A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER

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musicmarkck
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2015/12/31 14:56:07 (permalink)

A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER

Hello everyone. Advice would be very, very welcome. I have encountered a new and sudden problem with X1 Producer: whatever audio tracks I add quickly change tempo. For example, I recorded a drum track direct from my Tyros 2 which, to my ears, sounded in time. But on playback, round about 1min 11 secs, the tempo drops, rendering it useless. This is happening with everything I record. As a test, I muted everything within the project and pressed play, keeping the metronome. And this kept perfect time with my Tyros, which seems to suggest that the problem lies within the software. Can any of you wonderful people help?
Mark
*** HAVE JUST TRIED TO RECORD WITH THE AUDIO METRONOME PLAYING. ALTHOUGH IT KEPT TIME WHEN I PREVIOUSLY PRESSED PLAY, NOW THAT I HAVE PRESSED RECORD, IT HAS GONE OUT OF SYNC. AND, STRANGELY, IT HAS HAPPENED AT THE SAME POINT IN THE TRACK (1min 11secs). TO SAY I AM CONFUSED WOULD BE AN UNDERSTATEMENT!
post edited by musicmarkck - 2015/12/31 15:12:18
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49 Replies Related Threads

    MelodicJimmy
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 02:12:02 (permalink)
    Is the sample rate the same between Sonar and your interface?

    Toshiba Ultrabook Laptop (Core i7)/ Sonar Platinum/ Windows 10 Home 64-bit
    10 gigs ram/ solid state drive/ Roland Cubix 22 interface/ M-Audio 88-key Keystation MIDI Controller/ Samson Monitors/ Sibelius 7 Notation
     
    #2
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 06:17:52 (permalink)
    Yes it is. I use an Edirol UA-4FX. Both are set to 44100. I tried changing them but Sonar automatically reset it. I have considered the possibility that the fault lies with my Tyros 2, but the tempo sounds constant and, certainly, the tempo change within Sonar is very noticeable. 
    The only changes in the past couple of days have been a Windows Update and setting up my daughter's new MP3 player. I am totally flummoxed.
    Mark
    #3
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 06:32:12 (permalink)
    Is this in every project or a specific one?
    Does it also happen when your Tyros is not connected via midi?
    #4
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 06:43:55 (permalink)
    Hello again.Thank you for your help.
    After the problem raised its ugly head, I created a new project. But the issue happened again.
    My Tyros is connected via audio leads. (I don't use MIDI, purely because I have never been able to understand it! If I come across as being technically-bereft, it's because I am. But this audio method has served me reasonably well, with two backing-tracks to be used in their entirety on forthcoming albums by successful artistes).
    I have examined all the settings, and cannot locate the cause of the issue.
    Mark 
    #5
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 07:40:50 (permalink)
    Strange. Does the tempo change always happen at the same place in the song? If it does, do you see the tempo change in the tempo field in Sonar?

