Helpful ReplyA Personal Problem

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Johnbee58
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2018/07/28 10:33:25 (permalink)

A Personal Problem

No, it's not drugs or alcohol.  It's a music thing.
Every project I've ever created I feel as if I have to open it in Audacity and crank the speed up 2.5 %.  Please don't ask why I feel as if I just have to do this.  I honestly don't know, but it's become sort of an obsession.  No matter what tempo I set the project at to create it, I just can't resist the urge to tweak the speed exactly that much.  And I'm wondering if that may be contributing to why I feel as if the overall sound quality of my stuff sucks.  Wouldn't doing something like that have a negative effect on the frequencies of a sound file?  Maybe the "sound police" will bust me someday for abuse of music.
 
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tnipe
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 11:30:30 (permalink)
How about when you create a project and find your tempo, increase the bpm with 2,5% then and there? I would think doing that in Audacity after the song is finished is detrimental to the audio. Well, people have had worse problems 😀
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bitflipper
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 11:58:32 (permalink)
That's an odd affliction, John. At least, it's the first time I've heard of it.
 
Although, come to think of it, I have a perhaps related condition. For me, it's a tendency to play too fast. Perhaps channeling the late Keith Emerson (I wish!). Then I have to force myself to slow down when it comes time to record.
 
The way I combat that propensity is to start every recording with a click track, over which I record a disposable guide track. Then I copy my little test tune over to my pocket player, wait a day, and then listen to it away from the studio. If it feels rushed, it's easy to slow it down (being a purely MIDI concoction at that point) and listen again. I don't know why guitarists and keyboardists think click tracks are just for drummers.
 
However, I would never adjust the tempo of an audio recording. If you suspect that stretching and compressing time negatively affects audio quality, you'd be right. 2.5% is probably safe, but I still wouldn't do it.
 


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Johnbee58
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 12:04:05 (permalink)
It's just weird.  I can't stand when the beat of a song drags, so that's why I feel obsessed to boost it.  But the funny thing is sometimes later on when I'm listening to a song that I've boosted (maybe several weeks or months later) it'll sound like it's dragging anyway.  Are there any musical psychologists out there?
 
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kevro2000
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 12:23:02 (permalink)
I'm a modern square dance caller, and I've worked on a few songs for the genre, lately. Square dance music pretty much has to be between 126-130bpm, otherwise dancers cannot work as a group of 8 in a square. One thing I do not have a problem with, is CbB's timing.Once I set a tempo for a song, its consistent. Thankfully.
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The Maillard Reaction
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2018/07/28 12:40:45 (permalink)
post edited by Original Pranksta - 2018/07/29 03:38:11


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fireberd
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 13:02:55 (permalink)
Years (many years) ago it was common to slightly speed up recordings as "it made them sound better".  I knew a lot of old Country recordings were not in standard tuning but didn't think about them being sped up as the reason they were not in standard, as that was the "before electronic tuners" era.  The first recording session that I did, in 1960 (at Carpenter's Music in Biloxi Ms), the engineer slightly sped up when he cut us a 78 of the session. 
 
The recording studio owner I worked with in he mid/late 70's in Kansas City told me about the speeding up, that he learned about working as an apprentice in a Nashville recording studio.  

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Johnbee58
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 13:31:41 (permalink)
I don't really raise it to change the pitch (although that does happen by default) but more the speed. I want to hear it faster.

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 16:57:49 (permalink)
Interesting.
 
I revisited one of my of projects and decided to re-record certain bits of it and ended up slowing it down from about 135 bpm to 120.
 
I much prefer the slowed down version

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fireberd
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 16:58:45 (permalink)
Best option is to do the recording faster than you think it should be.  Then the final product will be "faster" and no need to speed it up.
 

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bitman
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 17:42:39 (permalink)
I have the opposite problem. Seems every project is a tad too fast when done.
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Johnbee58
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 18:02:22 (permalink)
fireberd
Best option is to do the recording faster than you think it should be.  Then the final product will be "faster" and no need to speed it up.
 


I don't know if that would work.  I'd probably just want to speed it up more.
 
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Anderton
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 18:32:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby iRelevant 2018/08/01 02:16:32
fireberd
Years (many years) ago it was common to slightly speed up recordings as "it made them sound better". 

Very common, and not just for country by any means.  It didn't just make a song faster, it changed the vocal formant to sound younger and tightened the timing. 2% was a common amount of speedup, although some did a lot more (Gary Glitter's "Rock and Roll Part 1").

