broden
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A-Pro Aftertouch?
Hi guys. Just received my A300Pro after making a bold move and ordering one without having tested it beforehand. So far I'm a huge fan, the keybed feels fantastic, but the aftertouch in the keys seems really stiff. I've tried all 4 AT curves and really don't feel much difference. 2 and 3 seem to be the best but really not much different from 1. I'm curious if anyone has tried contacting Cakewalk support about this yet and what that response may have been. Or, perhaps there is a mod to increase the sensitivity? I'm thinking along the lines of what was done for MPDs and the cork underlay... Maybe this is something that can be fixed with firmware?
As is, I feel like I'm on the verge of breaking a key in half or will end up eventually destroying the keybed (admittedly, the very middle of the key seems to be the easiest to trigger, but being able to press down on the lower half would be most desirable) just to get the AT messages triggered in Logic.
Thanks for your thoughts!
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S.Wallis
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/11/04 18:25:14
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I can relate to your post. I havn't contacted Cakewalk because i don't think there's anything that can be done. But of course i could be wrong.
One bit of advice i can offer, is when using the white keys, try to press down near the end of the black keys - not between them though, just at the ends. This seems to be the best place for me, although it's only slightly better... Also, if you have to use the lower half of the keys, try sliding your up the key to the bottom of the black keys.
One final tip is to consciously use the muscles in your arm aswell. But obviously that's going to get tiring...
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broden
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/11/04 18:56:48
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It's just really sad because the feel of everything else in this controller is basically the best of any I've tried. Hard to part with it over just AT, but I'm thinking about it :/ Too bad there pretty much aren't any comparable controllers above 25 keys but below 49. Do you know of any close in this quality/price range? I know there was the older 37-key Novation, but I'm apprehensive about getting that one, not knowing the quality of the keybed. I almost considered a Mopho Keyboard but thought I'd try something ~1/3 the price first... I might go ahead and contact support to see what they think.
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S.Wallis
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/11/05 14:12:35
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The only thing i could compare the A-PRO to would be M-Audio's Axiom, but i havn't the aftertouch on it so it could be just as bad, and it's only 25 keys, not 32.
If you do contact Cakewalk, can you let me know what they said please? Thanks.
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rbowser
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/09 00:28:08
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My A-800 came today and it's a major upgrade for my set up. BUT, I can't get any Aftertouch at all out of it. It seems like it doesn't default to being on--? I have to assign it or something--? Don't get that yet. Hope I didn't dent anything inside--I pushed so hard on the keys to make something happen.
?
RB
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Kevin Lee
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/09 08:01:58
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I thinke you must go to the host Programs Option Menu and put a checkmark next to the Aftertouch Message in the MIDI tab.
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rbowser
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/09 10:23:04
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Kevin Lee
I thinke you must go to the host Programs Option Menu and put a checkmark next to the Aftertouch Message in the MIDI tab.
AH! Of course!---Thank you so much, Kevin. This is my first keyboard with Aftertouch - but as soon as I read your reply, I remembered that in Sonar, Options>Global>MIDI, the two settings for Aftertouch are un-checked by default. I've checked them--Now to see about changing the Aftertouch curve if needed. I really appreciate the reply. RB
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Shambler
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/10 05:01:57
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S.Wallis
I can relate to your post. I havn't contacted Cakewalk because i don't think there's anything that can be done. But of course i could be wrong.
One bit of advice i can offer, is when using the white keys, try to press down near the end of the black keys - not between them though, just at the ends. This seems to be the best place for me, although it's only slightly better... Also, if you have to use the lower half of the keys, try sliding your up the key to the bottom of the black keys.
One final tip is to consciously use the muscles in your arm aswell. But obviously that's going to get tiring...