    EDIT: What I'm getting at is that there may be some automated tempo changes, perhaps in the project tempo track? If you're particularly unlucky this might somehow have gotten saved in the blank project template meaning it will affect any new project started from that template.
    post edited by Sanderxpander - 2016/01/01 07:58:49
    #6
    jpetersen
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 07:58:44 (permalink)
    Anything untoward in the tempo map? (Alt+Shift+5)
    Or in the Event list? (Alt+8)
    #7
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 08:36:34 (permalink)
    You are very kind.
    I am going to take a close look now and see what I can find, based upon your suggestions.
    Mark
    #8
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 09:11:52 (permalink)
    Hi. I can see nothing untoward in the tempo map or event list. One thing however: I played an auto-accompaniment on the Tyros and recorded it with X1 with the audio metronome: all seemed to go well until I manually played a new chord - and that's when the two went out of sync. Could this be that my Tyros is on the way out?
    Mark
    P.S. HAVE TRIED A NEW RHYTHM, DIFFERENT TEMPO, AND RECORDED IT WHILE CONSTANTLY CHANGING CHORDS. BUT THIS HAS NOT AFFECTED ANYTHING!!! THIS IS BIZARRE.
    post edited by musicmarkck - 2016/01/01 09:27:30
    #9
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 09:20:11 (permalink)
    I have tested this by using the same accompaniment, but without any chord changes. As I was recording, I could clearly hear the tempo go out of sync round about 1min 20secs.
    Now, is this because the Tyros is getting old, the tempo has failed, but because it is fractional, it takes a while for it to become obvious?
    #10
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 09:26:09 (permalink)
    If you have not synced the Tyros and Sonar in any way with midi, it is possible that their clocks are slightly different. Initially I thought you said there was a dramatic tempo change, but if you're saying they just "drift out of sync" over time this could be a normal clock difference. Meaning, for example, the Tyros 120bpm is really 120.02 bpm.
    #11
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 09:26:44 (permalink)
    Sorry, everyone, but this might be worth mentioning...
    As you know, in the Track View, you get a "picture" of what you have recorded. I have examined this for the recording I just made, and right up until 58 seconds, the "picture" is in line with 'bar counter' (?) immediately above it? But by 1 minute, there is an obvious discrepancy: i.e. the recording has fallen behind the bar counter. All in two seconds. WTH???
     
    #12
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 09:29:58 (permalink)
    Hi Sanderxpander. Are you in a position to direct me to where I can learn how to put this right? (Although I am puzzled as to why this has only now started happening after 10 years.)
    Mark
    #13
    jpetersen
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 09:39:03 (permalink)
    What you describe is impossible.
     
    Are you listening to the metronom whilst you are playing?
    When you listen back to metronome and your playing, are you saying when you hit a chord they are suddenly no longer in time?
    #14
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 09:50:26 (permalink)
    It happened. But probably coincidence.
    Okay: just tried yet again.
    Used a nice Latin rhythm at 120bpm, well above its ideal. I recorded it with the audio metronome playing. And everything sounded fine until 2min 4secs when I swear I could hear the audio and metronome lose sync. I have listened back and, sure enough, this is the case. Perhaps tellingly (you might know much better than me) there is ALSO a clearly audible 'blip' at the point where the tempo changes. I did not hear it while recording. But it is there for all to hear on playback, every time. A sudden dull sound, then the sync goes.
    I know it all sounds ridiculous. But believe me, it is happening and I am at my wits' end.
    Mark
    #15
    jpetersen
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:24:05 (permalink)
    Wait: Are YOU playing in time to the metronome or the auto accomp. in the Tyros?
    Sonar and your Tyros rhythm section both have built-in clocks. Like two watches. They will drift apart.
     
    But I still don't understand when the sync is being lost. You say it is fine on record, but not fine on playback?
     
    I also don't understand how you are achieving the sync in the first place.
     
     
    #16
    jpetersen
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:28:06 (permalink)
    Basically, you can watch the sound being recorded. Just hit a single note in time to the metronome, your playing will produce clearly visible audio peaks. Do they line up with the grid as you record?
    And are they suddenly somewhere no longer lined up with the grid when you have stopped recording?
     
     
    #17
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:31:14 (permalink)
    "Are YOU playing in time to the metronome or the auto accomp. in the Tyros?"
    BOTH. I PRESS PLAY IN X1 AND THEN START THE AUTO ACCOMP ON TYROS AS CLOSE TO THE SONAR METRONOME AS I CAN. I DON'T NORMALLY DO THIS AS, PREVIOUSLY, I HAVE ONLY EXPERIENCED A PROBLEM MATCHING THE TEMPOS WITH ONE PARTICULAR TYROS STYLE. (NOW, OF COURSE, IT IS HAPPENING WITH ALL THE STYLES)
    "You say it is fine on record, but not fine on playback?"
    No, I heard it go out of sync while recording. It was only on playback that I hear this strange blip, just before sync is lost.
    "I also don't understand how you are achieving the sync in the first place."
    Good question. Once recording is over, I remove silence from the track, then line it up so that it starts perfectly in time. This has ALWAYS worked perfectly, until this week. 
    Mark
    #18
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:32:42 (permalink)
    "Basically, you can watch the sound being recorded. Just hit a single note in time to the metronome, your playing will produce clearly visible audio peaks. Do they line up with the grid as you record?
    And are they suddenly somewhere no longer lined up with the grid when you have stopped recording?"
    Okay, gonna do that now.
    #19
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:39:10 (permalink)
    "Do they line up with the grid as you record?
    And are they suddenly somewhere no longer lined up with the grid when you have stopped recording?"
    Interesting. I would say that, with this experiment, the loss of sync was gradual, not sudden. I could both see this (by watching the peaks as you suggested) and hear it. It stared off in sync, and slowly but surely the tempos were different. What do you reckon?
    Mar
    #20
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:39:31 (permalink)
    Mark
     
