Sp3ctre18
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ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
Classes start next monday so I hope I can get enough help and make my decision as soon as possible. Luckily they've been slow and it hasnt been bad for me, but I've got a movie and a vidio game I'm scoring and I haven't been able to do anything since a bit before fall semesters started. I've been dealing with soft synths not getting out any sound after a sudden Sonar crash, despite everything else working and everything haveing worked perfectly before. No one seems to know what's going on though, so though I'm still dealing with slow and near-pointless cakewalk support, it's time to start looking at an audio upgrade.  ~~~~ I hardly know anything about audio stuff and soudn cards and what nots. Totally lost, no clue, and though I'm sure everyone else says it, I did look through topics and searhed, but I coudln't find many that were recent enough and fit my use. I already really did not want to have to get a sound card already, due to cost and no apparent need, but i'm being forced to obvously. Going off some basic questions I found on a site:
- Budget: My budget is around $100 - 150. 200 max; hope i don't need to. I'm hoping the fact that i've been just fine with with integrated for at least 2 years, on a 6 year old computer and on this 5 month old computer (until something went wrong) mean that I really don't need something expensive.
- How many inputs do you plan to record simultaneously: ?? does this mean like midi and some audio thing at same time? I'd most liekly record one thing at a time. I don't see how I could do more than one.
- Will that number change in your future? highly unlikely
What type of inputs do you need?
- Do you need analog only? what would analog be? RCA jacks? would be nice, to hook up boombox or something but, defintely would only be a bonus.
- Do you need line input? wat?
- Do you need Mic inputs? High quality mic input would be a nice bonus. Maybe 2 for stereo. That's only for looking ahead because I don't have a recording mike other than an ancient one I used to use with boombox and a computer mic. Maybe someday I'll get a couple mics; I may want to record certain noises for SFX in projects unrelated to music, or to record myself playing violin or something if I feel I need it for a piece. Oh, and not having an 88key keyboard means I've recorded myself on tape playing piano. Being able to hook up the boombox to record cassette tape to computer with minimal quality loss would be great. This is not important right now though, so if it means getting something more expensive, no. It would be a bonus, but it's the no. 1 thing I'd want as a bonus. :D
- Do you need phantom power? wat?
- Digital (i.e. SPDIF)? don't know what that would be either.
- MIDI? Midi I/O would be great to free up a usb port, since I've got a midi to USB cable from my keyboard to computer. However, that's all I have, so MIDI I/O would only be GREAT if a midi cable is included. Otherwise it's just a bonus if I ever decide to get a midi cable.
- PCI, Cardbus (PCMCIA), Firewire, USB? PCI is faster and better right? I just want what's best, and what's cheapest. But I only have a PCIe 1x free. Everything's PCIe.
Although I still don't have a 5.1 speaker set and am only useing a pair of speakers, i would hope the sound card support high quality sound and 5.1 audio. I would assume that's given if even integrated souind can be like that. I would also assume that latency is going to be better. I'm an orchestral composer, fim and classical, work only with soft synths, any audio is....you know, not recorded by me. I use EWQL SO complete using PLAY, Sonar 6 Studio Edition 64bit. Using Vista 64bit, with 6 GB Ram, quad-core cpu, and realtek HD integrated audio, 6 usb ports....all used up.  Desktop PC, HP Elite m930f Would need to get a USB hub. Got firewire free, and only ONE PCIe 1x free. Basically, the only reason I want a soundcard is so that it WORKS, and can be reliable, unllike what i've been using so far. So as long as it's better than what I have, and I'm not losing any features of what I have now, then I'll be good. Even latencey wasn't much an issue for me, but I'm sure a soundcard is going to be better and will thus streamline recording a part to existing music without having to deal with 300ms latecny.  Thank you; I hope you guys can give me some good suggestions that fits with what I do. I hope to be able to get back to writing music soon. 
