aj
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A brief comment on latency
The speed of sound in air is approximately 1000 ft / second so in 1ms sound travels 1 foot. Therefore if you sit three feet away from your monitors, there is already a 3ms latency.
It seems to me therefore that if your system is stable and reliable around the 5-6ms latency mark, pushing it harder than that seems rather futile. Some of the posters in this forum seem to be upset that Sonar is struggling at 2ms latency when by their own admission the same setup works reliably at 5ms. Because other posters don't have trouble at these very low latencies, people seem therefore to feel compelled to match their settings, when possibly it might be more productive to relax, set it for 5ms and concentrate on making music.
just my 10c worth, anyway.....
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Lemonboy
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 07:55:35
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You are right except that sometimes the computer may say 5ms but the 'round trip' latency can be a lot higher. There a re a lot of much more knowledgeable people on this subject than me, but I've played at 10ms latency on my old system and it certainly seemed like I was standing a lot further than 10ft from the speakers!
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papa2004
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 07:59:26
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the computer may say 5ms but the 'round trip' latency can be a lot higher. Absolutely correct...
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 08:25:10
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Well, for myself... I've been running at 22ms roundtrip for 3 years. I never used input echo monitoring... I did it old school.
Last month I got a fresh DAW and I am able to run a 5 ms roundtrip now... and yes a few specific gotchas have shown up, but I've been using input echo for monitoring and I'm really enjoying this new modern way to work.
What's wrong with aspiring to get there?
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eratu
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 08:30:06
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Yes, it becomes a problem if you monitor with effects, in particular. You have to consider the entire chain -- interface in, AD, buffer, inside Sonar, through a plugin (which may introduce additional latency) then out the door to a buffer, the DA converters, then through the monitors, then through the air. Suddenly, for some people, it becomes very critical to get the lowest possible latency out of the whole round trip. If it works for you at 5+ms one-way setting, that means you are comfortable with 10+ms round trip, and it's certainly higher than that considering possible hidden buffers and other latency introduced in your chain, not to mention the air... but if that works for you, then more power to you. But for some people, it matters. A whole heck of a lot. And particularly for anyone coming from a ProTools or other similar background... they will never accept Sonar or any other DAW for certain tasks -- EVER -- until round-trip latency in the system is minimized. The holy grail is to run a DAW at 32 sample buffer, which gets it really close to PT territory, and even makes monitoring live with effects very viable. 64 sample buffer size gets close in my experience, but it depends on what you're doing and who you're working with... sometimes even that doesn't quite make it. 128 is definitely not good enough for a number of people I know and certain situations are just not gonna work at all. And 256 is just a plain, fat, NO, for real-time monitoring with effects. Just absolutely doesn't cut it. Well, there's your 5.8ms one-way right there at 44.1, so it's unusable for a lot of people.
And it isn't about relaxing... or kicking back and making music. Of course we all want to do that. If it works for you, then go for it, but for those of us who need the better performance at ultra-low latency, let us keep pushing Cakewalk to get there. It ends up benefiting everyone, anyway... we end up getting far more efficient apps with a lot more horsepower, and if it doesn't glitch at 32- 48- or 64- sample buffer latency, you can rest assured that it won't be glitching at your 256-sample buffer setting either, so you can have even more confidence in your DAW.
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 08:36:14
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So when I naively set my buffer at 64 last week (from my previous habit of 512) I went to the edge? I guess I thought it was routine and I was just old fashioned.
I can see the benefit of such immediate response... I guess I want 32 samples now too!
I settled at 128 over the last few days... and now I sit 6" from my monitors... just kidding!
best,
mike
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brammer
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 08:46:18
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Hey, I just want to TRY it at lower than 5.8
It might "tighten up" my tracks
Then again.... maybe I just haven't got the "game" to play tighter than it is.........
