omtayslick
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32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
I noticed in the detailed comparison chart between X1 essential, studio, and producer that essential has a 32 bit mix engine, while studio and producer have a 64 bit mix engine. How much real world difference is there between 32 and 64?
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Psychobillybob
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/23 23:51:38
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I think we get into area's of code here that are negligible...so it might depend on what you are mixing...obviously will require more cpu power (or time) which of course should improve your user experience by a factor of whatever the delta is between what you had and what you get...
Technically speaking the rounding errors in a 32 bit engine should fall way below normal perception and going up to a 64 bit engine does not simply double the math headroom...it moves it up a logarithmic scale...
Basically in terms of a user experience and hearing math artifacts a 64 bit engine should not have ANY that you can hear...but in truth that applies to a 32 bit engine as well since the range of human hearing is a fairly known metric...
Without trying to dumb down an answer the answer should be none...if you're getting noticeable math errors that create artifacts in a mix engine you've got bad code...its just an additional feature for those who are more impressed with specs than they are with their own creativity...
I'm using SOnar Platinium on a 6 core Lynx Audio machine and a ton of vintage pre-amps/eq's/comps I build for fun and sometimes money, REDD.47/API/Neve I also use the UAD stuff, and also use a Macbook Logic 9 through Apogee...
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Bub 
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 00:08:39
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Excellent response Psychobillybob.
IIRC, the only time there is an audible difference between 32 and 64 bit is on things such as reverb tails, and even then it's so subtle you have to solo the track and turn the volume up quite a ways to hear the difference.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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guitartrek
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 00:12:37
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I don't beleive there is any difference in the mixing algorythms between 32 bit and 64 bit operating systems. The advantages of 64 bit are that you can access a ton more memory and the operating system can "breath" easier. However, I don't know the difference between Sonar Studio and Sonar producer.
post edited by guitartrek - 2012/08/24 07:34:35
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RogerH
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 00:25:38
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64 bit mix engine is not the same thing as a 64 bit OS. The 64 bit engine can run on a 32 bit version of windows
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John
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 00:39:46
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Roger is right. There is a difference between a 32 bit audio engine and a 64 bit one. Nether has anything to do with OS bit depth. CW has been allowing this for some time now and it is up to the user which engine to use. I believe they introduced this in Sonar 5. You can, for example, choose to use the 32 bit audio engine in 64 bit X1 and the 64 bit audio engine in the 32 bit X1.
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Freddie H
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 03:04:47
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omtayslick
I noticed in the detailed comparison chart between X1 essential, studio, and producer that essential has a 32 bit mix engine, while studio and producer have a 64 bit mix engine. How much real world difference is there between 32 and 64?
Yes, x64 sounds best and its audible/hearable too.
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Freddie H
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 03:06:35
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-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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CJaysMusic
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 12:52:34
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I think there is allot of mistaken identity between Windows Architecture and the 64bit engine. There entirety 2 completely utterly different in every which way and have no bearing on what windows you use and have. Ya follow?
Cj
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Bub
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 13:02:27
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There is absolutely no audible difference when exporting with the 64bit engine on 95% of the time. I've done extensive testing, so have others. Like I said before, the only time you will hear a slight difference is when listening to effects such as reverb, and it's such a slight difference it's not worth worrying about. Download the demo of X1, load some of your projects in it or do some quick ones (guitar, bass, vocal), and export them with and without the 64bit Audio Engine turned on. Decide for yourself because almost all of us who have replied to you in this thread have been arguing with each other about this for years, and no one as of yet has come up with a definitive answer.  So, get the demo, do an A-B comparison, and decide for yourself.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Bub
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 13:04:22
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I wanted to add ... if you want to be really anal about it, do a null test. That's how I tested it. Export a project without 64bit Engine, export the same project with 64bit Engine, make sure the 64bit Engine is off, import both exports back in to Sonar making sure it is set to import at original bit depth, and reverse the phase on one of the tracks. The difference you hear will be the difference between the 32bit Engine and the 64bit Engine. Good luck! It's always fun doing these tests! Edited for clarity.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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konradh
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 13:11:24
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psychobillybob, Are you in movies? Psycho hillbillies and rednecks are pretty popular. I am sure someone named "pyschobillybob" could get an acting job operating a run down gas station in the country outside cell phone range where cheerleaders stop before getting murdered with a pick-axe. Or you could be the caretaker on a resort island where college girls go on spring break and there is only one boat a week out and the water is full of vampire zombie sharks and the electricity goes off all the time.