post edited by Sp3ctre18 - 2009/01/07 16:21:17
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/06 20:58:53
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looking back to a few of my earlier topics, here are some suggestions they've given. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UA1EX/ not sure what that even is...looks like an input converter thing, not a sound card sort of thingy. :P and I can't find the other but it was some $200 usb external interface that looked like a whole lot of stuff I don't understand and didn't need. o.o and btw, hey, if you think my best option is usb, alright.... it just means i'll need to get a USB hub too.
post edited by Sp3ctre18 - 2009/01/06 21:03:58
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AT
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/06 23:17:29
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Col., that is a digital in, with a headphone and line RCA out. Don't know what you are monitoring over - but I think you would end up needing conversion in if you plan on doing any acoustic recording. You might want to look at the M- Audio transit. I had (have if I can find it) one and it worked well for $80. Had mini-plugs in and out, and could do digital, too. It sounded fine. It was USB 1, but could play and record audio at 48 kHz . It might be a better investment - tho check to see if it has vista drivers. There are also some stuff from Emu and I know that Yamaha had a stereo i/o unit which probably used their good convertor http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D64703%252526CTID%25253D207900,00.html
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 01:16:41
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ORIGINAL: AT
Don't know what you are monitoring over hm? You might want to look at the M- Audio transit. Isn't that some portable input thing? at least it's what it looks like. http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D64703%252526CTID%25253D207900,00.html
that thing seems old because i had a hard time finding it online anywhere, and requirements said XP SP1. I finally foud it selling somewhere...$400.  I looked up EMU stuff to look into this some more, try to understand what i may be going for, but I don't get it really. http://www.emu.com/products/welcome.asp?category=505& Digital Audio Systems? why do they call them that, what does it mean? And what's with these huge boxes anyway; I've always thought they're for all these diferent audio stuffs contorls and knobs for people who record stuff. And then one that costs $100 has these cables on it, and the next one up...are those TWO cards? Takes up 2 PCI slots? and looks liek same inputs so what's the dfference? Aren't there regular soundcards anymore? Or, are Digital Audio Systems soundcards + different inputs? Is that what i'm looking for, for my situation, upgrading from integrated audio to a "sound card"? This is another site I was looking at: http://homerecording.beaglesound.com/9.html It mentions the EMUs I was looking....says the 0404 is difficult to set up for a beginner? I'll take a look at those m-audio.....
post edited by Sp3ctre18 - 2009/01/07 01:28:13
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PathosLogos
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 03:10:35
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Firewire and PCMCIA (cardbus) audio interfaces aren't really "cheap". These are relatively more expensive than their PCI counterparts...although you may still be able to find a good deal on used stuff if you have time to search. Standard MIDI cables being bundled along with audio-interface cards aren't really that common. Usually, standard MIDI In/Out cables (i.e. not the MIDI-to-USB cables) are bundled with "Teach Me Piano" software series like those from Voyetra/Turtlebeach OR MIDI In/Out cables are bought separately. The need for standard MIDI In/Out cables would depend on your existing MIDI-compatible keyboard. Some keyboards BOTH have standard MIDI In/Out ports at the back/side of the unit AND USB-MIDI (Type B) interface as well (a good example of these would be some models of Casio Privia 88-key digital pianos and keyboards...as these are the budget-oriented keyboards/digital pianos that provide BOTH MIDI connectivities). Depending on the particular model of audio-interface card or break-out device, a phantom power might be provided as part of the features. Generally speaking, the more features and/or connectivity options an audio-interface card has, the more expensive it becomes. You might also want to consider looking into these: Echo Digital Audio interface products I currently have an M-audio PCI-interface audio-card and I use virtual instruments (Garritan's Personal Orchestra and Ivory) with it as well, and based on personal experience and coupled with various users experiences in the M-audio forum as well, there are still "clicks n pops" issues being heard and reported. I've tried re-installing the card into all the available PCI slots in my motherboard and still the "clicks n pops". Tried disabling Windows XP services not necessary for DAW PC (digital audio workstation) use and still the "clicks n pops". Disabled on-board audio and LAN chip in my motherboard's BIOS settings, but still the "clicks n pops". I even re-installed my drivers, audio-MIDI software and as a last resort...reformatted and re-installed my OS and audio-MIDI softwares to no avail. Tried everything suggested both by the M-audio tech support and other users but still the "clicks n pops"...I don't know, but who knows?...You might get lucky with your current setup or PC and may never experience this problem.
