timidi
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/01/29 20:43:38
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The amount of editing it would take to match a guitars real voice would never happen. Being mainly a guitar player, I think the beauty of the possibilities of midi guitar is to be able to play a "keyboard part" with more feel and the correct intention. It would be wonderful if these devices could translate guit picking and strumming to VSTs accurately. The guitar tone or voice is not an issue to me. I can always just run that on it's own.
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marcos69
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/01/29 20:58:50
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ricstudioc
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/01/30 12:12:43
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OK - downloaded the 55 manual, been poking around thru it...
It appears that the 55 does NOT have (internally) independent access to each string, ie each string can not be a separate sound. What you CAN do is, for each of the three sources (2 synth and 1 cosm) specify the output level for each string. So you can have synth 1 only on the low E, synth 2 on A thru G, cosm on the hi B and E, and so on. Obviously overlaps are possible. So you CAN have 3 different sounds spread out across the strings - but not 6 different ones.
According to the schematic, MIDI conversion takes place immediately after the 13 pin input - I doubt this is used internally, but it's surely faster (for MIDI) than making the conversion farther down the line. And MIDI output can be mode 3 or 4, so you can address each string individually w/outboard modules, or record each strings MIDI out discretely.
As always, interesting tradeoffs - they eliminated the 1/4" guitar in jacks from the VG88 (let you plug a regular gtr in to access amp modeling), but gave you the same routing from the 13-pin input. Absolutely no external control switch/pedal inputs - but it seems most parameters are available via MIDI (unlike the VG8, which is the most MIDI stupid piece of gear created since the Mellotron) - and I have an FC300 controller, anyway.
So - think when it hits the stores I'll be checking it out, there may be a place for this in my rig (actually, to replace 2 items with 1). The hands-on (and ears-on) will be the deciding factor here.......
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space_cowboy
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 10:42:32
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Spacey If you want to control synths with an axe, try one of these http://www.starrlabs.com/ I bought one maybe 8 years ago. It is sort of like playing the guitar. But it is way different.
Some people call me Maurice SPLAT Pro lifetime, ADK 6 core 3.6Ghz with 32 GB RAM, SSD 1TB system drive, 3 3TB regular drives for samples, recordings and misc. Behringer X Touch, UAD Apollo Quad. 2 UAD2 Quads PCI (i think - inside the box whatever that is), Console 1. More guitars (40??) and synths (hard and soft) than talent. Zendrum!!!
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spacey
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 11:38:35
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space_cowboy
Spacey
If you want to control synths with an axe, try one of these
http://www.starrlabs.com/
I bought one maybe 8 years ago. It is sort of like playing the guitar. But it is way different.
That's cool but to much of "way different" for me. What I'd really like to have is a unit that is "focused". I'm thinking the the GR-55 missed for me too. They seem to try and fit bells and whistles to satisfy everybody and to the point where it's junk. JMO I don't need a unit that loops and records...and I don't want to have to pay extra coins for the junk....and especially when they haven't done the first step correctly. (read on) What I'd buy; A unit that took the information as I play it and sent it into a computer. That simple. In my opinion until they can do that, they're missing the point-not focused. Just more junk to market. Spectrasonics could probably do it but they focus on keyboardist. Trilian is a fine example. Articulations are there for a keyboardist to apply. You're sure not going to do that if you're a guitarist. Currently I can't play with my style and techniques and use anything offered to get my playing into a computer (represented digitally). I have to change to use it. The first thing I have to change is my thinking. I must realize that I'm using a system that requires me not to play with feel but to pick every note clean with no articulations.... if I don't and I apply them then there is no telling what's going to happen....usually a reaction much like stepping on a duck. Well that's the first step isn't it? Taking the information that a guitarist plays and turning it into a digital signal that represents EXACTLY how the strings are played. If they can't do the first step correctly that says a lot to me. They probably would never let me do a video demo of that thing if it's anything like we guitarists have been offered to date. Sorry Space...just wanted you to know why I think that piece of equipment looks like more junk to me and really a good representation of what's offered for us guitarist's...and I'm certain you already know that. If you're a guitarist and want to go digital.....is there a device that can do the first step correctly? Just one step please and one step only. ( I really like Red October) I want a video demo of a guitarist playing one string with every technique that we use and it being fed into a computer and a synth with another instrument loaded, like a sax, and let me hear that sax sound exactly like that guitarist played it. When they show me that...and then show me that it works the same with all six strings.....they get my money. Until then....they selling junk. IMO. Oh yeah...the GR-55 just might be the best junk being sold....I don't know, haven't played it and the demo guy didn't cover all the bases.
