A Q for the guitarists about speakers

I realize this is a question with many answers but I figured I would ask it anyway.

A little background first... (or just skip down below for the question)

I have played guitar on and off for 30+ years. I have never been in a band and just play in my basement for my own entertainment. I have played for 25 years with the same open back 1x12 cab with a JBL E120. My current amp (had it for about 2 or 3 years now) is a Carvin V3. It is a bright amp on its own. 

I run a graphic EQ in the series loop to cut 10KHz on up. I like the tone pretty well with the setup but wanted to try a 4x12 to see what all the hub bub was about. I like the low end punch I hear on 4x12s.

Last week I purchased a used Carvin 4x12 with Carvin GT12 speakers. The Carvin GT12s are supposed to sound similar to Celestion V30s.

The Carvin V3 with the Carvin GT12 based 4x12 is too bright for my tastes. It is the frequencies around 2-4KHz that this speaker accentuates that I don't care for. It would be tolerable if it wasn't so bright. Turning down the treble on the amp just makes it muddy and muffled and still annoying. Cutting the frequencies on the graphic EQ between 2-4KHz make the speakers sound anemic. No punch and brittle sounding.



Now the question...
If I don't like sound of a Carvin GT12  with my amp (and I am guessing a Celestion V30 would not do it form me either), what speakers might I like?


I would consider going with EVM12Ls since I believe I could sculpt my tone better with these but 4 EVM12Ls in a cabinet is going to be heavy. The Carvin cabs are already 90lbs with the relatively lighter Carvin GT12s.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading :-)

maximumpower


I realize this is a question with many answers but I figured I would ask it anyway.

A little background first... (or just skip down below for the question)

I have played guitar on and off for 30+ years. I have never been in a band and just play in my basement for my own entertainment. I have played for 25 years with the same open back 1x12 cab with a JBL E120. My current amp (had it for about 2 or 3 years now) is a Carvin V3. It is a bright amp on its own. 

I run a graphic EQ in the series loop to cut 10KHz on up. I like the tone pretty well with the setup but wanted to try a 4x12 to see what all the hub bub was about. I like the low end punch I hear on 4x12s.

Last week I purchased a used Carvin 4x12 with Carvin GT12 speakers. The Carvin GT12s are supposed to sound similar to Celestion V30s.

The Carvin V3 with the Carvin GT12 based 4x12 is too bright for my tastes. It is the frequencies around 2-4KHz that this speaker accentuates that I don't care for. It would be tolerable if it wasn't so bright. Turning down the treble on the amp just makes it muddy and muffled and still annoying. Cutting the frequencies on the graphic EQ between 2-4KHz make the speakers sound anemic. No punch and brittle sounding.



Now the question...
If I don't like sound of a Carvin GT12  with my amp (and I am guessing a Celestion V30 would not do it form me either), what speakers might I like?


I would consider going with EVM12Ls since I believe I could sculpt my tone better with these but 4 EVM12Ls in a cabinet is going to be heavy. The Carvin cabs are already 90lbs with the relatively lighter Carvin GT12s.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading :-)

I guess I gotta just show up at your house and fix this once and for all, don't I? I told ya you'd hate the V 30 sound...it's just way too raspy. The eq you're using....the first thing I'd do, is take it out of the loop. Reason being, no tone shaping effects should be in your loop EVER. The loop is best for verb, delay, phase, flange and chorus. All other tone shaping effects like eq, wah, compression, harmonizer, volume pedals or anything of that nature, should go directly into the amp.
 
When you use this eq, is there a specific frequency you remove that helps things or do you find several bands help to take away the sound you hear? What eq is it and how many bands do you get? Is it a rack eq or a pedal?
 
Just some rules of thumb for you.
 
Low end: The lowest freq allowed in a guitar tone is usually 80-100 Hz. That said, just about every guitar player abuses this because they think it makes their tone thicker and bigger. It does not. It makes it walk into bass guitar territory. If you feel bass in your guitar tone when you chug chords, you're using too much bass. The object is to hear bass in a guitar tone, not feel it.
 
Low Mids: it's tough to say what low mids you may need added or taken away because every sound is different. The low mid "make or break" frequencies in most guitar tones will range from 200 Hz to about 400 Hz. Some need more in these areas for thickness, some need less if things are muddy. Anything muddy...this is where it will be.
 
Mids to High mids: From 600 Hz to about 860 Hz are where the tone defining "warmth" frequencies come in. If something sounds a bit boxy or just seems too chocolatey and smooth, this is where to be. If something is too piercing, adding some of the stuff in these ranges can warm it up. But if you're piercing, you want to curb where the piercing freqs are, not boost something else to compensate. But sometimes...we like the sound of our high end but need a little more thickness...so that's what I was getting at.
 