Pentium D 925 3GHz dual-core , MSI P31 Neo v2, 4GB DDR2 800, ATI X1650 Pro 512mb, Audiophile 2496, Seagate SATA HDDs (80, 80, 320, 500), Antec 430w PSU, Behringer UMX61, Casio Privia PX-320, Emu Xmidi 2x2, Pearl Drum set (acoustic), Carlsbro mixer
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Guitarhacker
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 10:00:28
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To research sound cards... use Beagle's site ... look up soundcards: http://www.beaglesound.com/ Now to the basics: If you have a desktop computer, you can find a PCI card based interfcae like the EMU-0404 for under $100. It has midi and audio in/out and will work fine. Check EBAY for used interfaces. I sold my old 0404 there about a year ago for $75.... so deals are to be had. If you plan on doing game and movie scoring I would HIGHLY recommend the Focusrite Saffire Firewire interface. It has R&L audio in (hi & low impedence) line & instrument levels, midi in/out digital in/out....and 8 programable outputs for the surround sound needed for games and movies. I was told that was the design purpose for this interface. It also has onboard digital signal processing controlled by a software interface. In other words.... this is one sweet puppy. I have one and love it. I have 4 outputs programmed for my studio monitoring.... You can record 2 channels at a time, it has phantom power for using condensor mics, uses FIREWIRE, AND... supports 7.1 audio. It now sells new for about $250 at Guitar Center.... well worth every penny. http://www.focusrite.com/products/saffire/saffire/
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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AT
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 11:03:47
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Sp3cre, ORIGINAL: Sp3ctre18
ORIGINAL: AT
Don't know what you are monitoring over hm?
You might want to look at the M- Audio transit. Isn't that some portable input thing? at least it's what it looks like.
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D64703%252526CTID%25253D207900,00.html
that thing seems old because i had a hard time finding it online anywhere, and requirements said XP SP1. I finally foud it selling somewhere...$400.
I looked up EMU stuff to look into this some more, try to understand what i may be going for, but I don't get it really.
http://www.emu.com/products/welcome.asp?category=505&
Digital Audio Systems? why do they call them that, what does it mean? And what's with these huge boxes anyway; I've always thought they're for all these diferent audio stuffs contorls and knobs for people who record stuff. And then one that costs $100 has these cables on it, and the next one up...are those TWO cards? Takes up 2 PCI slots? and looks liek same inputs so what's the dfference? Aren't there regular soundcards anymore?
Or, are Digital Audio Systems soundcards + different inputs? Is that what i'm looking for, for my situation, upgrading from integrated audio to a "sound card"?
This is another site I was looking at: http://homerecording.beaglesound.com/9.html
It mentions the EMUs I was looking....says the 0404 is difficult to set up for a beginner?
I'll take a look at those m-audio.....