post edited by spacey - 2011/02/01 11:40:29
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Mesh
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 13:36:29
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The GR-55 is totally cool and is exactly what I need as my keyboard playing is very limited. I've been looking into the Sonuus Guitar to Midi (G2M) Converter as an option, but playing speed (capturing it correctly) is important to me as well as everyone else. I'm not sure if this G2M can do that.... Have any of you tested this out?
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Jumbicat
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 14:39:59
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Spacey, I was under the impression you had hands on time with the Axon units. They do exactly what you described...It takes a little tweaking, but once it's optimized, it's incredible. Too bad their not in production.
I listened and watched a demo video of the GR-55 for the Japan market. The guitarist was quite good, but if you listen to the voices...they really didn't sound very good.
Win7Pro64Bit-AMD-1090t -4 GIG OC DDR3-2k-GTX-465-C300 SATA6-SSD 64G-Sonar 8.5,X2a - Pro Tools Digi-001, a few Axon controllers http://soundcloud.com/jumbicat
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spacey
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 14:58:23
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Jumbicat
Spacey, I was under the impression you had hands on time with the Axon units. They do exactly what you described...It takes a little tweaking, but once it's optimized, it's incredible. Too bad their not in production.
I listened and watched a demo video of the GR-55 for the Japan market. The guitarist was quite good, but if you listen to the voices...they really didn't sound very good.
Not sure why as I didn't list it as equipment I used and never mentioned it. I would love to hear some slides, hammer-ons, tapping and pull-offs done with diffferent accents and trills along with some fast finger-picking done with that Axon unit. Could you provide some audio samples? And should it be that it can possible do what I described which was, taking a guitarist techniques and having it converted into digital information, and it's no longer in production....I don't know what to say about that...I can't imagine a unit that could do that and not stay in business. The "tweaking" and "out of business" sure raises flags that something's was wrong. Anyway...maybe they'll get it right someday. And it would sure be cool to have one that would perform. Thought I'd add...more than likely the GR-55 is pushing internal sounds and features like looping, recording etc. and I wouldn't be surprised if the Axon that I'm not familiar with pushed "fastest" tracking and internal sounds and features probably like string setting or assignment options. The problem to me with all the units I have tried is that they simply do not track the guitarist. Should we find a unit that will track what we play FIRST then that unit will be all the talk. And if that unit that can track us does ONLY that....perfect. We can get sounds everywhere.
post edited by spacey - 2011/02/01 15:14:44
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Jumbicat
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 15:09:46
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spacey
Jumbicat
Spacey, I was under the impression you had hands on time with the Axon units. They do exactly what you described...It takes a little tweaking, but once it's optimized, it's incredible. Too bad their not in production.
I listened and watched a demo video of the GR-55 for the Japan market. The guitarist was quite good, but if you listen to the voices...they really didn't sound very good.
Not sure why as I didn't list it has equipment I used and never mentioned it.
I would love to hear some slides, hammer-ons, tapping and pull-offs done with diffferent accents and trills along with
some fast finger-picking done with that Axon unit. Could you provide some audio samples?
And should it be that it can possible do what I described which was, taking a guitarist techniques and having it converted into digital information, and it's no longer in production....I don't know what to say about that...I can't imagine a unit that could do that and not stay in business.
The "tweaking" and "out of business" sure raises flags that something's was wrong.
Anyway...maybe they'll get it right someday. And it would sure be cool to have one that would perform.