High mids and Highs: High mids give your tone personality. From like 900 Hz to 2.5 k, this is where you can carve up some cool stuff that makes your tone original...even if it was a tone "originally" created by someone else. LOL! :) From 3k to 6 k, this is where you dial in what I call "hard brightness" or hard treble. Most times 3k-6k will be the most powerful frequencies for brightness. From 6k to 9k, you're adding or taking away sizzle. Sometimes a little sizzle is good...other times, you're removing this. From 10k to 16k you're adding air which can actually be good when used in moderation. It depends on the sound and how much of those frequencies you may or may not have in the tone already.
 
So see if any of this stuff helps and if you can, try taking that eq out of your loop and running it right into the amp. That should change the color pallet drastically and for the better. Let me know how it works. :)
 
-Danny

Thank you all for your responses.

@Danny, I guess I am what you call am askhole. That is a person who asks for advice he never takes. I guess I forgot what you said about the V30. I sincerely apologize for that. I ended up getting this cab because it was only $200 loaded and Carvin makes well built cabs. I have never heard anyone say otherwise. Speakers OTOH...

I have 30 days, so I can take it back.

I am going to have a hard time taking the eq out of the loop. The V3 amp has a series and parallel loop. I use the parallel loop for effects and the series loop for the eq. It is a two channel eq so I have one channel in the loop and the other before the amp.

@Mike, on my other thread we were talking about impedance issues. I put my compressor in front of the eq and that got rid of the impedance issue. Thanks!

The V3 does not have much if any filtering in between the preamp and power amp section. This was by design. Therefore at higher gains, it is very bright (some say fizzy, buzzy, etc...). The eq in the series loop helps with that, a lot.

@Middleman, As far as reference music. I like so many different kinds. For my own enjoyment, I mostly (ie 90% of the time) play high gain stuff. I sometimes make clean backing tracks and play high gain leads over them.

I liked  the JBL because it is relatively flat (compared to a V30) and using the tone controls on the amp allowed me to change the tone a fair amount to suit my mood at the time. 

I was afraid  this was too open of a question to ask. I will just have to go around and try different speakers.  I just thought there has got to be something out there that is flatter with less high mids than the V30.

Thanks again for all the great advice!

Middleman


...I am more of a Fender guy i.e. blow up the amp at high volumes to get tone... 

Like Neil Young :-)


I like the V3 because with the JBL it was pretty versatile. I had one channel set in the "classic" mode with a lot less drive than my high gain channel. Sometimes I like that more classic rock sound. I just recently downloaded some backing tracks (Kansas, ACDC, etc...) and I practice along with those. With my new (used) cabinet, everything is so bright.


I will check over on those other forums.


Thanks!

I like these speakers. 

https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/

You sorta have to know what you want if you want to use these speakers because they ask you questions like

"how big a magnet do you want? What power rating are you looking for?"

"What kinda magnet and magnet structure do you want?"

"What sort of surround do you like?"

"What kind of cone material and rib design design are you interested in? Something with a crisp tone or something softer?"

"Do you want early break up distortion so the speaker really adds to the amps character?"

"Would you enjoy high power breakup that only kicks in when you have the amp cranked?"

"If you want the speaker to break up into distortion... which frequency range would you like to break up first?"

"What are you listening for in a dust cone? What size? What material? How bright would you like the speaker to sound after the dust cone is added?"




I have some of their speakers that are made to sound like Jensens built in Chicago circa 1959 and I have some of their speakers that are made to sound like Celestions made in England circa 1972.

They do stuff like that.

There are lots of good speaker companies, and Weber is one that makes a lot of great guitar amp speakers.


best regards,
mike

They can just sell you a blue one or maybe a green one, (red maybe?) if that's what you want.

:-) 

this might help: http://www.eminence.com/support/tone-guide/

Personally, I prefer ceramic magnet speakers but alnico will likely give you a darker tone. You may like some Swamp Thang speakers. I have a pair of Rajin Cajuns in my Custom Vibrolux Reverb and they are perfect for it. I really did not like the stock blues that came in it, tried some Weber C10Qs but they were too loud and more bright. There is a lot of info and clips on the Emi site.

One thing you can try that may help more than changing speakers is getting a Boss EQ pedal. I have both an EQ pedal and a Bass EQ pedal, the Bass EQ pedal will take all the flub out of a Fender amp. Either one will help sculpt your tone, high or low. I would suggest that you try either pedal before investing in new speakers, you'll be pleasantly surprised I think.

Julien

craigb


Or you could go to a website like THIS then just order the one you like. 

I've been wanting to try one of those made in Italy copies of the made in Chicago Jensen P12N for a long time but I'm too cheap to buy one at the price they ask.

One small additional comment...  Remember that most speakers need some break-in time before they sound their best.  If you can get the chance to hear what you want, at the volume you want, first it may help.  Other than that, you're in the same BIG boat with everyone else doing the buy and try then sell or keep game!

(And I also used to have a nice custom stereo MASS but had to sell it along with a couple of THD Hotplates I used to have too - oh well...)