Helpful ReplyA general question about life span of computers...

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synkrotron
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2017/05/01 13:25:07 (permalink)

A general question about life span of computers...

Yeah, like the title says, I was just wondering what the life span of computers is lately.
 
I've built a few desktops over the years. They generally only lasted about three years or so and then some new software, or even OS update or bit change would require an upgrade to keep up to speed.
 
I suppose it depends on what you are doing with them. For instance, I bought a basic Dell desktop for my wife a while back now. It came with Vista pre-installed so I'm guessing that Windows 7 was not around at the time, or, if it was, it was in its early days. So that should give you an idea of how old it is. It is only ever used for storing pictures and the odd internet/email stuff. Still going strong, and even stronger since upgrading to W10. Vista made it seem like and ancient POS and W10 was like a breath of fresh air.
 
Main reason for the question is, I bought my current DAW laptop nearly five years ago now. It has had a couple of larger SSD drives since then, but that's it.
 
I am finding that, other than a couple of CPU hungry VST effects, it is coping very well with SPlat and all I can throw at it.
 
Gaming wise might be a different matter, and I do indeed play games on it from time to time, but I'm not that bothered about it not keeping up because gaming isn't its main use. I generally find that if I use "Low" graphics settings then it copes okay.
 
Just bought a new battery... Hoping to get another couple of years out of it just yet

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#1
Jim Roseberry
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 13:43:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby synkrotron 2017/05/01 14:32:42
It depends on just how current you want to stay with software/plugins.
Developers will find new ways to use available processing (new heavy-duty synths, etc).
 
If you want to stay completely current, a good viable DAW life-span is ~5 years.
 
FWIW, we have many clients going on the 10-year mark.
If you're less concerned about staying absolutely current, the machines often last a decade or more.
At some point, if you want to maintain official support from software vendors/etc, you'll likely be forced to upgrade.

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#2
Mesh
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 14:12:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby synkrotron 2017/05/01 14:32:46
Our family PC is still going strong since 2007 and the only 2 things I had to replace was a bad stick of RAM and the video card. It started on a 4GB RAM, Win XP, built for DAW use, and is now running on Win8.1. Interestingly, the parts I used were from just a site I just Googled (without doing any research), and used practically the identical parts.
 
Apparently, those parts must've been solidly built at the time and the machine is on 24/7. I'm expecting it to blowup any day now and for general home use, I'm more than happy with it's life span. Hopefully, my main DAW I'm using now (built in 2013) will give me similar service as I spent a lot more time and money when building it. I suppose, 5-7 years wouldn't be too unreasonable.      

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#3
synkrotron
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 14:31:40 (permalink)
Thanks for your input here Jim
 
I think it's fair to say that, Sonar, for instance, doesn't seem to have demanded more computing power over the last five years. Would you expect it to in the next five?
 
That leaves VST software and, yes, there are some items, like 2CAudio's Kaleidoscope, that I simply can't run, no matter what I do. So I have to be happy with where I am and limit my "creativity" based on what I can use on my current set-up. As much as I like Kaleidoscope I don't consider it worth scrapping my laptop for.
 
Regarding Windows. I don't follow developments so I'm not entirely sure if, now that I am on Windows 10, that there will be any further significant steps in computing power requirements for that. After all, it's an OS and it is the software that runs on it that makes demands on you CPU. Am I understanding that correctly?
 
And then there's "bit" thing. That has certainly been one area where you have had to follow in order to keep up to speed. I've worked on 8, 16, 32 and now 64 bit computers. But is it likely that the next step change will come anytime soon? I get the impression that we have hit the wall with respect to the number of bits.
 
cheers,
 
andy

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synkrotron
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 14:36:05 (permalink)
Mesh
Apparently, those parts must've been solidly built at the time and the machine is on 24/7. I'm expecting it to blowup any day now and for general home use, I'm more than happy with it's life span.



