1812 Overture

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Jeff Evans
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2011/07/10 21:05:23 (permalink)

1812 Overture

I have been asked to play the cannons and the bells in the 1812 overture in a local orchestral concert in August sometime. Surely some of you have done this before and can give me some tips!

OK got the cannons sorted. I bought a fantastic sound effect of two ships engaged in a cannon battle. Yes battle! And in the correct era so the cannons sound huge. Actually you have to hear this effect to believe it! Stereo is amazing in this too.

I will be using my trusty Emulator E5000 sampler to do the playback and some sort of controller to trigger them. Not the sort thing you want to get wrong compared to one little incorrect note from one of the violins! There are other issues as well. You need some serious sound reinforcement to compete with the orchestra going for it at that part of the score. OK I have got 2 big EV boxes I can snuffle for a lend with 15's and horns and a big Carver power amp to drive em. That should do it.

The bells. Well they are providing them, tubular I think. But they are going off at the same time so I may need to think multitasking here.

Yes I have got the score and the music so I am going to learn this part of it from memory. My reading is not that great but probably good enough to get through this.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/10 21:15:49 (permalink)
    Jeff... that sounds like a BLAST!

    have fun.

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    Russell.Whaley
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/10 21:26:24 (permalink)
    That does sound like a great time.

    For a moment I had visions in my head of you carefully aiming cannons at large bells so you could ring the bells on cue... must be Sunday night or something...




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    craigb
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/10 22:09:48 (permalink)
    I would have used actual cannons (and probably been arrested), but...

     
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    RobertB
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/10 22:46:43 (permalink)
    Guitarhacker


    Jeff... that sounds like a BLAST!

    There's nothing quite like the sound of a 12# cannon. Of course, you probably wouldn't want to fire it indoors.


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    drewfx1
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/10 22:58:33 (permalink)
    Ask them if they're going to play the correct "original version". You know, the one with the extended improvised cannon cadenza.

     In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/10 23:54:55 (permalink)
    Drew funny you should mention that. I found a great version on GrooveShark with the London Philharmonic playing it and they are doing the extended cannon version right to the very end and the very last thing is a cannon blast. But not on my score, it seems the orchestra is playing after the cannons stop. They must be doing the other version. But the conductor might get me to cannon off during the last section as well. Hope so.

    So thanks for bringing that up. I have not been to a rehearsal yet. They have already played it a few times. I am still sorting out the cannons in the sampler and the PA etc. I could get the bells into the sampler as well and do a keyboard split. They might want real church bells.

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    Jonbouy
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 06:29:27 (permalink)
    Sounds like great fun.

    I love that overture.

    "We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
    In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 07:23:33 (permalink)
    I grew up in a house with a family record player... and as a child we had 6 records we were allowed to play without direct supervision.

    A version of the 1812 Overture was one of them.

    I don't have advice or tips... but I sure think this seems like a great project to be involved with.

    Enjoy.



    Oh I do have one tech tip... JBL and MacCauley are used for a lot of installs for military training where they provide the gear for mimicking contemporary battlefield sounds at full volume.

    I wonder if JBL's corporate representation in Australia might be able to lend a playback system for promotional purposes?



    all the best,
    mike




    #9
    ericyeoman
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 07:50:41 (permalink)
    I have been asked to play the cannons


    That is waaaaay cool!

    Dunno if you've got Native Instruments Battery, but that's got a drum kit called Armageddon.
    Lots of explosions, machine guns, crashing cars etc. Maybe worth a look.

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    Glyn Barnes
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 08:20:53 (permalink)
    Maybe this.
    Sonokenetic Carillion
     
    Or a free one
     
    The Carillion bells might be a bit too lightweight though.
     
     

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    Jonbouy
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 08:37:06 (permalink)
    I grew up in a house with a family record player... and as a child we had 6 records we were allowed to play without direct supervision.

    A version of the 1812 Overture was one of them.


    +1

    The Goons 'Ying Tong Song' was another.

