A Guitar cabinet - microphones - and a few questions...

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howieizme
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2006/08/03 00:55:15 (permalink)

A Guitar cabinet - microphones - and a few questions...

All of my guitar trakcs up until now have been recorded direct, and then sweetened with the Guitar Rig 2 software. I now intened to explore the world of mic'ing my guitar cabinet. I'm looking for suggestions on were to place my amplifier in the space that I have avalible for optimal sound. First a brief description of the guitar amp and list of microphones I will be using to accomplish this task.

AMPLIFIER: Fender Hotrod Deluxe tube amplifier 60W

MICROPHONES: Sennhieser 421, Shure SM57, Royer R-122 ribbon mic, Blue Baby Bottle, Rode K2, Electro-Voice RE-20.

I have two small rooms (12x9) that connect to each other via one wall. One room is set up as my mixing room complete with acoustic treatment, and one desk that holds my computer monitor, my audio interface, and my Avalon preamp. I would like to use the other room for mic'ing my guitar cabinet. Again this room is the same size (12x9) and currently houses my guitar amp, my bass amp, and my DAW which runs via cables into the mixing room. This room has a typical 8 foot sliding glass door, one interior door that obviously allows me to enter the room from my house, and a small closet (5 feet wide x 2 feet deep)

My question is, were should I place the cabinet for recording inside this 12x9 room? I want to be able to experiment with all of my microphones, as well as placement of those mics. Is it ok to simply sit the amp in the middle of the room and go? Should I place the amp up against a wall? Should I build some type of isolation section for the amplifier inside the closet? What are my best options with the space I have to work with. This is a new area of knowledge for me. I figured that I would ask my fellow Cakewalk users before entering the daunting world of internet research. I am hoping to get suggestions more tailored to my specific needs. I will be recording everything from thrash metal (heavy distortion), to clean blues tones, and everything in between Any suggestions, comments, ideas would be appriciated.


THANK YOU!!!!

Mike,

"DAW's make you fat".




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    7string
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    RE: A Guitar cabinet - microphones - and a few questions... 2006/08/03 02:27:08 (permalink)
    I saw this at a book store yesterday. The Recording Engineers Handbook.

    http://www.surroundassociates.com/books.html

    It looked really good. Several hundred pages, mostly about mic and instrument placement. I didn't buy it because I figuered I'm gonna have to learn by my own trial and error and bought a music theory book instead.

    I think its safe to say, yes, just put it in there and start recording. I'd put it a couple of feet away from the middle of the back wall. Giving the speaker as much air space in front of it as you can without messing up what is coming out of the open back. Try angling it if needed. You have some nice mics. I don't think you'll have too many problems.

    These reamp boxes might be good for you since you said that you've been tracking dry and then going to GR2. It converts the balanced line level from the DAW/mixer/etc back down to instrument level. That way you can run the already recorded tracks out to your amp hands free and have identical tracks to do mic/pre comparisons.

    http://www.danalexanderaudio.com/reamp.html

    http://www.radialeng.com/re-products.htm

    Good Luck,
    Pat
    #2
    zungle
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    RE: A Guitar cabinet - microphones - and a few questions... 2006/08/03 03:25:43 (permalink)
    My main area of playing is down tuned heavier than Sabbath metal. Basic idea.... 6string, E flat ,Drop D .(Les Pauls) I prefer to track completely dry it helps me get as much in your face tone as possible, basically put, I try to get all guitar. I can't stand fuzzy or fizzy distortion or honky mids so I always seem to have some EQ employed. That being said, I use 1 of 2 mics to record heavy stuff.... the standard SM57, but primarily I use Crown CM700. I haven't had much luck using a LDC to record heavy guitar. I'm sure it can be done it just hasn't been my preference.

    Any way... I have tried a little of everything but again prefer 2 mic and 1 cab placement.

    In a 14x14 room lightly treated and a small standing wave @ 400. I place cab, w/speakers toward center of room , cab about 2 feet off wall. I then place 1 of three baffles I made (1 is kinda a wrap around)about 18" off front of cab. Because I'm trying to get the guitar dry as possible I use the baffle to deflect as much room ambience as possible. I alway keep 1 cab with the grill(cloth or metal) removed to get mic as close to speaker as possible.(metal grills also rattle)

    I use 2 mic placements depending on the guitar amp.

    The first placement is .......

    On 4x12 I mic upper speaker (reduce rumble) no roll off, 2-3 inches in from outer edge , on axis, 1/2" -1 1/2" from speaker . Crank gain, Hit pre semi hard, EQ, 3:1 compression @ -3, manual gain make up.

    On 2x12 I do the same except I set the cab or amp up, on a home made foam block to help keep rumble down. Occasionally I will engage roll off (Crown)

    The second Technique is about the same except I set mic up on speaker center then turn off axis again toward outer edge. I use similar distances and still incorporate baffle. If need a little more high end I may rotate mic ever so slightly toward cone to avoid EQ.

    One of the things I have always tried to do micing anything up, is to get the signal as dry as possible. Being I don't have professional rooms or facilities I basically like to keep any extra artifacts to a minimum, this way I have a clean base to work with. If I had a better facility that would probably be different.