Sure, I could put something together...maybe a video too. Greed. Isn't that the problem with most things? Guitar to midi conversion is a niche market. Terratec wasn't making enough money I guess. After researching parts for the units I have, I found that one supplier of one of the components used on the main board, stopped production so it's possible, that's why they stopped production. Who knows. Slides, hammers, pulls, bends....no problem.
Win7Pro64Bit-AMD-1090t -4 GIG OC DDR3-2k-GTX-465-C300 SATA6-SSD 64G-Sonar 8.5,X2a - Pro Tools Digi-001, a few Axon controllers http://soundcloud.com/jumbicat
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spacey
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 15:18:14
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Jumbicat
spacey
Jumbicat
Spacey, I was under the impression you had hands on time with the Axon units. They do exactly what you described...It takes a little tweaking, but once it's optimized, it's incredible. Too bad their not in production.
I listened and watched a demo video of the GR-55 for the Japan market. The guitarist was quite good, but if you listen to the voices...they really didn't sound very good.
Not sure why as I didn't list it has equipment I used and never mentioned it.
I would love to hear some slides, hammer-ons, tapping and pull-offs done with diffferent accents and trills along with
some fast finger-picking done with that Axon unit. Could you provide some audio samples?
And should it be that it can possible do what I described which was, taking a guitarist techniques and having it converted into digital information, and it's no longer in production....I don't know what to say about that...I can't imagine a unit that could do that and not stay in business.
The "tweaking" and "out of business" sure raises flags that something's was wrong.
Anyway...maybe they'll get it right someday. And it would sure be cool to have one that would perform.
Sure, I could put something together...maybe a video too. Greed. Isn't that the problem with most things? Guitar to midi conversion is a niche market. Terratec wasn't making enough money I guess. After researching parts for the units I have, I found that one supplier of one of the components used on the main board, stopped production so it's possible, that's why they stopped production. Who knows.
Slides, hammers, pulls, bends....no problem.
I edited my post while you were writing this. So the Axom isn't bloated? I hope you're saying it was like the Roland GI-20 and just a coverter...except it worked? Looking forward to hearing it. Please include some keyboard (chord) vamping.
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Jumbicat
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 16:09:29
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Burr Johnson has a library already available on you tube. His video's are on the CD's that shipped with the units. But I'll be happy to make something.
Win7Pro64Bit-AMD-1090t -4 GIG OC DDR3-2k-GTX-465-C300 SATA6-SSD 64G-Sonar 8.5,X2a - Pro Tools Digi-001, a few Axon controllers http://soundcloud.com/jumbicat
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Monkey23
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 16:43:05
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I'm surprised anyone thinks this sounds good. I know it's a video so it's hard to judge quality, but doesn't it sound really digital and synthetic? I use the GR-20 almost every day. The idea is good, the tracking is bad, and the sounds are somewhere in between. I've also tried to GR99 which is closer to this thing here. As a guitar "synth", it's kind of cool, but the guitar/amp combos are exceptionally bad. I laughed out loud at their "Van Halen" sound. Please listen again.
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Jumbicat
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 16:59:35
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In this discussion, we're comparing tracking and the midi out. Yes, the on board voices are horrible. I'll try and do something using Sonar X1 and the VST's. As soon as I get home, I'll try to put something together. Unless wife has me shovel snow and ice....
post edited by Jumbicat - 2011/02/01 17:15:02
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Ham N Egz
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 17:35:24
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ricstudioc
. Absolutely no external control switch/pedal inputs - but it seems most parameters are available via MIDI (unlike the VG8, which is the most MIDI stupid piece of gear created since the Mellotron) -
UMMM, the Mellotron had no MIDI capabilities , it was purely an electro mechanical tape playback mechanism
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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spacey
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 19:38:29
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Jumbicat
Burr Johnson has a library already available on you tube. His video's are on the CD's that shipped with the units. But I'll be happy to make something.