Good point that Mesh, and in all the years I have had a PC, in some form or other, not one has ever blown up as such. I managed to fry a hard drive once but that was it. They seem to just keep going and going in my experience.
 
One thing I do with my CLEVO laptop is, every so often, remove the cover and remove all the dust from the heatsinks. I'm hoping that is going to be enough to keep things "safe" for the next couple of years
 
cheers
 
andy

http://www.synkrotron.co.uk/
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dwardzala
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 16:00:52 (permalink)
My DAW is going on 7 years (processor, mb and memory).  System drive is a bit newer (update to Win 7 on a new drive) but the original drive is still in the box.  The case, power supply and video card are all 10 years old.  Handles Sonar fine.

Dave
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synkrotron
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 16:05:35 (permalink)
dwardzala
My DAW is going on 7 years (processor, mb and memory).  System drive is a bit newer (update to Win 7 on a new drive) but the original drive is still in the box.  The case, power supply and video card are all 10 years old.  Handles Sonar fine.




Nice one Dave,
 
I guess that, as long as what we are doing is being handled by the hardware, why upgrade?

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#7
interpolated
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 16:18:55 (permalink)
My computers evolve rather than upgrade. Although the next time will be a complete overhaul. New RAM, new CPU, motherboard, new boot drive and Windows 7 if I can avoid 10. I'm not too keen on Windows 10 which I occasionally dual-boot into.
 
My currernt setup spans around 7 years I think which in technology terms is old. My PSU is modular and 750W so shouldn't need upgraded.
 

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
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synkrotron
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 16:49:03 (permalink)
interpolated
My computers evolve rather than upgrade.
 




 
Haha! Yeah... Almost like Trigger's broom
 


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#9
Amicus717
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 16:53:35 (permalink)
interpolated
My computers evolve rather than upgrade. 
 
 

This is what I did too, for the longest time - evolved one system, a part at a time, until I pretty much turned over every original part (probably at least twice) over quite a few years (10+). The longest serving part was the case, an Antec Sonata that I picked up in (I think) 2004, and finally retired in 2015. Not all the parts swapping was done as an upgrade in power -- mostly, it was basic maintenance: replacing an aging power supply, or a dodgy MOBO, or swapping out a HD that had gotten unreliable, etc. My current system is the first brand new, everything-from-scratch system build I have done in a over a decade, and I expect it to be good for 5 or 6 years before it will need any significant upgrades. 

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#10
Dave76
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 18:29:47 (permalink)
For most of the history of computers, raw CPU speeds were doubling roughly every 1-2 years.  Then about 10 years ago, chip manufacturers hit the wall in terms of increasing raw speed and had to move to multicore architectures instead.  Dramatic increases in raw CPU speed are usually easy to take advantage -- just run stuff on the new processor.  Multicore is a bit harder.  For something like low latency audio processing, as an example, you can split out processing of different tracks between the cores but you wouldn't be able to do much processing on a bus until all the separate tracks feeding that bus have been processed.  Google for Moore's Law if you aren't familiar with this and want to know more.  
 
Long story short, that's why you can get away with older PCs nowadays.  If you have a decent machine from 5 or so years ago and aren't using a ton of plugins on a ton of unfrozen takes then the incremental increases in raw CPU speeds aren't going to be very noticeable and you are already mostly taking advantage of what multiple cores will give you.  
 
Looking forward, it's harder to predict.  Intel keeps promising a major breakthrough but then keeps pushing those dates back.  
 
#11
abacab
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 18:55:22 (permalink)
I have been building computers since the Pentium 3 days with Win98.  I think we have seen the bottlenecks that induce a desire to upgrade have shifted with each generation of hardware.
 
Back in those days it was a struggle to get a multimedia PC to run smoothly, as there were potential problems everywhere.  AGP and ISA slots anyone?  IRQ assignments?  LOL!
 