I guess you are listening over the computer speakers, then. Not ideal, but if it sounds good on them, it will probably sound good elsewhere. From what I understand you are looking to hear your soundsynths from the computer and want better quality than your onboard card delivers, with maybe some audio recording if you want. The Transit will allow you to hook up your computer speakers (or any other amp/speakers with the proper cables - 1/8 inch to RCA or 1/4 inch). It also has an stereo analog input in case you want to record anything with a line (such as an external synth or a mic from a preamp). It is about as simple as it gets - replacing your computer's soundcard with something a little more high-fi. It connects to the computer over USB - USB 1, which is the slow version but fine for simple audio in and out. It is old, but cheap and worked fine for me which is why I recommended it. It is portable, but I used it for my desktop before I upgraded. I had an Audigy card and used it for MIDI i/o since the Transit doesn't include MIDI; I simply used it for audio i/o. I don't know if they have updated the drivers to VISTA, but the XP worked fine. The Emu stuff is as good as any of the other cheaper stuff but I haven't used it. It probably uses 2 PCI slots with a daughter card, which doesn't use a PCI slot pre se but needs access though the rear plate. I had an Audigy card with the same set up - needed an open back plate for the midi in out. From what I understand the mixer is complex to set up for the 0404. For output the EMU you were looking at should be good, but it doesn't have any audio inputs from the glance I gave it. A hundred dollars is about the cheapest you can get a card for. As others said above, you can use a PCI slot and varients, USB or FireWire. USB and Firewire use more computer resources than slots, but even on older machines that shouldn't be a problem (and you don't have to worry about upgrading - I've got several different dual head video cards that couldn't be put into my next computer since they lacked the correct kind of slot). I suggested the Yamaha since the convertors/preamps should be first class (they came from their uppper range units). I thought it might be cheaper now since it is discontinued, which is also why it is XP only I guess. You might want to give the Scotsman review a look - I talked about some of the aspects of lower end gear. It is old, but you might find some of it revelent. It aint been updated for years - I can't even remember how to get on it to add/edit anymore. http://bnoirfilm.tripod.com/ good luck! and let us know if you have any more questions.
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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krizrox
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 11:18:22
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ORIGINAL: Sp3ctre18
- Budget: My budget is around $100 dollars. I'm hoping the fact that i've been just fine with with integrated for at least 2 years, on a 6 year old computer and on this 5 month old computer (until something went wrong) mean that I really don't need something expensive.
- How many inputs do you plan to record simultaneously: ?? does this mean like midi and some audio thing at same time? I'd most liekly record one thing at a time. I don't see how I could do more than one.
- Will that number change in your future? highly unlikely
What type of inputs do you need?
- Do you need analog only? what would analog be? RCA jacks? would be nice, to hook up boombox or something but, defintely would only be a bonus.
- Do you need line input? wat?
- Do you need Mic inputs? High quality mic input would be a nice bonus. Maybe 2 for stereo. That's only for looking ahead because I don't have a recording mike other than an ancient one I used to use with boombox and a computer mic. Maybe someday I'll get a couple mics; I may want to record certain noises for SFX in projects unrelated to music, or to record myself playing violin or something if I feel I need it for a piece. Oh, and not having an 88key keyboard means I've recorded myself on tape playing piano. Being able to hook up the boombox to record cassette tape to computer with minimal quality loss would be great. This is not important right now though, so if it means getting something more expensive, no. It would be a bonus, but it's the no. 1 thing I'd want as a bonus. :D
- Do you need phantom power? wat?
- Digital (i.e. SPDIF)? don't know what that would be either.
- MIDI? Midi I/O would be great to free up a usb port, since I've got a midi to USB cable from my keyboard to computer. However, that's all I have, so MIDI I/O would only be GREAT if a midi cable is included. Otherwise it's just a bonus if I ever decide to get a midi cable.
- PCI, Cardbus (PCMCIA), Firewire, USB? PCI is faster and better right? I just want what's best, and what's cheapest.
