Helpful Reply1w Tube Amp Question

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michaelhanson
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2014/12/12 11:52:27 (permalink)

1w Tube Amp Question

I have been kicking around the idea of buying a 1w amp for recording and practice.  I have not decided what I am going to buy yet, but I have had this idea floating around my head and wondering if it is possible to do this.  I am leaning towards a head, instead of a combo, because I never like the small 8" speakers that come with the cabinets. 
 
Rather than buying a cabinet, is it possible to just connect the speakers from my Peavey Classic 50/410 and connect the 1w Head instead?  I see that it has 8 and 16 ohm connections on the Classic 50.  It looks like the lead is to short to actually make it to the Head if you were to set the Head on top of the amp.
post edited by MakeShift - 2014/12/12 12:10:37

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batsbrew
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 11:57:52 (permalink)
the thing is,
you want to match the wattage and 'efficiency' of the speaker, to the amp.
 
that would be a huge mis-match, if you ask me.
 
but, there are no rules.
 
you will not get much speaker excursion with an oversized speaker and 1 watt.
 
and speaker excursion, is where about half the magic happens.
 

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batsbrew
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 12:10:16 (permalink)
if you have a particular amp in mind..
and know it is exactly 1 watt, and it gives you what you want...... (the marshall JMP-1H comes to mind)
 
then i would get busy on doing low watt 10" or 12" driver homework,
and build a custom closed back cab just for the purpose.
 
i've done this with drivers in my Demeter Iso cab,
and ended up with a custom Weber 
 
 
 
 
 
here's an interesting article to consider:
http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/shattering-speaker-pairing-misconceptions-1
 
 

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michaelhanson
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 12:18:42 (permalink)
Bat,
 
I have by no means made up my mind yet, but the one that got me thinking about it is the Blackstar H1.  I was intrigued by the speaker/ headphone out simulation as well.  I believe that it said it could be routed to a mixing board through that simulated out.  GC had the 8" Combo that I played with for a couple of hours. 

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batsbrew
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 12:28:59 (permalink)
you know that 8" speaker will sound........ small.
even if you put a 57 right on the edge of it, for some proximity effect,
it will never sound like a larger cab or driver...
that said, could be a cool sound,
and you can always output to a larger cab, and blend that with the direct out.
that blackstar head is only $250.....
the JMP-1h is $1000.
 
lol
 
 
they are NOT going to sound the same.
 
 

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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 12:38:29 (permalink)
Yes, the 8" speaker sounded very wimpy and small, that's what got me wondering what it would sound like through a 4/10 set of speaks.  As you say, it may not drive them enough to sound right. 

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Rain
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 17:23:41 (permalink)
Of course it's subjective, but I did a few recordings w/ the Direct Out on the Blackstar, and listening back, I'm not all that happy w/ the sound. 
 
For my taste, it's better than the D.O. on my little Marshall and my little Fender but not as good as the emulated out on my L6 Spider.
 
One I'd be curious to try is the Hugues and Kettner. (I have to have a H&K someday).
 
8" may work for certain things in certain contexts, but I don't think it'd be as versatile as the classic 12". Again, that's strictly personal.
 
My Randall has a 10". Better, but that's still not entirely it for me. I'll probably add a little 1x12, or ideally a 2x12 cab eventually.
 
 

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batsbrew
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 17:42:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/12/12 17:58:25
FOR RECORDING LOW VOLUME.....
 
i have my 'big rig' automatically dialed in for low volume/quiet recording.....
 

 
my current favorite recording technique (guitars) using a Weber Mass Lite and Palmer PDI-09 by itself.
This allows for a 'quiet' way to capture full bore tube amp sounds into a DAW, without getting evicted or divorced.
but you can also run your amp wide open, as loud as you want, and the signal from the palmer stays the same, more or less.
The Weber Mass Lite, 100w, is my attenuator of choice.

https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/masslite.htm

Palmer PDI-09:


here's how i use it:
i go Mesa boogie Mark IIb 60 watt tube head /speaker out (8 or 4 ohm, prefer 8) into the Palmer PDI-09.
so, boogie speaker out into palmer 'INPUT', and then back out via the 'THRU', and that goes to the Weber, for attenuation.
From the Weber, 'speaker out' to whatever cab i want to use (the demeter isolation cabinet if i want to play loud, the celestion greenback cab if i want to monitor 'open air'.)
idea here is, if i want to record in the headphones, i can attenuate the piss out of the boogie, put it in the demeter, and it is almost silent.
if i want to play loud, and play along with my monitors blasting my backing tracks, i can use my closed back 1x12 with the celestion, or into the demeter, and play as loud as i want.. the palmer doesn't know the difference, only the weber comes into play, and since i'm not micing, there's no bleed over from the guitar cab and the monitors......
so, the 'BAL. OUT' on the palmer, is an XLR out, that goes to a mic preamp, digital convertor, and into the DAW.
the switches on the top of the palmer give me line level attenuation, and 3 different 'cab and mic' sounds.
i like the NORMAL setting the best. It's all passive, the weber and the palmer, so i'm not introducing any kind of electrical noise at either of these two units.