That's a great tip and sounds like the best solution! I have owned a Roland Fantom X and a V-Synth GT in the past and it has to be said, Roland really want you to work for your aftertouch! They have the most irresponsive aftertouch I have ever witnessed in a keyboard, only a keyboard without aftertouch has less response  Take something like the Korg Triton on the other hand, it was so expressive with aftertouch, the range was dynamic from pressing down very softly to quite hard you got a very easily controllable effect. One day I might open up my A-800 Pro (it's a lot cheaper than those other 2 synths let's face it!) and have a go at tweaking the responsiveness.
post edited by Shambler - 2010/12/10 05:07:59
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rbowser
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/10 10:32:26
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AFTER TOUCH work-around for Garritan users:
--After getting my Aftertouch turned on in the Global preferences, I found that the keyboard just doesn't handle Aftertouch very well, as per the posts on this thread.
--I changed the response curve to key pressure -- there are only a few choices, and even at the most sensitive, getting Aftertouch is totally hit-and-miss. There's no way someone's playing style could adapt successfully to something that works sometimes, often doesn't, requires shifting your hand position around etc.
--Conclusion - Really bad implementation of Aftertouch on the A-800 Pro, basically unusable.
SOLUTION - Which is for Garritan users:
My main libraries are from the Garritan line, and many of the instruments use Aftertouch for vibrato. For years I've just drawn it in via the PRV. One of the big attractions for me with the Apro was to finally have a keyboard with Aftertouch. After seeing that part of the keyboard is a big failure, I Had to come up with a work-around.
I made a new Control Map. Using #19, "Sonar2" as a template, I reprogrammed the Mod Stick to send out Aftertouch instead of CC1. I reprogrammed knob R9 to send out CC17 which controls the speed of Aftertouch Vibrato in Garritan.
My new volume pedal is for controlling Garritan volume via CC11. That controller is interchangeable with CC1 for volume in Garritan.
I copied that edited map into slot #1 which is pre-set for Cubase. Now Map 0 is the basic Sonar map, and I change to map 1 for when I'm recording with Garritan.
Works great. Finally--beautiful, full range Aftertouch which is perfectly responsive.
Losing knob R9's default, panning of the Master bus, is no loss since it's very rare that the Master's pans need to be changed.
If I'm working with a synth which needs standard CC1 for vibrato, then I stick with Map 0.
Works great.
Randy B.
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bvc
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/12 09:21:39
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I owned a PCR-800 and found the aftertouch very insensitive. I had hoped this new, improved keybed that the A-series boasts would solve the problem, but sadly (though not entirely surprisingly), this doesn't look to be the case, based on what I've read. Seems the aftertouch problem is something Roland's been overlooking for some time. It appears it may NOT be unsolvable, however: http://forums.rolandclan....9&fid=1&page=2 I do not personally condone opening up the keyboard, and I personally have had some bad experiences going in there and tampering around with a few of my own boards... but if you've got the expertise, aftertouch was a reason you bought the keyboard, you're rich enough to sacrifice the keyboard, or you're feeling lucky, I can't say not to give it a go. If you do, please share the results! .bvc.
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rbowser
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/12 15:16:04
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bvc
I owned a PCR-800 and found the aftertouch very insensitive. I had hoped this new, improved keybed that the A-series boasts would solve the problem, but sadly (though not entirely surprisingly), this doesn't look to be the case, based on what I've read.
Seems the aftertouch problem is something Roland's been overlooking for some time.
It appears it may NOT be unsolvable, however: http://forums.rolandclan....9&fid=1&page=2
I do not personally condone opening up the keyboard, and I personally have had some bad experiences going in there and tampering around with a few of my own boards... but if you've got the expertise, aftertouch was a reason you bought the keyboard, you're rich enough to sacrifice the keyboard, or you're feeling lucky, I can't say not to give it a go. If you do, please share the results!
.bvc.