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mleghorn
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 13:17:27
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I have X1 Studio, and when I export to audio I have a check box to use the 64-bit engine. Will that go away in X2 Studio?
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scook
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 13:25:26
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VariousArtist
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 13:25:58
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omtayslick
I noticed in the detailed comparison chart between X1 essential, studio, and producer that essential has a 32 bit mix engine, while studio and producer have a 64 bit mix engine. How much real world difference is there between 32 and 64?
Any music being processed, or mixed, within your DAW comes down to a lot of number crunching on an internal, programming level. There's an inherent limit to how much accuracy can be maintained between calculations, which means that there is always going to be some truncation or rounding of the numbers involved. This ultimately translates back into the audio we hear, so the higher the accuracy the better the audio. It stands to reason that a 64-bit audio engine is going to better than a 32-bit engine. Whether you opt to go 64-bit or not depends on a few factors, in order of my priority: 1) can your system handle the additional processing 2) do you care about (or can you tell) the difference If your system can handle it, then I'd recommend you use 64-bit and don't worry about the next question. But if your system is struggling then either you switch to 32-bit if the audio difference is not important enough, or find other ways to gain back the resources you need to keep it at 64-bit. I think for most general, consumer level projects, it's probably not a big enough deal to be worrying about, But for high-end professional projects you may want to consider that second question a little more carefully (although I'm willing to bet that if you're doing a high-end pro project you are probably not wanting for system resources in your DAW). As others have pointed out, the bit-depth of your audio engine is entirely a different matter as to whether you are running 32-bit or 64-bit (this boils down to how much memory your OS can address, which does help with pushing your system more with less noticeable impact). And then there's the other point about what bit-rate to render your audio to, which is another matter albeit more closely tied to the main point of this thread.
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Chregg
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 13:53:35
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i dont know whether im convinced about this null testing, wat it is, is trying to imagine why there would be a phase difference with two different files or projects processed at different resolutions, anyone mind elaborating on this for me ???
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Bub
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 13:59:26
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Just out of curiosity, because I haven't done it in so long ... I just did a quick null test on a 20 second snippit of a song I'm working on.
1 vocal with heavy reverb, 1 guitar with heavy phasing effect, 1 bass.
Exported w/64b, exported wo/64b, imported at original bit depth, reversed phase on one track, and nothing. Total silence which means on that particular project there was absolutely ZERO difference in sound quality between the 32bit Engine and the 64bit Engine. This will not be the case for every project though. It really is dependent on the effects used and how well they are coded. For example, I never hear a difference with the Sonitus Reverb when doing this test, but I almost always do when using Guitar Rig on the guitar track.
It's really going to depend on the effects used, but just because you enable the 64bit engine, it does not guarantee you're project is going to sound better any more than doing a project at 192kHz/24bit is going to guarantee a better sound over 44.1kHz/24bit.
Get the X1 Producer Demo ... do your own tests ... if you hear a significant difference then go for it! You're not going to hear a difference on dry vocals, dry guitar, and such. You're going to hear it in your effects because of how they are processed with the 64bit Engine on.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Chregg
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 14:02:54
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ive already got expanded bub, but i can appreciate the fact of time based effects coming into play !!! cheers
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Bub
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 14:11:18
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Chregg
i dont know whether im convinced about this null testing, wat it is, is trying to imagine why there would be a phase difference with two different files or projects processed at different resolutions, anyone mind elaborating on this for me ???