    Recording heavy guitars in digital can be a lot more problematic than slammin tape. Work with it and try everything you'll nail something great in no time.

    Sorry I kept to the heavy, its what I know. I'll let the other guys work out the other stuff.

    One more thing micing up guitar will give you an even greater appreciation for speaker and cab design.

    Good luck.
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    yep
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    RE: A Guitar cabinet - microphones - and a few questions... 2006/08/03 11:27:32 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: howieizme
    ...My question is, were should I place the cabinet for recording inside this 12x9 room? I want to be able to experiment with all of my microphones, as well as placement of those mics. Is it ok to simply sit the amp in the middle of the room and go? Should I place the amp up against a wall? Should I build some type of isolation section for the amplifier inside the closet? What are my best options with the space I have to work with. This is a new area of knowledge for me. I figured that I would ask my fellow Cakewalk users before entering the daunting world of internet research. I am hoping to get suggestions more tailored to my specific needs. I will be recording everything from thrash metal (heavy distortion), to clean blues tones, and everything in between Any suggestions, comments, ideas would be appriciated.


    THANK YOU!!!!



    howieizme,

    there are a billion and four threads on recording guitar in this forum if you care to run a search.

    you should put the amp wherever it sounds good, and you should do the same with the mics. Putting the amp up on a chair will change the sound from it being on the floor. Putting it on a couch will change it even more. Putting it in the corner will sound different from putting it in the middle of the room, and putting it in a closet will sound different still. There is no way to tell which placement you will like best unless you try. Just move the amp around and see what you like. Your preference for blues may be different from your thrash metal placement.

    Same goes with mics. There are two basic starting points for mic placement-- close and far. For close miking (which is more common these days), put a directional mic (SM57 is a good start) an inch or two away from the speaker grill, and experiment with different angles and with moving the mic towards the edge or the center of the speaker cone. For far miking, move the mic out of the amplifier's nearfield, to where the sound starts to "blossom" into the room and where it doesn't change radically with small adjustments in mic position. This is usually about 3~6 feet back, depending on the directionality of the speaker cabinet, among other things. Here, minute adjustments of mic position will not matter as much as angle and mic proximity to nearby reflective surfaces.

    There are also plenty of other ways that people mic guitar amps, including boundary mics and mics placed behind the amp cabinet. The only way to tell what you will like best is to experiment.

    Cheers.

    Boycott Monster Cable
    companies being sued by Monster
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    #4
    stratcat33511
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    RE: A Guitar cabinet - microphones - and a few questions... 2006/08/03 21:03:37 (permalink)
    Close mic with the 57
    Distant mic ( line of sight ) royer ribbon mic

    Always use the 3 to 1 rule

    Distant mic away 3 times the distance of the close mic

    Pan each mic left and right respectively
    Do a test record and match levels ( I use -3 to -6 below 0 )

    See how that sounds

    Rock ON







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    tunekicker
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    RE: A Guitar cabinet - microphones - and a few questions... 2006/08/03 22:36:07 (permalink)
    As a primer course, check out Bruce Miller's free online audio course. It's still under construction, but has a LOT of useful information. His take on Electric Guitar amping could really help you out:

    BAM Audio school

    As for acoustics...

    1. Placing a speaker in a corner boosts low end a lot, but tends to accentuate troublesome room modes
    2. Placing a speaker against the wall does the same, although not nearly as much
    3. If the walls in your room are parallel (most are, making the room a rectangle) then you will have room modes. Particular frequencies will be boosted and cut at different positions in the room relative to each frequencies' wavelength and the size of your room.

    What this means for amp placement...

    1. Try not to place your amp in a corner or directly against the wall. Give it some room.
    2. If you can lean your amp at an angle (many amps have those extra "feet" for this purpose), you'll cut down on the weirdness created by room-modes and give the amp a more even sound.
    3. As mentioned above, make sure your distance mic is not too close.

    Other things to keep in mind...

    1. Experiment with Polarity if you're using multiple mics. Often your distance mic will need to have polarity flipped. Listen to it both ways and pick the one that has the most solid low end. Phase issues manifest themselves most noticeably in the lows.
    2. Listen to the sound of your amp up close, and move slowly further away from it. Do you like what you hear? If the room compliments the amp sound, you'll probably want an omni or figure-eight mic for your room mic. If you don't like the room so much, you might consider a cardioid mic
    3. Listen carefully and place the mics where it SOUNDS good to your ears.
    4. If any of your mics have settings (Low Cut, Pad, pattern, etc.) make sure you play around with them. Often information from Guitar amps below 80 Hz (or even 120) can fight with your Kick and Bass, so it may be best to cut the lows. If you record REALLY loud you may want to use the pad on the mic.

    This should be a good start...

    Best of luck to ya'!


    - Tunes
    #6
    howieizme
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    RE: A Guitar cabinet - microphones - and a few questions... 2006/08/04 01:37:35 (permalink)
    Great!! I knew I could count on my Sonar Posse to get me started! Invauable ideas from all, thank you so much.



    Mike,

    "DAW's make you fat".




    #7
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