Then I built several single core 3.0 Ghz Pentium 4 32-bit systems that ran for 10 years, or until I retired a couple of them. Started with a good case and power supply, and used Intel branded desktop boards.  Very dependable!  One is still running at my sisters house as a print server that runs Win 7 24/7.  The death of the AGP port hasn't helped much there.  Those AGP GPU's are getting hard to find.  But other than one power supply and several GPU's no issues with these builds.  Except for the rest of the world moving on to dual core and higher CPU's.  Plus the need for more that 4GB RAM.
 
Which is why I finally threw in the towel on my main desktop and upgraded to a 64-bit Intel Core based setup.  I had noticed for a couple of years recently that greedy software developers were maxing out the CPU thread on a single core, for even simple tasks like web surfing, or running real-time AV protection.  And the number of processes running was increasing all the time.  I have an old XP install that runs empty with around 25 processes.  Win 10 runs about 70+!!!
 
But I think that we have finally gotten to a good place with hardware architecture that has eliminated many of the previous bottlenecks.  The move to multicore CPU's, plus eliminating the Front Side Bus [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-side_bus ], and AGP slots, legacy PCI slots, USB1.1, and so forth were big improvements!
 
The holdups are no longer typically in the CPU, chipset, memory controller, motherboard resources [PCIe slots, USB 2/3 ports, SATA ports, etc.].  No matter what I do now, I do not seem to ever redline any of these components as far as designed performance.  So as far as I can see everything in my current build exceeds my needs as far as performance.  Even an integrated HD GPU works well now, even for dual monitors at 1920.
 
Maybe the only exception here is one SSD drive I have that could be faster on a 6Gb/s SATA port that my current 3Gb/s port.  But it's fast enough!!!
 
I suppose the only upgrade I am thinking about now is additional HDD storage space.  You can never have enough of that!!! 
 
So that was a good question about how long this will last until we need the next generation of hardware.  I think we have seen some great leaps in hardware these past few years, so unless there is a game changer in software, maybe it will be a while before software will catch up to Moore's Law again. 

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#12
Amicus717
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 19:27:50 (permalink)
abacab
I have been building computers since the Pentium 3 days with Win98.  I think we have seen the bottlenecks that induce a desire to upgrade have shifted with each generation of hardware.
 
Back in those days it was a struggle to get a multimedia PC to run smoothly, as there were potential problems everywhere.  AGP and ISA slots anyone?  IRQ assignments?  LOL!
 
 


I'll see your ISA slots, and raise you one VESA Local Bus slot. My first ever build involved an ATI Mach64 VESA card, and (I think..) a Cyrix CPU. It might have had a Quantum Bigfoot hard drive, too. I used it to play Doom. And its probably in my garage still.

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#13
abacab
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 19:35:48 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Amicus717 2017/05/01 19:38:40
Amicus717
 
I'll see your ISA slots, and raise you one VESA Local Bus slot. My first ever build involved an ATI Mach64 VESA card, and (I think..) a Cyrix CPU. It might have had a Quantum Bigfoot hard drive, too. I used it to play Doom. And its probably in my garage still.




I found Doom 3 on sale for cheap at Best Buy a few years ago.  It runs well on XP and Win 7! 

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#14
interpolated
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 20:21:21 (permalink)
I think the efficiency of how data is manipulated is getting better. It still gets the job done but I need more modern parts. DDR4, Intel Core i7, suitable motherboard, SSD boot option and another couple of SSD for programs and storage.
 
My current SSD will get formatted and reused for another purpose.
 
I've also been deliberating my cooling options. Do I go for a No-Fan solution or another 12cm heatsink option. Watercooling seems a bit risky and expensive for me.
 

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
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abacab
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 21:41:07 (permalink)
I think I would rather stick to this type of solution.  Heat will shorten your electronics life.  If no fans to move air, your stuff will run hotter.
 
http://www.quietpcusa.com/Quiet-Computer-Fans.aspx
 
http://www.quietpcusa.com/CPU-Cooler-Intel-LGA-1155.aspx

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#16
interpolated
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 22:17:08 (permalink)
You need a well vented case firstly. My current has pretty good airflow.  
 