Wow, that would suck. It would mean I really AM that bad :-(
Brammer
i7-930, 12 gigs RAM, Gigabyte UD3, Geforce 960 Win10 Pro 64, Sonar Platinum M-Audio Profire 2626, Mackie Control Pro, Yamaha Motif ES Rack, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro, Music Labs Guitars, TH2, Guitar Rig 5, Superior Drummer 2.2, EZ Drummer, Kontakt 5, Melodyne 2.0 64 bit
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Dave Modisette
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 08:58:48
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I have two situations where I require ultra low latency. One is playing in drum parts where the drum sampler will feel "spongey" (for a lack of a better word) and not quite responsive. Two ms just feels better.
Also, when I've tried input monitoring, if I get a flanging or phasey sound, I find myself distracted. I know what's causing it and realize it's not recording that way but it still tugs on my concentration. If it affects me that way, I know it will affect someone I'm recording. For this reason, I monitor off of my analog mixer for live instruments and vocals but when using my drum synths, I have to use track monitoring for obvious reasons.
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brammer
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 09:16:01
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That's a great way to descibe it Mod - spongey
Just not quite on - by a few ticks
I'm a bass player - you know - the guy who keeps the drummer in time?? :-)
So if it's off a tick or two - I can feel it, I swear
Brammer
i7-930, 12 gigs RAM, Gigabyte UD3, Geforce 960 Win10 Pro 64, Sonar Platinum M-Audio Profire 2626, Mackie Control Pro, Yamaha Motif ES Rack, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro, Music Labs Guitars, TH2, Guitar Rig 5, Superior Drummer 2.2, EZ Drummer, Kontakt 5, Melodyne 2.0 64 bit
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downsouthstudio
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 10:04:36
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speaking of Spongy....
I installed S8 this am.
Im using a M-audio Axiom 25 to control midi (True Piano).
Im getting almost 1/2sec delay from hitting keyboard to note......in "record" mode only.
Im new at midi.....will you give me some things to check..please.
Thanks,
Jeff
SONAR X1b Producer, one monitor
RME-FF800
Intel Quadproc, 12 gig mem
2-UAD-1s,UAD-2
Mojave MA-200,4033,57s,58s)
JBL LSR4326P's,
Transport controller
Axiom 65 keyboard
LA-610mkII pre/comp
Roland elect drums
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Beagle
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 10:11:02
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Jeff - check your latency on your Fireface. OPTIONS>AUDIO>GENERAL will tell you what your reported latency is. if it's higher than 10msec, you need to lower your latency buffers. if you're running in WDM mode, you can do that by moving the slider at the bottom of that window toward the FAST side. if you move it all the way, you might start getting pops and clicks and stuttering. if you are in ASIO mode, then the slider will be greyed out and you can't move it. if that's the case, then click the ASIO button at the bottom of that window and it will bring up your Fireface's software. you'll need to look thru the fireface software and find the HARDWARE BUFFERS and decrease them to 64 or 128 samples to get your latency lower.
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downsouthstudio
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 10:14:17
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thanks Beagle.....checking it now.
Just now starting to use Midi.....so got a lot to learn............but haven fun.
Jeff
SONAR X1b Producer, one monitor
RME-FF800
Intel Quadproc, 12 gig mem
2-UAD-1s,UAD-2
Mojave MA-200,4033,57s,58s)
JBL LSR4326P's,
Transport controller
Axiom 65 keyboard
LA-610mkII pre/comp
Roland elect drums
Guitar wall MY STUFF
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 10:17:43
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One thing to remember is that a MIDI soft synth should play at reported latency... something just less than half or round trip latency... if True Pianos seems sluggish then the round trip latency must be relatively high.
best regards,
mike
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downsouthstudio
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 10:27:27
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ORIGINAL: downsouthstudio
thanks Beagle.....checking it now.
Just now starting to use Midi.....so got a lot to learn............but haven fun.