I can't answer that intelligently with details. All I can say is, doing null tests like this has always been the tell tale way to check for differences in files processed differently. If you go by just your hearing, it's too subjective, position, distant, difference in monitors, all that changes sound without the sound source itself changing. Null tests show the difference 'in the box' so to speak. At least that's how it's always been explained to me. Hopefully bitflipper, Ben, or Jim will chime in on this and explain it a 1,000 times better than I can. I'm by no means saying there is no difference between 32bit and 64bit, there is, but only in a small amount of cases and it's dependent on the quality of the effects you use. The other way to look at it is, yes, there are benefits sometimes, so if the OP's system can handle it, and he wants to spend the extra cash to bump up to a version of Sonar that offers the 64bit engine, then by all means go for it. It's not like he has to leave it on and tax his system. He can tick/untick it at the export stage.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Chregg
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 14:11:42
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bub i know you rendered one file with the 64 bit engine and one with it off, but what did you render the files as, one the the 64 bit engine turned on at 64 bit float wav, and the other a 32 bit float wav ??
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Bub
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 14:21:06
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@Chregg
The project I used was 96khz/32bit.
I highlighted a 20 second portion of the project and exported it at 96kHz/32bit with the 64bit Engine On and again with it off. No dithering either time. I ended up with two 96kHz/32bit undithered .wav files.
I made sure the project was set to import at original bit depth, disabled the Pro Channel and FX Bin on the master bus, imported both wav's back in to the project and routed them to the master bus, then reversed the phase on one of the tracks.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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omtayslick
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 17:58:29
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I am currently demoing the X1 Producer. At first I was quite taken with the ProChannel and other "Producer exclusive" effects, but after some experimentation I found that I can achieve similar results with the plug-ins already in my arsenal. And ProChannel takes up a lot of screen real estate.
Also it seemed like maybe the unprocessed audio in Producer sounds better than in my previous software, (Guitar Tracks 3) but I didn't know whether this is due to the 64 bit engine, or perhaps even a placebo effect.
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John
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 18:06:44
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The PC takes up the same real estate as the Track Inspector and far less than the equivalent VSTs. True, the PC can be duplicated with various VSTs, however it is a low CPU user and can be employed on multiple channels and buses.
To me its the single best reason to get X1 Producer.
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RogerH
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 18:08:29
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omtayslick
I am currently demoing the X1 Producer. At first I was quite taken with the ProChannel and other "Producer exclusive" effects, but after some experimentation I found that I can achieve similar results with the plug-ins already in my arsenal. And ProChannel takes up a lot of screen real estate.
Also it seemed like maybe the unprocessed audio in Producer sounds better than in my previous software, (Guitar Tracks 3) but I didn't know whether this is due to the 64 bit engine, or perhaps even a placebo effect.
Yes you can achieve similar results with other VST, but what I like best with the prochannel is the workflow "boost", and if you want to hide it in track view, just press "I".
A song from my band: Terramater My soundcloud pageSonar Platinum Windows 7 Professional (SP1) 64Bit Intel Core i7 Quad Processor i7-2600K 3,4GHz MSI P67A-C45 (MOBO) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600MHz 8GB CL9 (2x4GB) Seagate Barracuda® 7200.12 1TB Seagate Barracuda® XT 2TB
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RogerH
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 18:11:02
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John
The PC takes up the same real estate as the Track Inspector and far less than the equivalent VSTs. True, the PC can be duplicated with various VSTs, however it is a low CPU user and can be employed on multiple channels and buses.
To me its the single best reason to get X1 Producer.
John types faster than me and uses better words than me
A song from my band: Terramater My soundcloud pageSonar Platinum Windows 7 Professional (SP1) 64Bit Intel Core i7 Quad Processor i7-2600K 3,4GHz MSI P67A-C45 (MOBO) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600MHz 8GB CL9 (2x4GB) Seagate Barracuda® 7200.12 1TB Seagate Barracuda® XT 2TB
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Bub
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/24 19:07:36
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omtayslick
I am currently demoing the X1 Producer. At first I was quite taken with the ProChannel and other "Producer exclusive" effects, but after some experimentation I found that I can achieve similar results with the plug-ins already in my arsenal. And ProChannel takes up a lot of screen real estate.