Hi, bvc - Thanks for the link-- That's too radical for me, opening up the keyboard and replacing the sensor strip. Too scary. But it's amazing that Roland has so many units out with these faulty strips - It was obvious from the get-go that the Aftertouch on the A-800 is basically non-functional. Isn't that flakiness in the extreme? This keyboard is spread out proudly on the Cakewalk site, at Roland's site, with hyped up text talking about Aftertouch, but that part of the keyboard is broken. Really Ps me off. Out right deception on Roland's part, and my opinion of the company shrinks way down in appropriate proportion. BUT what I'm doing with having a control map with Aftertouch mapped to the Mod stick is working for me. Like so many MIDI keyboardists, I've long since been a one handed player, using my left hand for wheels and knobs, so it doesn't mess me up. I'm fine with that work-around - BUT it remains that the default Aftertouch action right there on the keys SHould be available also. Thanks again for the link. Randy B.
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bvc
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/12 19:36:21
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That is a good idea, rbowser. I'm glad you've found - and shared - a way around this problem.
It is a massive shame, however, that one pays extra for the aftertouch feature and cannot use it. I respect your adaptability, but I personally (and I'm sure others) cannot succeed too well in expressive two-handed playing without key aftertouch. It's something that once you're used to it, it is a sorely missed feature. It's not too important in the studio, but for live playing, it's (for me at least) invaluable.
Kind of ridiculous in this day and age to be discussing "aftertouch vs. no aftertouch" in the realm of $400 controllers. The discussion SHOULD be "channel aftertouch vs. polyphonic aftertouch." Ah well.
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Shambler
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/13 10:58:25
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I have registered an enquiry with RolandUK about the lack of aftertouch response on the A-800 Pro and will report back here when I get some feedback.
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rbowser
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/13 11:09:08
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Shambler
I have registered an enquiry with RolandUK about the lack of aftertouch response on the A-800 Pro and will report back here when I get some feedback.
That's great, Shambler - I hope they give you some kind of useful information. RB
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bvc
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/13 13:13:58
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Excellent! If there's anything we the community can do, let us know. I am sure there are enough people fed up with this problem, as it's been going on with their synths and keyboards for years now.
Hopefully you don't get the dreaded corporate reply of "The A-800 Pro allows the user 4 different alternatives for the aftertouch curve. Certainly at least one of them will meet your playing style." Yeah, if you happen to be on steroids, maybe.
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Shambler
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/13 14:28:25
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Well it didn't take long to get a response from Rolank UK but it doesn't sound very promising. Hi. Than you for your email. The aftertouch is indeed a little harder to activate on the A Pro series. I have just tested this with my A800 Pro. - Maybe over time it will ease.... I hope this helps. Does it help, hardly.  I suggest someone US based contacts Roland US to see if they get a more helpful reply.
post edited by Shambler - 2010/12/13 14:30:03
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rbowser
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/13 15:59:00
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Shambler
Well it didn't take long to get a response from Rolank UK but it doesn't sound very promising.
Hi.
Than you for your email.
The aftertouch is indeed a little harder to activate on the A Pro series.
I have just tested this with my A800 Pro. - Maybe over time it will ease....
I hope this helps.
Does it help, hardly.
I suggest someone US based contacts Roland US to see if they get a more helpful reply.
What a weird answer - He's saying that maybe it'll kinda work in with time? Where's the logic to that? There's a sensor strip in there - it's somehow going to get more sensitive with time? Seems like it would be the opposite, getting less sensitive. Hmm, well, yeah that reply's a wash out. I'll write to Roland US and see if I can something back. RB
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bvc
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/13 16:58:50
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Thanks for taking the helm, RB.
Well that's a frustrating... I'm sorry, B.S. answer. It is common knowledge that aftertouch becomes LESS sensitive as time goes on, as a result of the foam that surrounds the contact strip becoming compressed after years of use. It's like expecting a pillow to get thicker after years of wear. Ridiculous.
I had a chance to play a Roland Fantom at the store earlier, and I honestly thought I was going to knock the keyboard off of the stand onto the floor, I had to press so hard to engage the aftertouch.
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Shambler
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/14 10:19:57
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I think this may be a Roland 'feature' rather than a fault.
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rbowser
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/14 10:26:20
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Shambler
I think this may be a Roland 'feature' rather than a fault.