I have front fans currently not in use, an exhaust fan in the case. 
 
Currently averaging 33.1 Centigrade (CPU), not sure about ambient. But anyway less heat produced by hardware should in theory become a more stable system. 
 
This is a point of interest for me at the moment.
 
http://www.nofancomputer.com/eng/products/CR-80EH.php
 
The plan is an exhaust fan behind the heatsink as normal and possibly enabling the front fan to increase the airflow throughout the case. However I expect using SSD storage in place of HDD will reduce the heat and power consumption.
 
 

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
#17
Jim Roseberry
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 23:27:29 (permalink)
Heat only affects stability if it's out of safe range.
 
ie: If you're CPU isn't anywhere near TJMax (when under load)... say hitting 65-70 degrees C under 100% load across all cores... then running 15 degrees cooler won't affect stability.
It certainly may affect noise...  

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#18
interpolated
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/01 23:31:03 (permalink)
I need to do some research. Just looking for a quieter system not 0dB no noise at all.

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
#19
abacab
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/02 00:11:07 (permalink)
Why is Heat Bad for Electronic Devices?
http://www.dowcorning.com...%20-%20Wet%20Dispensed

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#20
interpolated
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/02 00:15:03 (permalink)
I don't dispute it.

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
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mudgel
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/08 07:03:14 (permalink)
I built my i7 3930k system early 2012 with Win 7 and Sonar 8-8.5 and it operates quicker now with Win 10 and SPlat.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64,
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#22
abacab
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/08 12:42:10 (permalink)
mudgel
I built my i7 3930k system early 2012 with Win 7 and Sonar 8-8.5 and it operates quicker now with Win 10 and SPlat.



Well that should hold you for a while yet ...

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#23
abacab
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/08 12:56:49 (permalink)
interpolated
You need a well vented case firstly. My current has pretty good airflow.  
 
I have front fans currently not in use, an exhaust fan in the case. 
 
Currently averaging 33.1 Centigrade (CPU), not sure about ambient. But anyway less heat produced by hardware should in theory become a more stable system. 
 
This is a point of interest for me at the moment.
 
http://www.nofancomputer.com/eng/products/CR-80EH.php
 
The plan is an exhaust fan behind the heatsink as normal and possibly enabling the front fan to increase the airflow throughout the case. However I expect using SSD storage in place of HDD will reduce the heat and power consumption.
 



This weekend, one of my two 80mm fans developed a squeaky bearing.  I don't mind the ambient sound of a little air blowing, but the squeaky wheel dives me nuts!  Out!!!
 
This case (full ATX) and fans (one intake, one exhaust) has survived a couple of builds over 10 years, so I would say I got my money's worth out of them.
 
I had a couple of new spare fans that I bought recently, just in case.  https://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-Bearing-Cooling-Computer/dp/B002R9RBO0/ref=sr_1_1
 
So I ripped out the old 80's and put in the new.  Wow!  The new fans (2000RPM) are much quieter, can hardly hear them running at all.  The only thing I really hear now is the stock Intel CPU cooler, and that's not awful.  It's a PWM fan controlled by the mobo, and averages around 1000RPM.

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#24
batsbrew
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/08 14:30:36 (permalink)
i built my DAW in 2008.
built it do only audio recording,
no other tasks.
 
still going strong in 2017.
dont scrimp,
use quality parts, 
don't mess with things that work.

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#25
abacab
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/08 23:14:59 (permalink)
batsbrew
 
dont scrimp,
use quality parts




+1
 
That's the big advantage of home building.  You get to choose the important parts.  With off the shelf, store bought computers, it's a crap shoot!