$100? That's not much to work with. Honestly, I don't know what you can expect to get for $100 but I agree - eBay might be your best bet to stretch your money. I can answer some of the other questions though: How many inputs: audio interfaces are usually classified (to a certain extent) by how many channels of audio you can feed into them at once. At very least, you should be able to record two channels of analog audio (stereo, or left and right input). As you progress up the ladder of sophistication and cost, you can expect to be able to record anywhere from 4 to ... I don't know, 32 channels of audio or more simulateously. If you're not planning on recording rock bands or orchestras in your living room then just shoot for the most you think you'd ever need (sounds like you could get by with two channels). When we talk analog, we're talking about how many microphones you would want to set up at any given time (or analog outputs from keyboards, samplers, etc). I have a 16 channel interface here in my studio (I can record from 16 different microphones at once). That has served me well for many years. Analog inputs can be either the typical RCA home stereo type or 1/4" instrument jacks or the XLR microphone style connectors. You may find any or all of those included on some of the better interfaces. Again, you would choose depending on what you expect to be recording from. Doesn't hurt to have options. Line input means signals from tapes decks, effects units, preamps, direct boxes, etc. If it's not a microphone or a guitar, then it's probably line level. Mic inputs are obvious. Do you expect to sing or record someone playing an instrument? If not, you don't need any mic preamps. Phantom power would be needed if you expect to use condenser microphones. Phantom power is a way of providing power to the microphone from the mic cable. Usually 48volts DC. Again, if there are no XLR mic inputs, you won't see phantom power included on the device. Digital inputs are needed if you plan to record from gear that has digital outputs. Could be SPDIF, ADAT, Firewire, USB, or who knows what. SPDIF is an older form of digital signal that is only two channels. The connectors look like typical RCA style jacks but the cables you buy are different than regular RCA type cables. You'll have to research the other forms of digital signals. MIDI is if you plan to use external synths or samplers or a MIDI controller to play the soft synths (how do you do that now?) PCI (and the other's you mentioned) are PC interfaces to the motherboard. An internal soundcard would plug into a PCI slot (for example). And external audio interface might plug into a USB or Firewire port on the back or side of your computer. Most of the little two channel interfaces you see use USB ports. The better audio interfaces use Firewire (handles more channels of audio). Hope this helps - Have fun shopping. A hundred bucks ain't gonna get you much more than a Soundblaster (I think).
Larry Kriz www.LnLRecording.com www.myspace.com/lnlrecording Sonar PE 8.5, Samplitude Pro 11, Sonic Core Scope Professional/XTC, A16 Ultra AD/DA, Intel DG965RY MOBO, Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz processor, XFX GeForce 7300 GT PCIe video card, Barracuda 750 & 320GB SATA drives, 4GB DDR Ram, Plextor DVD/CD-R burner.
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Spaceduck
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 12:59:32
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ORIGINAL: Sp3ctre18
This is another site I was looking at: http://homerecording.beaglesound.com/9.html
I believe the illustrious author of that article is a member of this forum. Look for the guy who bears a striking resemblance to Shiloh the dog. $100 is pretty tight for a professional grade soundcard, but like kriz said, ebay can be your friend. You can get a M-Audio Delta 1010LT which will have all the features you mentioned. I've never used one, but there are some happy customers on this forum. Pathos mentioned Echo soundcards. Now I can vouch for them. Rock solid and great customer support; find any Echo user and they'll tell you the same. But they generally don't come with built in mic preamps (except for the Echo Mona but HANDS OFF, the next one on ebay is mine!). However if you don't plan on doing any microphone recording, or if you're willing to buy a separate mic preamp, the Echo Layla 24/96 will do the trick very nicely. Lots of Layla users around here. And they can usually be found on ebay for under $100. Good luck!
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Beagle
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 13:16:59
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yeppers! that's my site just like the duck says! and yes, while the EMU0404 is a great card, the patchmix software has been difficult for some users to set up. in your price range the EMU0404 and the M-audio delta 44 would be my recommendations (either can be had for $100 for the PCI version - that's for a DESKTTOP PC only), but again as others have pointed out, you still need a preamp for mics and all the other considerations brought up. a small mixer like the behringer xenyx 802 would provide 2 mic pres with phantom power for $60 more.