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slartabartfast
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 18:42:31 (permalink)
The sense of "drag" in a piece is more than just the speed of the tempo. The groove of a piece of music is largely a psychoacoustic phenomenon rather than a clock issue. You can listen to two different performers doing the same piece at the same basic tempo, and get the impression that one performance is leaning forward, and the other is laying back. That is the reason that quantization either via MIDI or following a click track does not usually impart a living sense to the piece. Subtle variations of the attack timing and emphasis and variations between those parameters by different instruments in the ensemble can have a dramatic effect on the feel of the speed of the piece. An extreme example is syncopation, which usually seems to add a sense of complexity and energy that is not explained at all by the tempo, and is usually interpreted as the piece being performed faster.
see:
https://www.attackmagazine.com/technique/tutorials/the-psychoacoustics-of-drums/
 
That said, if you are just not playing fast enough, then you probably need to play faster. Accelerating a piece that was played to a slow groove will likely not be as satisfactory, unless you are playing some kind of time shift game in your mind that is exactly correct in groove but at 2.5 speed. Most musicians playing at half speed will have a substantially different emphasis and timing than they would at full speed. Speeding up just retains the half speed groove.
 
 
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Johnbee58
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 19:53:04 (permalink)
I really think it's a psychological thing.  I remember when I was a kid (teenager) it seemed as if when I listened to the family stereo enough the pace of the music would gradually speed up, or seem to.  I used to think it was the old idler wheel motor that was in low end stereo record players back in the 60s-70s, but now it seems my perception of speed (not tempo, just speed) can vary from day to day.  And this is listening to digital stuff that doesn't use servo motors to directly play.  Theoretically, you shouldn't perceive a song sounding faster one day and slower the next when you're listening in the digital realm, but it happens to me on a regular basis.  So when I finish a song I pick the WAV file up in Audacity and use the Change Speed effect as a virtual  pitch control.  In fact, that's how I found Audacity.  Back in my 4 track tape days I did the same thing when I transferred the 4 track master to the stereo 2 track, I always turned up the pitch control.  So, when I started using digital audio workstations, one day I googled "Virtual pitch control" and found Audacity.  I use Audacity for other things (does a great on easy fade in/out and crossfades), but that was my first use for it.  I don't multitrack on it because I don't trust it.  It has a tendency to corrupt easy and I would go nuclear if I put hours into a project only to lose the whole damned thing because the stupid DAW got corrupted, but it's great for a few post production things.  Anyway, I'm glad to see examples in this thread of other people suffering the same "affliction".
 
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Skyline_UK
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 20:32:38 (permalink)
I don't suffer from this particular affliction, thank goodness, but I often start a project (I always start MIDI-based) and later on in the building of the song often increase the BDM, never decrease for some reason.  I assume it's an urge to add a little excitement to things. Also, I often pull kick drum beats forward a tick or two as I hate draggy drums and often ones bang on the beat seem draggy.  I routinely gradually speed up the tempo going into choruses which always feels right.  For an example of crazy speeding up as excitement builds, play the first few bars of 'Honky Tonk Women' and then the last few.

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Johnbee58
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/28 21:40:11 (permalink)
Skyline_UK
For an example of crazy speeding up as excitement builds, play the first few bars of 'Honky Tonk Women' and then the last few.




 
I wonder if they told Charlie Watts to play that way.  He's an excellent drummer.
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Euthymia
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 02:38:06 (permalink)
I can relate to this.
 
I always start songs at a slower tempo than they eventually wind up, but by the time I've recorded the final tracks, I've settled on a tempo.
 
I chalk this up to the fact that when I'm writing the song, I'm still working out the changes and therefore more hesitant and less confident both in the song and my playing of it. I may have finished it as a writer before I've learned it as a player or arranger. I also kind of write and arrange as I go.
 
My shifts have gone as high as 10BPM or more.
 
I account for it by just cranking up the tempo by 5 BPM over whatever I choose at the start, and it never feels rushed to have done that by the second day of working on the tune, so, good news.
 
The suggestions others have had to do it at the beginning rather than the end of your process may be good ones!

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chris.r
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 03:16:42 (permalink)
My advice would go like this - start your next song at least 10% or more faster than you'd normally go. If, during making the song, you'll get the urge to slow it down by about 10% or near, then you're all fine. It's just that your final decision on the song tempo needs time to ripe. If, on the other hand, you'll feel like your song needs a crank up by 2,5%, then you have to find a good psychiatrist. Hope that helps.
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emeraldsoul
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 03:36:14 (permalink)
Have you tried putting a boombox at the end of a long hallway, playing your tune on it, and starting from the other end of the hallway, running toward it at your top speed?
 
It may not tell you much but the cardio would be fantastic.  :)
 
 

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Kev999
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 07:54:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2018/07/29 21:37:46
Sometimes a song will flow better if some instruments are slightly ahead of the beat while others are behind. Otherwise some of the instruments sound can like they are dragging, giving a misleading impression of the tempo being too slow.