on the weber:
the feel of the response to the speaker cab, seems and feels more natural to me than other attenuators i've used before.
but, i've got to run it almost maxed out to get the 'bedroom volume' control i want for actually using my speaker cab for monitoring.
luckily, i have a Demeter iso box, that i can use as a load box to run the weber a little hotter (less attenuation, i mean).
the little palmer pdi-09 unit is the thing that's stealing the true 'amp wide open' sound, so the weber is strictly for monitoring purposes..... i'm not micing the cab.
notice the (2) attenuators on the face of the weber.....
the mids/highs one on the right, just works a little bit...
most of the energy is going to the lows and mids, so the attenuator on the left i've got maxed out, and then backed off a bit (about 1) with the highs set at about 2 or 3.
when it's maxed out, i can actually hear the speaker motor inside the cage working.
oh my god, don't dare hit the bypass switch, when the amp has the master sitting on '7'.....
LOL.. that'll wake you up.
the boogie really sounds different, with the master almost wide open.
the entire tone stack, opens up, and the mids become very throaty.
the unit does get a bit hot...
and smells funny, at first, but the more it is used, the new burn smell goes away.
using these devices, allows you to re-think all of the gain structures, and choices of eq settings.
the pedals i use, seem to have more tone and control, now that i'm running the boogie at it's optimum setting for tube magic and transformer magic.

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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 19:42:37 (permalink)
Interesting stuff, Bat.

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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 21:43:16 (permalink)
I've been messing with small single ended amps for the last year. No matter what I try, the big sound at bedroom volume has eluded me unless I run a pedal for distortion. Bat is using a pretty elaborate rig for his tone, so I'm not surprised that he gets good tone.
 
I never liked the sound of any speaker less than 10", so I'm usually building a single or dual 12" for the small amps. The open back 2x12 is my go to speaker cab and I have one in the living room. A 5 watt amp through that cab sounds great. The cab is rated for a max of 300 watts so you might think it would be under powered. With a little amp wound out you are sending the cab a square wave with a ton of harmonic content. I feel the bigger speaker is better at handling that without damage.
 
For a 1 watt amp I'd likely go with a single 12" speaker. Alnico is kind of magic when pushed hard. An Alnico magnet reacts to the voltage generated in the voice coil and acts like a compressor. The voice coil creates it's own little EMF field that counter acts the magnet in the speaker, causing it to temporarily reduce the magnetic flux of the Alnico magnet. The response rolls off under full load. When you back off a bit, the flux comes back and response increases, as if by magic. So, my choice for the 1 watter would be a Jensen P12R or Celestion Blue.

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batsbrew
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 21:51:48 (permalink)
ampfixer
I've been messing with small single ended amps for the last year. No matter what I try, the big sound at bedroom volume has eluded me unless I run a pedal for distortion. Bat is using a pretty elaborate rig for his tone, so I'm not surprised that he gets good tone.
 
I never liked the sound of any speaker less than 10", so I'm usually building a single or dual 12" for the small amps. The open back 2x12 is my go to speaker cab and I have one in the living room. A 5 watt amp through that cab sounds great. The cab is rated for a max of 300 watts so you might think it would be under powered. With a little amp wound out you are sending the cab a square wave with a ton of harmonic content. I feel the bigger speaker is better at handling that without damage.
 
For a 1 watt amp I'd likely go with a single 12" speaker. Alnico is kind of magic when pushed hard. An Alnico magnet reacts to the voltage generated in the voice coil and acts like a compressor. The voice coil creates it's own little EMF field that counter acts the magnet in the speaker, causing it to temporarily reduce the magnetic flux of the Alnico magnet. The response rolls off under full load. When you back off a bit, the flux comes back and response increases, as if by magic. So, my choice for the 1 watter would be a Jensen P12R or Celestion Blue.


this.
 

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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 21:53:53 (permalink)
bottom line is,
you really have to spend some TIME (and money) and experiment,
to figure out exactly what gives YOU the tone you want.
 
it is a combination of pure dumb luck,
voodoo,
knowledge,
and blood/sweat/tears.
 
no shortcuts,
and worth every minute IF you are on a tone quest.
 
 
if you are just looking for a practice amp,
just buy the little blackstar and be done with it!!
 
otherwise, 
carry on with full prejudice.
 