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 13:20:14
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i'm writing up a reply but two people have already posted in the mean time! :P i guess the mai nthingfs to say real quick: I correct my budget. I mean i'm trying to get as clsoe to $100 as possigble, $150 is my comfortable max, $200 is...strethcing it. mics are not a consideration right now. That's extra, bonus, w/e and finally, when get a sound card thingy, could I still use my integrated audio? because more nad more it's looking like only really exepnsive stuff has the number of inputs and outputs I currently have. (maybe cuase it's a mid - high end computer; HP Elite 9350f; desktop computer) EDIT: uh....what's this? I looked in my computer to make sure if I had at lesat one PCI slot free, cause I know I don't have 2 slots..... um... I don't see any...at least not what I [used to?] know as PCI... it's a tiny black slot, like.. an inch long..... o.0
post edited by Sp3ctre18 - 2009/01/07 13:28:21
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Beagle
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 13:34:46
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that's a PCIe slot most likely that you're seeing. check your motherboard's specs to be sure. if you don't have an open PCI slot you'll have to go with PCIe (which is WAY out of your price range) or go with a USB or firewire soundcard depending on if you have firewire or not. unfortunately for you USB and firewire cards are typically more expensive than PCI cards (in the low end category) because they also usually include preamps on them (which eliminates the need for a separate mixer in most cases). the EMU0404 USB is $200 and the m-audio fasttrack pro is $200.
would you be able to use your onboard soundcard? no, not really. why would you want to? if you try to use both soundcards at the same time then you will at the very least get sync and latency problems because they have 2 independent clocks but one of them has to be the master clock - so your tracks will start to drift away from each other in time.
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Guitarhacker
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 14:50:46
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Are you on a desk top or lap top? Desk top PCI cards normally go in the back. the 0404 uses one space. You can remove an older PCI card that you are not using anymore...
Laptops on the other hand will almost always require an external interface of the USB or Firewire variety due to internal space limitations.
If 200 is stretching it.... save a little bit more and get a decent interface. Trust me when I say, you will not regret getting a good interface when you are 6 months down the road and recording with it.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 15:23:29
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yeah, all my slots are PCI express. Ugh, didn't PCIe replace PCI a while ago?? Why would anything PCIe be much more expensive? I'm looking at M-audio stuff and they all look like PCI. All new stuff should be PCIe, I'd think. Those m-audio were looking good...  And yes I do have a firewire connection would you be able to use your onboard soundcard? no, not really. why would you want to?
It's because i'm confused and don't know well all these audio connections and I'm worried i'm going to LOSE stuff if I get a good sound card. So I think I need an explantion of this. Here's what my computer has; I had a good look this time:
- In the back, a set of 6 audio ports, marked: in, out, mic, c/sub, rear, and side.
- Way at the bottom where the keyboard and mouse ports, there's a "digital audio out" all by it's lonesome.
- Up higher there's L/R audio jacks, but I think that's on the video card.
- In the front panel, I've got component video plus L/R jacks (ok, I guess that's another vid card input), a headphone jack, and yet another mic input. There's also a black thingy that looks like a PS/2 mouse/keyboard connection.
- Of course, the mic connections are what to me are practically line-in. Same thing, same plug.
Ok, so now I've got my I/O's straightened out. So my questions are, with a soundcard, would I lose any of this, and no. 2... how the heck do you connect a 5 speaker system anyway? I'm confused now, what ports do they go into / what outputs are needed for a speaker system? Oh, and what's S/PDIF used for anyway? I understand it's digital, but, for what? And I also sometines see "coaxial" and "optical." Are they all the same? different? At the very least, really, all I want is for my soft synths to work! If it wasn't for a certain sonar crash, I woudln't even be looking for a soundcard because I was perfectly fine with my realtek onboard sound. At the least, I just don't want to end up worse off. Hopefully a little better off, but at least about the same.. just...working.