I watched the video's. Very impressive tracking. The best I can tell is that it beats anything I've tried. He mentioned the problem I'm talking about with midi guitar and demonstrated a work around... He also didn't demonstrate articulation issues, if any. He picked clean and if he did any hammer-pulls, trills, bends..etc I missed them and caught only the slides. Of course none of it matters since it's discontinued. Thanks Jumbicat.
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rhynosynth
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 20:10:29
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http://www.joness.com/gr300/img2010.htmHey Spacey. Have you ever tried the Ibanez IMG 2010. A friend of mine had one a few years ago and it is probably the best midi guitar ever built IMO. At least that I've tried (which means nothing since I've only played a few) I've not tried anything new in the last two years but the Ibanez is built with a no expense spared attitude. Graphite reinforced neck and I think it it may have an ebony fretboard. It has a midi whammy and many knobs to send on. Also you can be stacked with any of the newer Gr's and used to control any synth/module with midi or software synths as well. If I remember correctly the mag pickups are pretty good and through the newer GR stuff. Lot's of stuff to google/youtube. Not sure if this is what your after but I figured I'd throw it out there anyway. http://www.joness.com/gr300/img2010.htm
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spacey
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 21:05:13
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Hi Rhynosynth! Thanks, that's cool.
If the Roland GI-20 worked I wouldn't be looking for anything.
All I'm looking for is a converter that uses a 13pin hexaphonic
pickup and converts what I play, how I play.
Ya seen one of those?
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ricstudioc
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/01 22:46:26
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musicman100
ricstudioc
. Absolutely no external control switch/pedal inputs - but it seems most parameters are available via MIDI (unlike the VG8, which is the most MIDI stupid piece of gear created since the Mellotron) -
UMMM, the Mellotron had no MIDI capabilities , it was purely an electro mechanical tape playback mechanism
Yeah, I know - owned 2 of them, racked my own custom tape frames. That was sarcasm, or humor, or........something along those lines. Other than program changes, the VG8 responds to nothing via MIDI, not even volume. Suppose I could of said "coffee table" or "a copy of Gentlemans' Weekly", but I was feeling precocious..... 
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Jumbicat
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/02 06:36:56
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spacey
Hi Rhynosynth! Thanks, that's cool.
If the Roland GI-20 worked I wouldn't be looking for anything.
All I'm looking for is a converter that uses a 13pin hexaphonic
pickup and converts what I play, how I play.
Ya seen one of those?
What stock voices in Sonar X1a would you like to hear being controlled by a guitar? Would the nylon guitar in TSS-1 be ok? I found that voice tracks my playing style the best with regards to hammers and blends.
Win7Pro64Bit-AMD-1090t -4 GIG OC DDR3-2k-GTX-465-C300 SATA6-SSD 64G-Sonar 8.5,X2a - Pro Tools Digi-001, a few Axon controllers http://soundcloud.com/jumbicat
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Ham N Egz
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/02 08:23:52
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ricstudioc
musicman100
ricstudioc
. Absolutely no external control switch/pedal inputs - but it seems most parameters are available via MIDI (unlike the VG8, which is the most MIDI stupid piece of gear created since the Mellotron) -
UMMM, the Mellotron had no MIDI capabilities , it was purely an electro mechanical tape playback mechanism
Yeah, I know - owned 2 of them, racked my own custom tape frames. That was sarcasm, or humor, or........something along those lines. Other than program changes, the VG8 responds to nothing via MIDI, not even volume. Suppose I could of said "coffee table" or "a copy of Gentlemans' Weekly", but I was feeling precocious.....
Ohhh you know BAPU has the lock on unfunny here I understand your reference LOL and frustration so you cant eve send it sysex strings with an editor?
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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Monkey23
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/02 10:34:34
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Jumbicat
In this discussion, we're comparing tracking and the midi out. Yes, the on board voices are horrible. I'll try and do something using Sonar X1 and the VST's.
As soon as I get home, I'll try to put something together. Unless wife has me shovel snow and ice....