-? Was that meant to be a joke, Shambler? - Aftertouch is supposed to be engaged by pressing on the keys just a bit more on sustained notes. But on this board, you can push as hard as you're able to and sometimes you'll get a slight bit of vibrato, other times, nothing. That's why it's unusable. I have the most sensitive curve engaged with only the teeniest bit of improvement. That's why the only way I can use real-time Aftertouch is with my special map that has it connected to the Mod stick. I signed up at the Roland US site, registered the keyboard, so I could submit my question about this - awaiting their reply. Randy B.
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bvc
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/14 18:48:14
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I think what Shambler means is that this problem isn't due to faulty units (as in ones that deviate from the norm) but rather due to an ongoing unresolved issue that has been present in Roland keyboards for several - if not more - years. If it is a shame to buy a $400 board and not get the promised aftertouch, imagine paying $2-3,000 for a Fantom synthesizer and having the same problem. I was worried I was going to break it testing the aftertouch in the store.
The unfortunate part about using the modulation stick for aftertouch (other than the obvious paying extra for aftertouch and not getting it) is that you sacrifice the modulation effect. This isn't a big deal on patches where both the mod stick and aftertouch control vibrato, but in the case of patches where the mod stick controls vibrato and the aftertouch controls, say, a filter sweep, assigning aftertouch to the mod stick eliminates your ability to control vibrato. It sounds like it could be limiting. I don't see why I would want to buy an A-500Pro for however much it is when I could get a $99 new Alesis Q49 and just as easily assign aftertouch to the mod wheel.
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Shambler
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/15 10:21:18
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rbowser
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/15 11:03:39
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I'm still (im)patiently awaiting a reply from Roland US about Aftertouch on the Apro. Whatever I'm told, I'll pass on here. I doubt if it will be any better than what's been posted from Roland UK.
Shambler, I see that bvc interpreted your earlier post correctly - that you were saying the problem wasn't due to individually defective units, but an overall >ahem< "feature" of Roland keyboards.
It really is amazing - the supposed "King of Keyboards" cranking out units that have virtually unusable Aftertouch on them. Shocking really - and such a disappointment to me. I haven't bought a new keyboard in Decades, I get excited not only with the ACT controls, the "famous Roland key action," but also because for the first time, I was going to get Aftertouch on a keyboard. Disgusting that the company lies and tricks budget-conscious people like me into getting something that is just not going to fill all their needs as promised.
bvc-I need to clarify something. You said, "...The unfortunate part about using the modulation stick for aftertouch (other than the obvious paying extra for aftertouch and not getting it) is that you sacrifice the modulation effect..."
I have a special map with Aftertouch programmed to the Mod stick, but it isn't what I'll be using all the time. This mapping is for the Garritan Libraries that use Aftertouch for vibrato, and Modulation for volume. But CC1 ("modulation") is interchangeable with CC11 ("expression") in Garritan Libraries, so I have my pedal for controlling their volume, Mod stick for vibrato. See? But that is very non-standard MIDI programming that they do in Garritan, and so the regular Sonar Map will be what I use for other synths/samplers, so that CC1 for vibrato is available on the stick, as usual. If I need Aftertouch for any of those instruments, I'll have to go back to what I've always done - draw it in the PRV of Sonar, or maybe I'll program it to the R9 knob, since I find Master Pan the least needed control.
Randy B.
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bvc
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/15 11:06:05
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Shambler
Well it didn't take long to get a response from Rolank UK but it doesn't sound very promising.
Hi.
Than you for your email.
The aftertouch is indeed a little harder to activate on the A Pro series.
I have just tested this with my A800 Pro. - Maybe over time it will ease....
I hope this helps.
Does it help, hardly.
I suggest someone US based contacts Roland US to see if they get a more helpful reply.
To quote Cakewalk representative Robin Kelly from the stickied message at the top of this forum:
The keyboard bed itself has been upgraded significantly. These controllers play like a synth and not a MIDI controller. I love my XP-60 (bought brand new when they first came out) because of the feel of the keyboard bed and the responsiveness to after touch. Until the A-Pro I still used the XP-60 exclusively as my controller in my studio. However, now I like the A-Pro better, I really do.