    #21
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:40:32 (permalink)
    It is as if these clocks of which you speak have parted company this week. Is this something I can put right, do you think?
    Mark
     
    #22
    jpetersen
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:45:49 (permalink)
    musicmarkck
    "You say it is fine on record, but not fine on playback?"
    No, I heard it go out of sync while recording. It was only on playback that I hear this strange blip, just before sync is lost.
    "I also don't understand how you are achieving the sync in the first place."
    Good question. Once recording is over, I remove silence from the track, then line it up so that it starts perfectly in time. This has ALWAYS worked perfectly, until this week. 
    Mark



    OK, now I understand how you are achieving sync. Normally one would make either Sonar or the Tyros auto accomp. the master, then MIDI the two instruments. But over a 3 minute song, you can get away with re-aligning the start.
     
    Are they drifting out of sync or is there a blip and suddenly there is a dramatically different tempo?
     
    If dramatic, can you figure out if the Tyros or the metronome in Sonar changed?
    #23
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:47:28 (permalink)
    With that experiment, it was definitely gradual.
    Mark
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    jpetersen
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:47:42 (permalink)
    Sorry, our messages are crossing each other.
    So you hit the keys as you listen to the Sonar metronome - then when you listen on playback, they drift apart?
    Can you see this on the screen?
     
    post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/01 11:00:06
    #25
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:49:12 (permalink)
    Apologies.
    They drifted apart as I was playing/recording. I could hear it. And, yes, I could see this happening on the screen.
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    jpetersen
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:50:33 (permalink)
    How could they drift apart as you were recording?
    Was Sonar's metronome not blipping in time with it's own grid?
     
    Edit: This has just occurred to me:
    Does the Tyros have a metronome, too? Is that what you have been following whilst playing?
    post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/01 11:07:14
    #27
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 10:54:31 (permalink)
    The metronome was keeping time with the grid. But the auto accomp was audibly falling behind the metronome, plus I could see that the peaks were also trailing (just) behind.
    In other words, X1 seemed to be behaving, but Tyros was not.
    I have tried muting everything within the project, then pressing play... and the metronome is in line with the grid. It is what I record that fails to do this.
    #28
    jpetersen
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 11:03:29 (permalink)
    If you are hitting a note on the Tyros in time with Sonar's metronome, then it MUST be lining up.
     
    So the auto accomp clock in the Tyros is drifting.
    If the drift is constant, you could try the following:
     
    1) Record your song as you have been doing.
    2) Align the start, again as you have been doing.
    3) Go to the end of the song.
    4) Move the mouse over the end of the recorded Tyros track. You should see the end lines become blue.
    5) Press Ctrl. and the lines should become yellow. In this state, drag the end of the recorded clip to line up with the grid.
     
    As long as the drift is A) constant and B) not more than a bar, you should be able to fix it.
    #29
    musicmarkck
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    Re: A NEW PROBLEM WITH SONAR X1 PRODUCER 2016/01/01 11:11:00 (permalink)
    I might well be misunderstanding you, but... I have tried what you suggest re. stretching the track, but this seems somewhat hit-and-miss. I have yet to succeed in matching the Tyros track with the grid and, even if I did, it surely would only ever be visual guesswork? It is well worth trying, of course, and thank you, but it does not correct the actual issue, which seems to be that my Tyros is losing time.
    #30
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