Jeff
Latency is 2.9msec at 88.2............. Im recording at 1024 sample rate. If I change sample rate below 512 I lose the audio engine. Im trying to record piano with the new truepianos software. Didnt have this latency problem with S7...must have a setting wrong somewhere. Jeff
post edited by downsouthstudio - 2008/10/08 10:28:22
SONAR X1b Producer, one monitor
RME-FF800
Intel Quadproc, 12 gig mem
2-UAD-1s,UAD-2
Mojave MA-200,4033,57s,58s)
JBL LSR4326P's,
Transport controller
Axiom 65 keyboard
LA-610mkII pre/comp
Roland elect drums
Guitar wall MY STUFF
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eratu
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 10:34:26
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ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
One thing to remember is that a MIDI soft synth should play at reported latency... something just less than half or round trip latency... if True Pianos seems sluggish then the round trip latency must be relatively high.
best regards,
mike
Actually, just a slight correction here... a MIDI soft synth will normally not play at the reported latency unless you are playing back recorded MIDI tracks (and even then you have to take into account its own latency that it introduces). If you are actually "playing it" with your controller, you have to calculate in MIDI latency as well.. that's the deep, dark secret that few developers will ever admit details about. Depending on the hardware, the drivers, the DAW app and the other things going on in the system, MIDI latency can sometimes rival or exceed the audio card latency... and that's not to mention MIDI jitter. :( And we'll also not mention how lousy Windows is for processing real-time events like that. MIDI is a mess, moreso that most people imagine, and you could actually have fluctuating latency values that you have no idea about... I did some tough testing on this whole topic a couple of years ago and I found that MIDI interfaces are all over the map in terms of performance. I won't mention the bad brands (since they could have easily improved dramatically in the last couple of years) but I was SHOCKED to find that one of the cheapest brands, Edirol, actually had some of the BEST performance overall, with some really decent drivers, including reasonable jitter, etc... So I've stuck with them for the past couple of years. Just thought I'd add a note to this subject... back to work...
post edited by eratu - 2008/10/08 10:35:23
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papa2004
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 10:35:22
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ORIGINAL: downsouthstudio
Latency is 2.9msec at 88.2.............
Im recording at 1024 sample rate. If I change sample rate below 512 I lose the audio engine.
??? I must have missed something during this discussion...(not an unlikely situation)...
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Jose7822
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 10:40:48
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ORIGINAL: brammer
Hey, I just want to TRY it at lower than 5.8
It might "tighten up" my tracks
Then again.... maybe I just haven't got the "game" to play tighter than it is.........
Wow, that would suck. It would mean I really AM that bad :-(
Brammer
Don't blame yourself just yet. Even though Sonar 6 introduced ASIO Latency Compensation, the compensation is not total. IOW, you still need to adjust it in order to make it perfect (sample accurate). This has been supposedly fixed in Sonar 8 whwre no manual offset is needed unless you add to the chain (at least that's what I'm assuming). If you're working on either Sonar 6 or 7 then try this latency test out to make your system sample accurate: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1302373 (Post# 20) HTH
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brammer
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 11:02:43
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I tried a couple of things
My MAudio 24/96 software comes up with a "codec" rate of 22,500 - which I set to 44,100 (but it keeps resetting to 22,500)
Then I set the sample rate from 256 to 128
Then I went in to Sonar Options Audio and set the playback & record samples from 256 to 128
Then I applied it & checked the displayed latencey - it went UP from 5.8
Hmmmm.... oh, yeah - forgot to switch from WDM to ASIO
Applied that..... UP again
AND - Sonar wouldn't play
So.... I just set it back, got back to 5.8 and now it works again
And I'm back to.... if it ain't busted - don't fix it
But thanks for all the help guys
Brammer
i7-930, 12 gigs RAM, Gigabyte UD3, Geforce 960 Win10 Pro 64, Sonar Platinum M-Audio Profire 2626, Mackie Control Pro, Yamaha Motif ES Rack, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro, Music Labs Guitars, TH2, Guitar Rig 5, Superior Drummer 2.2, EZ Drummer, Kontakt 5, Melodyne 2.0 64 bit
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downsouthstudio
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 11:15:00
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ORIGINAL: brammer
I tried a couple of things
My MAudio 24/96 software comes up with a "codec" rate of 22,500 - which I set to 44,100 (but it keeps resetting to 22,500)
Then I set the sample rate from 256 to 128
Then I went in to Sonar Options Audio and set the playback & record samples from 256 to 128
Then I applied it & checked the displayed latencey - it went UP from 5.8
Hmmmm.... oh, yeah - forgot to switch from WDM to ASIO
Applied that..... UP again
AND - Sonar wouldn't play
So.... I just set it back, got back to 5.8 and now it works again
And I'm back to.... if it ain't busted - don't fix it
But thanks for all the help guys
Brammer
Im having the same latency problem..... I went back to 1024 samples, buffers at 512...still have delay between hitting keyboard and output audio. I "armed" the ECHO button and it seemed to sync up...........is this a fix??? At least its' very,very close to zero latency. Jeff
SONAR X1b Producer, one monitor
RME-FF800
Intel Quadproc, 12 gig mem
2-UAD-1s,UAD-2
Mojave MA-200,4033,57s,58s)
JBL LSR4326P's,
Transport controller
Axiom 65 keyboard
LA-610mkII pre/comp
Roland elect drums
Guitar wall MY STUFF
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downsouthstudio
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 11:27:06
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Im having the same latency problem.....