 

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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/12 22:43:03 (permalink)
Very interesting, Ampfixer......more studying to do.


Bat, Is the Webber pretty hard on tubes, do you have to change them every 3 months like the site says?

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batsbrew
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/13 12:20:15 (permalink)
it's no harder on tubes, than if you ran your amp at the same volume without the attenuator.
 
i don't drive my amp wide open very often, and when i do, it's only for saturation of the power amp section and transformer, mostly for compression effect.
 
but, my amp happens to be very touchy on the master volume, between quiet and loud, and the attenuator allows me to get the power section engaged enough to be a tone item, without any real saturation (boogies are made to have high headroom on the power section, and the tone and sustain comes from the preamp)
 
for me, i get the 'sweet spot' of the amp working, but at a manageable volume.
 
my power tubes last just as long as they would if i unplugged the attenuator and just played really loud.

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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/13 18:01:27 (permalink)
I love my MK IIB. I have a 12" MB Black Shadow (EVM I believe) that I use. To get the tone I want with this setup, it has to be loud.

Bat ain't kidding about the headroom either! To get the power tubes to distort takes a lot of volume. But when it screams, it's beautiful!

I recently sent it through a Egnator Rebel 1x12 cab and the tone was really good at a decent volume level. Made me think that I really was liking the speaker breakup a lot. And this speaker broke up quicker than those MB BS speakers. Volume didn't need to be nearly as loud.

And to add another dimension here, I really enjoy playing a amp SIM out of my KRK monitors. Something about the dampening factor I am guessing. Don't really know. But I do like it.

So to sum it up, speakers make a big difference.

Grem

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michaelhanson
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/14 16:59:00 (permalink)
Stopped at GC to demo the Blackstar again. Didn't like it. To fizzy and brittle to my ears. Nasally may be a better description. I think I am learning toward the attenuator idea that Bat has suggested, seeing as I really like the tone of the Classic 50 already. A Webber may be on my wish list.

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batsbrew
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 16:46:44 (permalink)
well, the thing about attenuators is,
if you use them to take a large watt amp down to bedroom volume,
they will sound like sh!t.
 
LOL
they all do..
 
but if you match the best volume of your amp with the master volume as low as it can go and STILL get a really good tone,
then attenuate a few db off that,
that's where attenuators work the best.
 
 
otherwise, any solid state cheapy will probably sound decent at bedroom volume.
 
honestly, if it was me, wanting a 'bedroom amp', i'd buy a POD and put it thru my monitors or a stereo.
 
 

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batsbrew
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 16:52:19 (permalink)

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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 17:12:19 (permalink)
I have been wanting to get one of these amps for years …
I called Tris up around 5 years ago to find out how long I would have to wait before it shipped …
at the time it was a number of months  ..I passed …fwiw….i still want one 
 
http://www.mahaffayamps.com/little-lanilei-quarter-watt.htm 
 
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michaelhanson
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 18:25:31 (permalink)
Bat,

Right now I can get a fairly descent tone through the drive channel and just use the Master volume, to lower the level. I can also crank up the clean channel, engage an overdrive pedal and then lower the volume on the pedal down to bedroom level....and that is a pretty usable tone. I was hoping that an attenuator might give me a little more of that power tube magic, get the tubes a little hotter and push them a little more.

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michaelhanson
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 18:28:37 (permalink)
Kenny, that little amp looks like it is using the same tube combo as the Blackstar.

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michaelhanson
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 18:34:21 (permalink)
The other options I have been looking into are just to improve the tone a little as well. The tube store has a new
Preferred Series 7025 / 12AX7, that folks are liking better than the JJ's that I got in V1 and V2. I could also try some earlier break up EL84s; all of these options may get me to a better, low volume tone, if combined.

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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 19:23:11 (permalink)
MakeShift
Kenny, that little amp looks like it is using the same tube combo as the Blackstar.



MakeShift , 
Right now I could go and take an inventory of all the tubes that are in my 3 main amps 
the 1966 Vibrolux , The 1976 Marshall and my 1983 Super Champ  …I won't even bring in my newer Marshall or my other fender amps into the conversation ….
I guarantee that if I drove on down to the guitar center that is 10 miles from my place that I could probably find a dozen or so  Made in China amps that use many of the same tubes …
 
the amp I mentioned was only a possible recommendation , it was not like I went up to the mountain and waited for Moses to get done so I could talk to the burning bush and come here and have anybody else's answers 
I was just giving you a possible heads up on a super cool amp .
I know first hand that finding one to play out of is almost impossible ….
I have checked one out in person …to say that amp is anything like a blackstar …..
it is handmade in the USA  one at a time by the guy that designed it…it's been out maybe 10 years 
the circuit and design is all original ,  at the time this amp  came out , there was absolutely nothing on the market that could touch it  …
we all have our opinions , tone is subjective , I hope you find what you are looking for . 
Honestly , if I had the money to spend I would buy a Carr Rambler or an Emery Super Baby  problem solved 
good luck in your search .
 