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#26
kitekrazy1
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/09 00:26:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Starise 2017/05/11 16:13:44
batsbrew
i built my DAW in 2008.
built it do only audio recording,
no other tasks.
 
still going strong in 2017.
dont scrimp,
use quality parts, 
don't mess with things that work.




 Hate it when learning that lesson more than once. 
 Sometimes it's not always about price.  Any ASUS board will last you a long time no matter what you paid for it. I really see no point in spending over $300 for a motherboard guaranteed for 3 years. Most of them have features I don't really need.  I never had issues with any board under $150.
 
 Probably the most important thing in my builds are quality power supplies. 
 
 Most hardware these days outlast their usefulness. 
 
 
 

Sonar Platinum, W7 Pro 32GB Ram, Intel i7 4790, AsRock Z97 Pro 4,  NVidia 750ti, AP2496
 
Sonar Platinum, W7 Pro, 16GB Ram, AMD FX 6300, Gigabyte GA 970 -UD3 P, nVidia 9800GT, Guitar Port, Terratec EWX 2496
#27
Starise
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/11 16:21:31 (permalink)
My general rule of thumb has been 5 to 7 years. At that point  I prepare to get all the info I need from the older computer while it's still healthy so I won't have a tough time transferring. Then I usually mothball the older daw.
I still have my old daw.
Don't wait until it's too late. At 5 years you might start looking at replacement options. If funds are tight you could start to buy the hardware one piece at a time if you plan to build your own computer. You can afford to take your time looking for the best deals and spec'ing the best price/performance.
 
At 10 years though, you're walking on thin ice if it's your daw. Web surfing not so much.

Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, ,
3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, 
Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface.
 CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 
 
 www.soundcloud.com/starise
 
 
 
Twitter @Rodein
 
#28
LLyons
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/17 03:03:48 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/05/17 03:06:24
+1 for quality parts, with a simple twist. Make small changes each year. I started trying a different approach in 2005. New case, mobo, processor and the like. I got in at a new CPU package design implementation. So I bought the best mobo I could - but the low end CPU. Fast memory - but only 4 gig.

Following year, I added memory at half the price. Following year bought a faster hard drive. Following year the package design was end of lifed, but I got the fastest in the series for 1/3 of the price. Following year a new power supply and new hard drive. Held onto the mobo and core for another 3 years.

Kept the case, fans, hard drive and again bought the best mobo I could. The subsequent purchases followed the same pattern. The leaps in tech each year aren't that great. I bought top end CPU and memory about a year 1/2 later for 1/2 the price. Except for power supplies and Mobos, I improve the system each year for a bit less.

L Lyons 
DOS and Windows Pro Audio 2-9 from 12 Tone, Sonar 2, 2XL, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 8.5, Producer, Producer Expanded, X1 Producer, X2 Producer, X3 Producer and now Sonar Platinum 64 bit - 2nd year
Home Built Machine
32G Ram - Corsair Vengeance DDR4 
Win 10 Pro
Intel i7-6700K
Gigabyte Z170-UD5 Thunderbolt3 - AVB ready
Planar Hellium 27 touchscreen
Limited connection to internet
DAW use ONLY
WAVES 9.2 64 Bit 
MOTU 1248 - Connect Thunderbolt
MOTU AVB Switch
Presonus RM32ai - Connect firewire 800
CS18ai - Connect AVB
#29
Starise
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Re: A general question about life span of computers... 2017/05/17 14:35:16 (permalink)
I'm wondering if computer I.D. issues could be a factor in gradual replacement, especially with motherboards and main OS hard drives.  I might add memory later on or an extra hard drive. I don't think this flags win 10. If new OS, then it doesn't matter I suppose.
 
In the old days , you could simply replace the mobo and keep the main HDD and usually there would be no issues. With newer OS I'm not so sure.

Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, ,
3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, 
Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface.
 CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 
 
 www.soundcloud.com/starise
 
 
 
Twitter @Rodein
 
#30
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