I went back to 1024 samples, buffers at 512...still have delay between hitting keyboard and output audio.
I "armed" the ECHO button and it seemed to sync up...........is this a fix???
At least its' very,very close to zero latency.
Jeff forget I said that..................My ears are deceiving me. Need to get out of the studio for awhile. So I guess the only "real" fix for the delay is to get a real keyboard with audio out. RIGHT?? Jeff _________-
SONAR X1b Producer, one monitor
RME-FF800
Intel Quadproc, 12 gig mem
2-UAD-1s,UAD-2
Mojave MA-200,4033,57s,58s)
JBL LSR4326P's,
Transport controller
Axiom 65 keyboard
LA-610mkII pre/comp
Roland elect drums
Guitar wall MY STUFF
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madratter
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 12:30:13
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It should not be necessary to "get a real keyboard with audio out. " Many of us use VSTs like True Piano and record with them. Somewhere, you have latency being introduced. Possibly you aren't setting the latency for your interface properly.
Another possibility is you have added effects to your VST such as Perfect Space. That can and does introduce quite a bit of latency at the default values perfect space uses.
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bitflipper
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 13:32:44
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The speed of sound in air is approximately 1000 ft / second so in 1ms sound travels 1 foot. Therefore if you sit three feet away from your monitors, there is already a 3ms latency. Right you are. But you're assuming that those short delays are inconsequential. The fact is that short delays are still detectable, although often at a subliminal level where things just aren't right but you can't quite put your finger on the problem. The actual threshold of perception is unclear and depends on the material, but drummers in particular seem to be especially sensitive to small delays of even a couple milliseconds. I know that even as a keyboard player I have a harder time getting down fast parts with fast attacks when the speakers are a few feet away. I usually record those kinds of parts with headphones for that reason. Guitarists, on the other hand, normally stand at least 3 feet from their amps (the ones who still have any hearing left anyway) and usually farther than that. And they don't seem to have any problem with delays, and would therefore be likely to assume short delays are inconsequential. But it's more about the nature of the instrument and the parts they play. For example, I can take a guitar part in a recorded song and move it forward or back by 5 to 10ms, and the difference may be anywhere from barely detectable to unnoticeable, depending on how percussive it is. But if I move a piano part by the same amount, it's very obvious that something is very wrong. But you're still correct - folks who are agonizing over latency are sometimes doing so unnecessarily. If you're recording real instruments, low latency isn't even necessary. It's only when you need to hear sound from the computer as you're playing that you run into problems. Personally, I just don't do that.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bapu
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 13:39:00
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I'm a bass player - you know - the guy who keeps the drummer in time?? I'm a bass player too. HTH do you keep (real) drummers in time? 
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downsouthstudio
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 14:10:09
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BOY....really having problems here......let me see if I can tell you the problem...
I use a FireFace800
My new problem is Echo on the vocal track when I engage the echo feature. I DID NOT have this before installing S8.
something ODD....along with my FireFace 800 drivers.... I have listed an ADOBE default sound card???? Sonar 8 keeps going back to the ADOBE card even though I click on the FireFace drivers. I think this is what's giving me all the weird symptoms.
In a panic here...so please disregard the typos.
Any input appreciated.