Well what good is great tracking and MIDI implementation if the sound quality sucks? In this day and age, they should be ashamed of those guitar emulations. I'd be more easily "fooled" by a keyboardist playing Electri6ity or something. My guess is that this will be priced higher than the VG99 which was over $1000, so at that price sound quality is important.
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spacey
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/02 11:02:06
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Monkey23
Jumbicat
In this discussion, we're comparing tracking and the midi out. Yes, the on board voices are horrible. I'll try and do something using Sonar X1 and the VST's.
As soon as I get home, I'll try to put something together. Unless wife has me shovel snow and ice....
Well what good is great tracking and MIDI implementation if the sound quality sucks? Great tracking and AD conversion is all that matters. Once that signal is in the PC one can get quality sounds. That's been my point.....I can't find a AD converter that just offers great tracking. Even if the GR-55 has great tracking it's still loaded with functions that I would have no use for. Although I know there are those that want those bells and whistles. If it is a great tracking converter why don't they offer just that and leave out all the BS for those that don't want the toys?
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ricstudioc
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/02 18:54:56
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Ohhh you know BAPU has the lock on unfunny here I understand your reference LOL and frustration so you cant eve send it sysex strings with an editor?
- Serves me right, trying to take on the Master. - Nope, program changes only. There's a librarian program out there - but no editing is possible. It really is as dumb as a post, MIDI - wise. @Monkey - $699 from all the major outlets - compared to the $1200 for my VG8, and 400(used) for my GR33, it's quite reasonable. Sounds? Dunno until I can sit down with one, but seems like you're ragging mighty hard on something you haven't even seen yet. Jest sayin........ @Spacey - been reading thru your posts, gotta say - given current technology, I can't see how you'll ever be satisfied with any of the Gtr-to-Midi stuff currently available. Again, with state of the art, you're not going to be able to "play the way you play" and get satisfactory results - there's simply too many variables and unique gestures/tricks/etc to play on a guitar for any conversion system to make sense of. That's why the VG is unique - pretty much anything you can do on a guitar will translate - scrapes/slides/bends/taps, whatever - but that's also why none of the VG systems are "synths", as such. Find me a converter that WILL let me use the guitar bag o' tricks, and output coherent Midi info - and I'm there yesterday. Edit - If it is a great tracking converter why don't they offer just that and leave out all the BS for those that don't want the toys?
Agreed - but once again, what's happening internally in most of these synths is proprietary, not Midi-dependent. I'll pretty much guarantee ya - however good the 55 may track (and I haven't seen one yet, so can't say) - what comes out of the Midi output is automatically going to have a few milli's of lag. Just the nature of the beast......
post edited by ricstudioc - 2011/02/02 19:00:34
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57Gregy
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/02 21:07:22
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what comes out of the Midi output is automatically going to have a few milli's of lag. Just the nature of the beast...... What I know about MIDI guitars is that some companies make MIDI guitars. But, if there were sensors in the fretboard to feel the position of your fingers, maybe the guitar could anticipate the note and reduce the lag. Maybe it's already been done.
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Jumbicat
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/06 10:36:33
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http://soundcloud.com/jumbicat/axon-mp3 I know this is a lame demo, but I wanted to demo the difference of having common and seperate midi channels and how quantizing on the axon makes all the difference in bends and slides. This was recorded by Sonar using a Axon MK2 controller. I'll upload the midi file to a dropbox soon. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18343224/axon.cwp
post edited by Jumbicat - 2011/02/06 10:45:08
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spacey
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/06 11:42:59
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Thanks Jumbicat. I think Ricstudioc is right. Even if they focused on the converter to capture a guitarist techniques I don't think they'll be able to duplicate the interaction in my lifetime...at least it seems that way now. This is probably the best direction for it.
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Jumbicat
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/06 12:43:48
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Let's agree to disagree on that last point. Even the GR-55 would do better to emulate a guitarist style than a non-stringed instrument. I guess it's like the pilot giving up left seat...