Kenny
 
 
 

                   
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The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
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#23
michaelhanson
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 21:20:04 (permalink)
Kenny,

Sorry if I offended you in anyway. I did not mean to imply that the amp you suggested was anything like a Blackstar in any way. I just found it interesting that they appeared to be using the same tube configuration. If a Behringer amp uses the same tubes as a Marshall, I don't expect the quality to be the same. 😊

I am not really on some great tone quest at all. I started playing over 35 years ago and have not lost a single bit of enthusiasm for this instrument. I can't see anything changing in the next 35 years. I continue to listen, learn and play.


Bat, I wish I could afford one of those mini Marshall's, it's just not on my horizon right now. One of those lovely' would be my 1st choice. I have a boy in college, senior year; and a girl following him up in 3 years. They are both bleeding me dry....need I say more.

Mike

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#24
batsbrew
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 21:58:51 (permalink)
makeshift...
 
some homework for you
 
http://www.tedweber.com/atten.htm
 
my unit
https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/masslite.htm
look at the 50 watt version....
 
 
this one has the most control, but was overkill for me
 
https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/mass.htm
 
 
i prefer these over the marshall power brake, the original scholz power soak, the THD Hotplate, the Dr Z brakelight, and in my opinion, anything that costs a dollar more than the webers is too expensive, and once you get into the higher price ranges of the elite attenuators (Rivera rock crusher, aracom, Ultimate, faustine, etc).......
you should just invest in a low watt tube recording amp (like that emery, many others to choose from)
 
but kenny hit on a good thing, 
and that's a simple Fender Champ.
 
jeff Beck used on to record most all of his guitar tracks on his last album.....
 

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#25
kennywtelejazz
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 22:13:15 (permalink)
I love tube amps and I never get tired of talking about them …or playing out of them 
I'm not offended at all , when I was interested in buying the amp I mentioned  I called up the amp designer long distance and talked with him for about a half an hour ..the amp is a 1/4 watt amp and he wired up one of the tubes in a non conventional way …don't quote me on this , it has been a few years , i think he mentioned splitting one of the tubes and only using part of it in the circuit ….some how he got it to MAX out at a 1 /4 watt  where it performs optimally at conversation levels …
any way the mini Marshall sounds like a good choice ,
I have the Class 5 combo , I've giged with it in small clubs and I love the thing …running my SG w P 90's into that through my pedal board has given me one of the best sounds I have ever gotten …
living in an apt sucks , so I end up having to record direct …
honestly I hate it ……from an acting stand point of view I would say  it feels like being a really good actor w chops and always getting sucky roles to play 
 
have a good one MakeShift , 
 
Kenny

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=427899



#26
michaelhanson
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 22:31:41 (permalink)
I think that the quest that I have been on has spanned several years now. I came to the realization that I will probably never play again in a situation where I will require anything near 50w of tube power. Lord knows, cranking it in a Church Worship service situation is not going to fly. I have been on a quest to down size and still have the tone I am used to.

Maybe 5-15w is really what I am after.....but 5w can still be VERY loud in power tube territory. 5w and the Webber, maybe what is needed. 😀

Kenny, it was several years back that I messed around some with a Marshall Class 5 and I liked it. They have discontinued them since. I have never really messed with a Champ much, but maybe I need to spend a little time with one. Are there any recommended Champs more than another model Champ? I know there are quite a few. The EC Champ is out of my budget, I'm sure.
post edited by MakeShift - 2014/12/15 22:59:36

Mike

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#27
michaelhanson
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 22:54:39 (permalink)
Well, I just checked out Champs on eBay......holy crud....I guess there is a whole cult based around old vintage high priced Champs. Yikes!

Mike

https://soundcloud.com/michaeljhanson
https://www.facebook.com/michaeljhanson.music
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#28
batsbrew
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 23:11:08 (permalink)
ceriatone makes a great clone of a champ.
 

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Bats Brew albums:
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"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
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#29
Grem
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Re: 1W Amp Tube Amp Question 2014/12/15 23:16:26 (permalink)
I had an original Power Soak. Didn't like it. But to be fair, I was using JBL K series 12" in a 2x12 cab. Not exactly the right speakers to get the sound i was after. But boy did they sound good clean!

And I was young.😊

Grem

Michael
 
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#30
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