    "We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
    In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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    Karyn
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 08:57:27 (permalink)
    There's a song that I recall my mother sang to me...

    Mekashi Futo
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    jackn2mpu
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 08:58:32 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans


    Drew funny you should mention that. I found a great version on GrooveShark with the London Philharmonic playing it and they are doing the extended cannon version right to the very end and the very last thing is a cannon blast. But not on my score, it seems the orchestra is playing after the cannons stop. They must be doing the other version. But the conductor might get me to cannon off during the last section as well. Hope so.

    So thanks for bringing that up. I have not been to a rehearsal yet. They have already played it a few times. I am still sorting out the cannons in the sampler and the PA etc. I could get the bells into the sampler as well and do a keyboard split. They might want real church bells.


    A couple of things to think about:
    low end - make sure the PA has adequate power in the low end so the speakers don't fart-out during the cannon blasts. I've heard far too many renditions where the low end suffers because of this.

    Assign the cannons to multiple keys (non-pitched of course) so when you go for follow-on blasts you don't inadvertently step on the tail of a previous cannon firing.

    At least one good thing with sampled cannons - they'll come out at the right time. This year's "A Capitol Fourth" which is a celebration in Washington, DC that's shown on public tv the timing of the blasts was off slightly because they used real cannons. Because there's a delay between lighting the fuse and the cannon actually firing they should have given the firing orders slightly before the time it was to be sounded. Oh yeah - one more good thing with sampled cannons versus real cannons - you don't have to mic the things! I have a very old vinyl album with the 1812 on it and they go into all the trials and tribulations with micing the cannons ( being able to handle the spl and getting a good sound were just a couple of issues).

    Jack
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    Karyn
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 09:01:26 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans

    I will be using my trusty Emulator E5000 sampler to do the playback and some sort of controller to trigger them.
    You can't beat a handfull of flashbangs in a steel oil drum.  Much more effective.


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    bapu
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 09:26:11 (permalink)
    Karyn


    Jeff Evans

    I will be using my trusty Emulator E5000 sampler to do the playback and some sort of controller to trigger them.
    You can't beat a handfull of flashbangs in a steel oil drum.  Much more effective.

    Are you sure those won't sound like violins if he doesn't have the correct quantity of flashbangs or the wrong size oil drum?


    #16
    Karyn
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 09:28:58 (permalink)
    bapu


    Karyn


    Jeff Evans

    I will be using my trusty Emulator E5000 sampler to do the playback and some sort of controller to trigger them.
    You can't beat a handfull of flashbangs in a steel oil drum.  Much more effective.

    Are you sure those won't sound like violins if he doesn't have the correct quantity of flashbangs or the wrong size oil drum?


    Oh you've heard me trying to play violin?

    Mekashi Futo
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    bapu
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 09:34:31 (permalink)
    Karyn


    bapu


    Karyn


    Jeff Evans

    I will be using my trusty Emulator E5000 sampler to do the playback and some sort of controller to trigger them.
    You can't beat a handfull of flashbangs in a steel oil drum.  Much more effective.

    Are you sure those won't sound like violins if he doesn't have the correct quantity of flashbangs or the wrong size oil drum?


    Oh you've heard me trying to play violin?

    Link?


    #18
    Karyn
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 09:54:31 (permalink)
    bapu


    Karyn


    bapu


    Karyn


    Jeff Evans

    I will be using my trusty Emulator E5000 sampler to do the playback and some sort of controller to trigger them.
    You can't beat a handfull of flashbangs in a steel oil drum.  Much more effective.

    Are you sure those won't sound like violins if he doesn't have the correct quantity of flashbangs or the wrong size oil drum?


    Oh you've heard me trying to play violin?

    Link?

    Soon...  

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 10:08:31 (permalink)
    On the LP copy of 1812 that we had the B side had a monologue describing the recording and mastering process. It took a big effort to squeeze the effect of the cannon into the record groove.

    The speaker also discussed the fact that when they first fired off the actual cannons that they excited some far away storage container than resonated with a tone that could be heard on the microphones.

    anyways... fun memories.




