fender circuits (I like RCA's the best for Fender). I find them to be unnaturally bright and icepicky. I liked the sound of the new EHX 12ax7's, but they seem to be plagued by microphonics and are grainy, not as grainy as JJ's, but it's there). The closest new tubes with the "vintage vibe" are the Sovtek's...I did some 6V6 swapping...and the sovteks were almost identical to vintage RCA's. The RCA's win out overall, the only thing the sovteks miss is the sparkle on top...and aren't as "Lively"...but it's really splitting hairs. Overall I like them, I have a pair of Sovtek 6V6's in an old '50s amp I'm sprucing up right now.

    I think a lot of people overlook the old Tung-Sol's from the late '50s...which is good (keep the prices down)...I really like them too...

    I'm stuck in the past, but my foot's tapping forward 
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    #25
    mgreene
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    Re:12AX7 tubes? Is there a difference between brands? 2010/10/06 10:34:55 (permalink)
    Here's a tip for you'uns. Many people dont know that preamp tubes of old (like the 12AX family) were meant to have a service life of 12,000 hours or more, when run according to suggested specifications. Do you know how long that is in guitar amp years? Well, neither do I - but its a long time. :)
     
    (Many guitar amps actually run tubes over spec - like the Silver Deluxe; that combined with heat, vibration and being physically bounced around are reasons why tubes dont necessarily last that long in a guitar amp.)   
     
    Take a flyer on some older "used - but test good" preamp tubes from ebay. If you can win them for less than the price of  currently produced tubes you might be pleasantly suprised. Some might be noisy but some might sound like NOS and last for years. Also, hi-fi people are looking for matched sections in a dual triode like a 12AX?, for stereo operation. This doesnt make much difference for a guitar amp so a hi-fi guy's cast offs could be great for a guitarist.  
     
    Mike
    post edited by mgreene - 2010/10/06 10:50:46
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