Jeff
SONAR X1b Producer, one monitor
RME-FF800
Intel Quadproc, 12 gig mem
2-UAD-1s,UAD-2
Mojave MA-200,4033,57s,58s)
JBL LSR4326P's,
Transport controller
Axiom 65 keyboard
LA-610mkII pre/comp
Roland elect drums
Guitar wall MY STUFF
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downsouthstudio
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 15:10:44
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper It's only when you need to hear sound from the computer as you're playing that you run into problems. Personally, I just don't do that. BitFlipper, But you give them a headphone feed...right? Just without the echo buttom pushed huh? Jeff
SONAR X1b Producer, one monitor
RME-FF800
Intel Quadproc, 12 gig mem
2-UAD-1s,UAD-2
Mojave MA-200,4033,57s,58s)
JBL LSR4326P's,
Transport controller
Axiom 65 keyboard
LA-610mkII pre/comp
Roland elect drums
Guitar wall MY STUFF
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donhearl
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 18:13:41
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You can run your headphone mix with no latency monitoring directly out of Totalmix. I never engage input monitoring when giving a headphone mix. I do insert an outboard reverb and delay (if desired) and mix that into the headphone mix channels. Totalmix is really powerful for all kinds of routing.
when tracking bands I usually set a reasonably high buffer setting, just in case.
good stuff.
Sonar 8.3.1, Core 2 Quad Q9300, 4 GB DDR2 ram, 4 X 500 GB Sata II 32 mb drives, Lynx Aurora 16, RME FF800, 2XUAD-1 PCIe
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Dave Modisette
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Treefight
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 20:21:38
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Jose - about this: ORIGINAL: Jose7822
ORIGINAL: brammer
Hey, I just want to TRY it at lower than 5.8
It might "tighten up" my tracks
Then again.... maybe I just haven't got the "game" to play tighter than it is.........
Wow, that would suck. It would mean I really AM that bad :-(
Brammer
Don't blame yourself just yet. Even though Sonar 6 introduced ASIO Latency Compensation, the compensation is not total. IOW, you still need to adjust it in order to make it perfect (sample accurate). This has been supposedly fixed in Sonar 8 whwre no manual offset is needed unless you add to the chain (at least that's what I'm assuming). If you're working on either Sonar 6 or 7 then try this latency test out to make your system sample accurate:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1302373 (Post# 20)
HTH
Did the bakers really make - or try to make - CEntrance unecessary in S8? I really enjoyed and benefited from your instructions on manually offsetting. Has anyone actually checked to see if S8 is really sample-accurate or whatever the term is so that you don't need to test and manually adjust? Thanks.
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Jose7822
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 21:40:27
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ORIGINAL: Treefight
Did the bakers really make - or try to make - CEntrance unecessary in S8? I really enjoyed and benefited from your instructions on manually offsetting. Has anyone actually checked to see if S8 is really sample-accurate or whatever the term is so that you don't need to test and manually adjust?
Thanks.
At least that's what the bakers said when the full official list of Sonar 8 came out. Yet, the question still remains. Has anyone who owns Sonar 8 tested if it was sample accurate? On a similar note, the work done to the ASIO driver model in Sonar 8 did improve the External Insert Plug, though it's still not perfect according to some of our forum members. So, anyways, who here has the answer to our question? It will be much appreciated. Take care!
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ba_midi
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RE: A brief comment on latency
2008/10/08 22:57:27
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Running AUDIO only can almost always work at lower latencies (other than live input/recording), but if you're using a lot of Plugin Synths/samplers, they will generally need higher settings anyway. ORIGINAL: aj
The speed of sound in air is approximately 1000 ft / second so in 1ms sound travels 1 foot. Therefore if you sit three feet away from your monitors, there is already a 3ms latency.
It seems to me therefore that if your system is stable and reliable around the 5-6ms latency mark, pushing it harder than that seems rather futile. Some of the posters in this forum seem to be upset that Sonar is struggling at 2ms latency when by their own admission the same setup works reliably at 5ms. Because other posters don't have trouble at these very low latencies, people seem therefore to feel compelled to match their settings, when possibly it might be more productive to relax, set it for 5ms and concentrate on making music.
just my 10c worth, anyway.....
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