Win7Pro64Bit-AMD-1090t -4 GIG OC DDR3-2k-GTX-465-C300 SATA6-SSD 64G-Sonar 8.5,X2a - Pro Tools Digi-001, a few Axon controllers http://soundcloud.com/jumbicat
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ricstudioc
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/06 14:12:13
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Just to be clear - I'm heavily committed into 13 pin tech, makes up 1/2 of my "full bore" rig. So I'm not putting it down - but when I'm running thru the GR, I have to watch my technique, keep it ultra-clean or the GR just freaks. The VG allows me to use the majority of my bag o' tricks - but it's NOT a synth, although capable of some "synth-ish" sorta sounds. And the VG has nothing to do with MIDI. I'm a bit odd as a player, I suppose - more than happy to pick above the nut or below the bridge, bang on the body, "gargle" the trem, strum the trem springs. Whatever makes a noise, I'm there - but none of this can be read by the GR, and even the VG has issues with a few of the weirder approaches I may take. I love the stuff - but I also acknowledge the inherent limitations using it places upon me........ Edit - Occurs to me: Don't we all change our "technique" all the time anyway? With all the nonsense I may inflict upon a guitar, comes time to play really fast (well, as fast as I can play - I assure you I'm not Guthrie Govan) my elbow comes back on the body, my forearm takes over from my wrist, I pull back the pick closer to the bridge - I change my technique to achieve my goals. When the need for speed is over, it's back to flailing away with whatever implements are close at hand. So is there really that much difference, as regards using synth tech? Temporarily adjust to suit the need, then go back to humiliating that piece of wood.....
post edited by ricstudioc - 2011/02/06 14:29:22
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spacey
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Re:A Roland demo
2011/02/06 14:32:13
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Jumbicat-Not sure if we're really on the same page....as I'm not really talking about anything to agree or disagree about. From what I've seen of the GR-55 it has the best tracking of anything I've known of or about using a hexaphonic pickup. I haven't had the chance to try it but there are very impressive videos of it tracking many techniques. My point is that I would like to have that tracking in a unit like Roland's GI-20 without having to pay for all the bells and whistles. If they offered say the GR-56 as such a unit like the GI-20 I'd jump in a heartbeat. Added expression pedal even better. It is the closest unit I've seen or units I've used to tracking as a guitarist plays. Should one want the full synth and all the bells and whistles then something like the MISA unit would maybe be a better choice...a choice that is of no matter to me as I'm not interested in either. I think what you are missing is my point that recording, instruments, synths, looping, effects, etc., are of no interest to me. All of those add-ons are inside my computer already. I see the GR-55 more for stage or performing or one that could be used for recording but one will have to pay a lot for added junk. A good tracking unit is all that I need. If Roland could give me a firmware upgrade on the GI-20 to work like I've seen the GR-55 doing I'd be set until they improved tracking some more. But whatever works for you and whatever you are looking for, good luck.
post edited by spacey - 2011/02/06 14:35:23
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wetdentist
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Re:A Roland demo
2012/04/30 09:05:17
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i just picked up a GR-30 w/ GK-2A the other day on Craigslist. and while i found that 90% of the internal sounds BLOW, they were not what i was really interested in. i was intent on finding out how well i could play my soft synths, such as Z3TA+ 2 and Massive, etc. totally blown away by how well the GK-2A responds, and haven't been this excited about new possibilities in some time. mainly, i want to be able to use this live, but haven't been able to figure out yet how to get the sounds that are being made by my computer/guitar to be sent back to the GR-30 (and over-ride the internal sounds) so that they can pump out of my keyboard amp. is MIDI OX the answer?
3.5 Ghz AMD 6-Core/16 gigs RAM, Roland Quad-Capture, Win 10, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Komplete 10, z3ta+, Z3TA+ 2, Rapture, Maschine 2.7 (MKI & Jam), Melodyne 4 Studio, Ozone 4, Jam Origin MIDI Guitar 2, Schecter Damien Elite, Fender Sonoran w/TronicalTune Plus installed, etc go here to hear Wet Dentist (2000-2016 RIP) my new sounds: The Das Kaput
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