    #20
    Karyn
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 10:17:05 (permalink)
    They had storage containers in 1812?  Wow!

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 10:24:16 (permalink)
    Yes they did.

    But the microphones all had issues.

     


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    UbiquitousBubba
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 10:35:56 (permalink)
    mike_mccue



     


    Ah.  I see CJ talked you into trying out his "Mastering Headphones".
    #23
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 10:40:07 (permalink)
    The inner surface of the tube is gold plated for the very best reflection.


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    bapu
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 10:56:22 (permalink)
    mike_mccue


    The inner surface of the tube is gold plated for the very best reflection.

    PWF!
     
    #25
    bitflipper
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 13:17:06 (permalink)
    I, too, have a special nostalgia for the 1812 overture. It was my favorite record as a toddler and as such became so deeply ingrained that anything other than that particular performance (recorded c. 1954 with real cannons) still sounds weird to me.



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    jackn2mpu
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 17:27:28 (permalink)
    This thread got me to looking through my 1812 collection. On vinyl I have:

    Tschaikovsky 1812 & Nutcracekr Suite done by Larry Alexander & Jack Kraft, keyboards (ARP 2600, Odyssey & Pro Soloist) performed by Kraft and engineered by Alexander. Copyright 1977 Decca/London Records. SPC21168.

    Tschaikovsky 1812 Overture & Ravel's Bolero done by Morton Gould Orchestra & Band. RCA Victor LSC2345 no copyright date.

    Beethoven Wellington's Victory & 1812 Overture, Herbert von Karajan & Berlin Philharmonic. Deutsche Grammophon. No copyright, liner notes in German & English.

    And on CD:
    Tschaikovsky 1812 Overture & Capriccio Italien & Cossack Dance from Marzeppa fone by the late Erich Kunzel & Cinncinnati Symphony Orchestra. Telarc Digital copyright 1979. This one even says on the liner notes : "Caution! Digital Cannons". According to the liner notes they sampled 3 cannons owned and operated by the Fifth Virginia Regiment and various powder charges. Initial crack lies in the 2000 Hz to 3000 Hz range and the follow-up boom goes down to 6 Hz!. In the process of firing the cannons they blew out some of the windows of the college's English department several hundred feet away (this took place at Baldwin-Wallace College in Berea Ohio.

    Jack
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    bapu
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/11 17:49:14 (permalink)
    Jack,

    Maybe it's time to move on to 1813?

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/12 00:39:37 (permalink)
    This is getting more interesting by the minute. Firstly check out this little doco type thing on how they recorded the actual cannon sounds.

    http://grooveshark.com/#/...ms+Taylor/36jJ4a?src=5

    This guy Deems Taylor explains it well and there many fine examples of this cannon going off and it sounds huge. Also they do the bells a little later on toward the end and they sound awesome. I am definately going to sample the bells, they have a very distinctive and huge sound. They don't seem to overlap on the score from what I can tell.

    I have also found a great version of the just the end section where explosions have gone off in perfect time and they are very clear. On many versions they are hard to hear sometimes and of course many versions don't have the cannons at all.

    I am going to layer up some of the cannons from the ships battle FX I purchased because they also sound massive plus those fantastic cannons on the Deems Taylor example. I might also layer up some deep filtered pink noise just to add a bit of doooosh!

    Good advice about the bass end. I think the 2 EV's I have in mind will do it and I found a big loud poweramp at the TAFE college where I teach also. The speakers are rated at about 400 watts each so I hoping it is going to do it.  From the Deems thing the stereo is important. I will definitely run two speakers.

    Also I noticed that when you listen to the London Philharmonic version if you set the very last blasts to just reach the maximum level the very first opening section with the violins is -36 db down from that. Is that dynamic range or what! The whole overture uses a 36 db or more dynamic range from go to whoa. I love the very start too.


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    Eyes
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    Re:1812 Overture 2011/07/12 07:34:41 (permalink)
    Sounds really awesome. At first I thought you were literally firing a canon... lol.

    Good luck mate.
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