post edited by Sp3ctre18 - 2009/01/07 15:32:27
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 15:39:20
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I've edited my original post, and raised the budget. Didn't realize was I was typing, I meant more like $200 max I guess. It's just, don't take that to mean that I really am willing to spend $200. I'm hoping for as close to $100 possible, maybe $150 is as much as i'm ok with spending. 200 is pushing it. man, this is getting confusing.... preamps and condenser mics and phantom power??? I still don't know preamps but at least the other stuff I found on wikipedia. Yeah, forget mic stuff, forget phantom power, don't need any of that stuff. I don't record anything for my music. I think we may be jumping in too high up with all this equipment with all these inputs. I mentioned inputs a lot, but most of them I said would only be bonus or if not that expensive. The least I want is to actually be able to USE sonar and my soft synths, as long as i won't be worse off in any way. So, I think I need to put some things in order of importance. You may give reccomendation at any level. Hopefully more toward the more basic levels. :P
- I just want my soft synths to work! When I first came here, I thought that would be simple soundcard. HD audio, I'd like it to support 5 speakers if I ever get them, and just have your typical inputs, nothing special. I just don't want to be worse off. If I have my audio, my soft synths work, it's reliable and I can count on it for my composing, got line-in, mic, the typical stuff, and 5.1 sound, then that's good. I'll be happy.
- A decent line-in. I'm hoping this is expected with any good soundcard though? I don't need anything really high quality, I just want to be able to record cassette tapes, LPs, whatever. With my old computer, I had to lower the volume on boombox and the volume for that input in the computer, to prevent clipping and be able to stream and record the sound. That caused a lot of noise. My new computer may be more capable but I just haven't tried, but, I'd like to record from boombox without lowering volume so much and causing so much noise. It's just for the audio and to have it digitally, i wouldn't actually use it for anything.
- good latency. Any good soundcard should give me relatively zero latency right? As long as it's a big difference from my current 300ms latency. 300ms latency wasn't that bad because it's like 1/3 second, so when i'd play back my keyboard and hear the note sound very late, it was late enough that I could ignore it, focus on my note pressing and my own rhythm, and then simply drag and drop in sonar to correct. Anything less, however, would get confusing, so near 0 latency, or at least, as long as it's not noticeable when recording live, that'll be good.
Again, i'm hoping all that fits under "good soundcard." That right there is what I'm really looking for. Anything else is just extra, only if it still fits in my budget, and ONLY if the above is covered. Even if it's still in budget, well it'll just be up to me if I want to go this far or not.
- Don't currently need special mic inputs, don't plan to, and not important. Any of that mic stuff whether it's phantom power or mic inputs, that's truly just extra. When I rarely use my mics, they both go to line in anyway. I may want to try recording some instrument that I don't have in soft synths, or at the very least, some percussive sounds, so, the ability to use 2 mics for stereo were I get mics, would be nice; it'd be good to have the option. However, TOTALLY extra. I'd rather save money on more sound libraries.
- RCA inputs. I have 2 sets of L/R from the video card, I don't need anything better right? Besides, I don't see what I would use them for. Totally not interested.
some final things to say again: desktop PC, all slots are PCI Express, and I've only got a PCIe 1x free. Got a firewire connection. USB is not totally out of the question if I must go external, but I'll need to get a USB hub too.
post edited by Sp3ctre18 - 2009/01/07 15:46:57
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Beagle
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 16:06:13
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It's because i'm confused and don't know well all these audio connections and I'm worried i'm going to LOSE stuff if I get a good sound card.
So I think I need an explantion of this. Here's what my computer has; I had a good look this time:
In the back, a set of 6 audio ports, marked: in, out, mic, c/sub, rear, and side.
Way at the bottom where the keyboard and mouse ports, there's a "digital audio out" all by it's lonesome.
Up higher there's L/R audio jacks, but I think that's on the video card.