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Zargg
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 08:01:57 (permalink)
emeraldsoul
Have you tried putting a boombox at the end of a long hallway, playing your tune on it, and starting from the other end of the hallway, running toward it at your top speed?
 
It may not tell you much but the cardio would be fantastic.  :)
 
 




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Zargg
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 08:13:01 (permalink)
Kev999
Sometimes a song will flow better if some instruments are slightly ahead of the beat while others are behind. Otherwise some of the instruments sound can like they are dragging, giving a misleading impression of the tempo being too slow.


This was going to be my suggestion as well.
Perhaps not that well explained

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Johnbee58
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 10:41:11 (permalink)
chris.r
My advice would go like this - start your next song at least 10% or more faster than you'd normally go. If, during making the song, you'll get the urge to slow it down by about 10% or near, then you're all fine. It's just that your final decision on the song tempo needs time to ripe. If, on the other hand, you'll feel like your song needs a crank up by 2,5%, then you have to find a good psychiatrist. Hope that helps.


I'd need a psychiatrist just for the first part of that suggestion!
emeraldsoul
Have you tried putting a boombox at the end of a long hallway, playing your tune on it, and starting from the other end of the hallway, running toward it at your top speed?
 
It may not tell you much but the cardio would be fantastic.  :)
 
 


Thanks, but I really don't think I could find a hallway that long. 
 
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msmcleod
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 11:08:05 (permalink)
I sometimes feel the same with some of my material, and I usually try messing around with the tempo throughout the song.
 
Try creating a tempo map to slowly speed the song up, maybe 5bpm - 10bpm over the duration of the song.
 
It might not even need to be a gradual speed up throughout the whole song: you could try a slight speed during the verse up to the first chorus, speed up a bit more during the chorus, and settle on a speed for verse 2.... or you could speed up and slow down throughout the song.
 
Take a read of Craig's article on "Nailing the Classic Rock Vibe" - you'll see that tempo changes are a pretty common occurrence:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Craig-Anderton-Series-quotNailing-The-Classic-Rock-Vibequot-at-Sweetwater-m3758954.aspx
 
 

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The Maillard Reaction
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2018/07/29 14:44:48 (permalink)

post edited by Original Pranksta - 2018/08/01 11:47:10


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mettelus
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 15:19:18 (permalink)
Another method to consider (for overall tempo variation, not before/after the beat per track as mentioned above) is to actually perform the piece (no click) on one instrument and get that tempo variation (in general).

A massive pitfall with a DAW is "snap to grid" and tempo maps have traditionally been static and hard to manage. If you work ITB exclusively, realize that can be a massive liability.

Static is boring. Dynamics come from tempo variation, volume dynamics (why squishing everything is again boring), frequency content (fading components in and out), general motion in the sound stage, and the vocal (not only inflection changes, but also the words themselves).

A litmus test I do often is play back new tracks by listening to the first couple bars, skip to 1/3 in for a few, then a couple jumps into the last 2/3 area. If those snippets all sound extremely similar, it is a good indicator of the rest.

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Anderton
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 16:52:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby iRelevant 2018/08/01 02:27:29
I've done a lot of research into tempo changes of classic tracks (CbB's tempo mapping made it easy) for an article I wrote for Sweetwater's InSync magazine. It became clear that there's a pattern to tempo changes with the classis, pre-click tracks. Here's the link to the article.
 
Here's part of the summary:
 
One element most of these songs have in common is accelerating tempo up to a crucial point in the song, then decelerating during a verse or chorus. This type of change was repeated so often, in so many songs I analyzed, that it seems to be an important musical element that’s almost inherent in music played without a click track. It makes perfect sense that this would add an emotional component that could not be obtained with a constant tempo.

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#28
The Maillard Reaction
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2018/07/29 19:59:59 (permalink)

post edited by Original Pranksta - 2018/08/01 11:47:25


#29
tlw
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Re: A Personal Problem 2018/07/29 21:48:09 (permalink)
Subtle tempo changes are common in all kinds of music, other than sequencer-driven electronica (though are sometimes programmed in even there).

Having said that, a big part of what makes us feel a song or tune is propelling forwards or laid back is the time location against the beat of some or all instruments/vocals.

Shifting hi-hats forward a very few milliseconds can make for a massive difference in “feel”. But so can avoiding quantising everything. I often work with a sequenced drum machine, but allow other instruments to “pull” or “push” the feel. The most recent example being something I couldn’t get to feel right - until I tried not quantising the bass guitar, which as recorded was a little sloppy. Instant massive improvement. I guess my sloppy bass playing was actually more accurate in terms of what works than the “perfect timing” of the quantised version.

As for speeding things up, I’m more likely to slow things down. A fairly boring 120-125bpm drum pattern or guitar riff can sometimes become much more powerful and interesting when slowed down.

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