Is it at least -a little- better than your other Roland boards, Shambler? I find it very hard to believe customer dissatisfaction with the aftertouch sensitivity would be referred to and then not improved upon. Then again, you WERE told by Roland that the aftertouch would get better over time, which is about the most outrageous thing I've recently heard in the name of corporate nonsense... and I've heard a lot of it lately. I'd personally rather hear "yes, your complaint is valid, but we're never going to change it, so get used to it or buy something else," but of course we don't live in such an honest world.
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Shambler
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/15 14:03:37
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rbowser
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/17 20:47:36
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Heard from Roland support today about the poor Aftertouch in the Apro. Here's the message, predictably unhelpful:
-------------------------
Subject: A-800Pro Aftertouch inquiry
Question: I'm finding the Aftertouch on the keyboard to be unusable even after changing the response to the most sensitive setting. Online I now see that it's widely known to be a problem with this and other Roland keyboards. The only advice I've seen so far for a fix is to have a technician replace the sensor strip in the machine, which would of course void the warranty.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Randy Bowser
-----------------------------
Hello Randy,
If you feel your unit is not working properly you can send it in to have it evaluated although we do not have any way to alter or modify the unit beyond its manufactured specifications.
There are settings in the A800 Pro for the aftertouch curve as well as min and max values. If you need more control you can also assign a foot pedal or slider to aftertouch as well.
Sincerely,
Roland US Product Support
-----------------------------
There ya go folks. Roland support on both sides of The Big Pond basically refuse to acknowledge there's anything wrong with their keyboards.
Minimum and maximum values for Aftertouch - Hmmm, I guess I haven't changed that, I assumed the factory pre-set would be good. I'll look for that - don't believe I've seen that, only the curve setting.
Randy B.
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bvc
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/18 01:37:05
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$400 for a keyboard without aftertouch? That's like some kind of sad, twisted joke.
Fare thee well, Roland. Give me a call when you catch up to the real companies!
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rbowser
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/18 02:17:30
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bvc
$400 for a keyboard without aftertouch? That's like some kind of sad, twisted joke.
Fare thee well, Roland. Give me a call when you catch up to the real companies!
Well, it does have Aftertouch, it's just not very sensitive when triggered from the keys the way most people want to use AT. If you can be happy with a map that has AT assigned to something like the pedal, or the Mod stick, then full, sensitive AT is available. Just seems to be something funky in the Roland sensor strips under the keys. RB
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Shambler
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/18 09:19:19
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I'm seriously thinking about going back to a fully fledged synth now just to get a good controller.
I had a further communication from Roland UK, Your unit may be faulty - but I do agree the aftertouch is a little tough to activate, I think the only way of telling is if you can test one in a store to see if it is the same or not. Maybe Robin Kelly can comment on why our experience differs totally from his? It is hard for me to get to a store where they have A-Pro to demo. I am thinking of Kurzweil PC361 as it will add to my audio palette ( not just a rompler ), but I definitey need to go test one first!
post edited by Shambler - 2010/12/18 09:21:08
SONAR Platypus on Win10 64bit. Studio One Pro / Cubase Pro 9.5...just in case. 8GB i7-2600 3.4GHz Gigabyte Z68XP-UD3P Geforce GTX970 Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd Gen Prophet 12/Rev 2/Virus Snow Zebra2/DIVA/NI Komplete 10
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Glyn Barnes
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Re:A-Pro Aftertouch?
2010/12/19 15:52:01
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I have just set up my A-Pro 800. I have been trying out the aftertouch. As this is the first keyboard I have had with aftertouch I do not have a bench mark for comparison but I do think it seems a bit stiffer than I would have expected if I had not read the posts here.
However I am finding mine usable so far (on the default setting) and I have been having some fun with the vowel morph patches in the Kontakt 4 choirs. I am using Kontakt stand alone, I can go through the full range consistently and after a little practice accurately.
I wonder if there was a bad batch of Friday afternoon boards??
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