Quite true. If you already have a set of plug-in's you are familiar with and are happy with the way they sound, you don't need the Pro Channel. Not saying there is anything wrong with the Pro Channel, but there are some down sides as well as up sides to it as you've seen.There's a lot of us who would like the option to not install it. The only plug-in's I use, besides a handful of free ones, are the ones that come with the Producer Edition of Sonar, so I have no choice. Also it seemed like maybe the unprocessed audio in Producer sounds better than in my previous software, (Guitar Tracks 3) but I didn't know whether this is due to the 64 bit engine, or perhaps even a placebo effect.
There should be no difference at all on dry tracks with or without the 64bit Engine On. Well ... I stand corrected ... I just did a null test on dry tracks with and without the 64bit engine on. I got -121.9db of sound when I did the null test.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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bitflipper
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/25 01:16:03
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It stands to reason that a 64-bit audio engine is going to better than a 32-bit engine. Unfortunately, there are many things in this business that seem entirely reasonable, but just ain't so. I would challenge anyone to create a musical snippit, exported with and without the 64-bit option, that even golden ears could distinguish in a blind test. That includes you, Freddie. Post two clips that differ only in whether or not the 64-bit option was enabled, and see if anyone can identify them in a blind ABX. But it's not as though the option does nothing at all! Here's what the 64-bit export option does for you, in a practical sense: you get to use double the RAM when you export.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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VariousArtist
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/25 12:07:57
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bitflipper
It stands to reason that a 64-bit audio engine is going to better than a 32-bit engine.
Unfortunately, there are many things in this business that seem entirely reasonable, but just ain't so.
I would challenge anyone to create a musical snippit, exported with and without the 64-bit option, that even golden ears could distinguish in a blind test. That includes you, Freddie. Post two clips that differ only in whether or not the 64-bit option was enabled, and see if anyone can identify them in a blind ABX.
But it's not as though the option does nothing at all! Here's what the 64-bit export option does for you, in a practical sense: you get to use double the RAM when you export.
I agree with you bitflipper regarding the test to distinguish the difference. But I stand by my statement that you quoted above, somewhat out of context. Mathematically there is no denying that a 64-bit engine is going to more accurately process the algorithms that occur within your DAW software over a 32-bit engine (the boundary case scenario being that there's not enough information to warrant a numerical difference, in which case the results would be identical). I know you know that because I can tell you are a smart bloke. You picked up on my inference that the audio would sound better whereas the point I was trying to make was that there is a difference and, whether you can hear it or not, why worry about it if your system can handle it. The only time I think you should be concerned about whether there really is a difference is if your system is not able to cope, in which case drop down to 32-bit and you probably won't notice anyway. So, in summary... If you have better gear or better options t hat don't impact your workflow by using them, then, well, use them. Regardless if you can really tell if there's a difference.
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Psychobillybob
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/25 19:21:31
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Much like I suggested...
And no I'm not in movies...unless you count real life...which would beat most of the recycled-rehashes Hollow-wood is selling to us...
One of the thing's I've noticed is how much "noise" gets added to the creative process by our technology, and I'm not talking about "audible" stuff here...
It seems like the tools we have (which are incredibly powerful for probably ANYONE on this forum) manage to create an "distraction gravity" that consumes and derails our intent and purpose...
I have heard amazing stuff recorded on a PIII using a soundblaster and a cheap Radio-shirk microphone into Fruity-loops...because the guy simply was not smart enough to log onto a forum and ask technical questions...
I'm not opposed to what takes place here...it just seems like very little happens in way of creative discovery process because we all seem a little distracted by our gear and technology lust...your's truly included...
64 bit vs. 32 bit mix engines...not withstanding...
I'm using SOnar Platinium on a 6 core Lynx Audio machine and a ton of vintage pre-amps/eq's/comps I build for fun and sometimes money, REDD.47/API/Neve I also use the UAD stuff, and also use a Macbook Logic 9 through Apogee...
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stevec
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Re:32 bit mix engine vs. 64 bit
2012/08/25 21:37:21
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it just seems like very little happens in way of creative discovery process because we all seem a little distracted by our gear and technology lust Ain't that the truth... Intellectual "fun" during these discussions not withstanding.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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