In the front panel, I've got component video plus L/R jacks (ok, I guess that's another vid card input), a headphone jack, and yet another mic input. There's also a black thingy that looks like a PS/2 mouse/keyboard connection.
Of course, the mic connections are what to me are practically line-in. Same thing, same plug.
Ok, so now I've got my I/O's straightened out. So my questions are, with a soundcard, would I lose any of this, and no. 2... how the heck do you connect a 5 speaker system anyway? I'm confused now, what ports do they go into / what outputs are needed for a speaker system? Oh, and what's S/PDIF used for anyway? I understand it's digital, but, for what? And I also sometines see "coaxial" and "optical." Are they all the same? different? unless you're creating surround sound projects in sonar then you don't need anything more than stereo output. the 6 ports and sub out are for 7.1 which you probably are NOT going to be using - you're likely only using 2 channels and if you do get a sub for your system you can hook it up directly to the stereo output anyway. so if you want 7.1 output for gaming or home theater from your computer you can continue to use those outputs for that, but use the new soundcard for creating your projects in sonar. coaxial digital and optical digital are two different things and if you don't have anything to connect to it then they are useless to you anyway. they are means to send signals which have already been converted from analog to digital through your system. unless you're using an external converter which has an output of coaxial or optical digital then you'll never need it.
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Beagle
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 16:08:14
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Oh - and if you ARE planning on creating 5.1 or 7.1 in sonar - you're not going to do it with a $100 soundcard. sorry. you'll need something with a lot more outputs and those are more expensive.
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 16:13:46
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And I think I need Producer edition to do surround, right? My reason for wanting 5.1 outputs is not for the music, more for movies or maybe gaming. It's not a big deal though, if I need higher end cards, then yeah, forget it. yeah I have no clue about coax and optical... the only coax I know is TV cable, so yeah, probably don't care about it.
post edited by Sp3ctre18 - 2009/01/07 16:18:42
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Beagle
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 16:20:34
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that's OK - you can still use your 5.1, 6.1 whatever system you have on your motherboard for gaming and movies and use the new recording soundcard in sonar only.
and no, the coax is not for cable - it's for digital audio, but again, if you don't have an external converter to send coaxial digital to your system then it's useless to you (as it will be for probably 99% of people who have computers with it on the system!).
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 16:26:23
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hehe ok. Yeah, when I talked about still being able to use my onboard aduio, I did not mean at same time.  Am I just looking for a regular sound card then? I looked at the other products listed in your review... all the firewire and USB stuff seem to be recording stuff. With strange big plus-sign like connctions and mic inputs and referenes to guitars and stuff. PCI stuff seems to be great, looks like sound card + some extea inputs, and a card plus midi would be nice to allow me to free up a USB. But they're all old PCI and not PCIe. So, regular sound card then? I know there's Creative...isn't there another big company too?
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Beagle
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 16:57:19
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Am I just looking for a regular sound card then? I looked at the other products listed in your review... all the firewire and USB stuff seem to be recording stuff. With strange big plus-sign like connctions and mic inputs and referenes to guitars and stuff. If by "regular soundcard" you means something like your onboard soundcard or a soundblaster soundcard, then NO, I don't think we're communicating here. Your onboard soundcard is not really good for recording for use in Sonar. if you want to do all the stuff you listed above, you need a soundcard designed for recording. actually, you're not going to get EVERYTHING you asked for in $100 recording soundcard, but it will be a start. When I rarely use my mics, they both go to line in anyway this must mean that you already have an external preamp? otherwise you can't plug a mic into a LINE LEVEL input. Mic's don't output enough power for LINE LEVEL inputs. good latency. Any good soundcard should give me relatively zero latency right? As long as it's a big difference from my current 300ms latency any "regular" soundcard is not going to give you good low latency. you'll need to spend at least $100 on a recording soundcard with quality drivers in order to get low latency. so, the ability to use 2 mics for stereo were I get mics, would be nice; it'd be good to have the option. However, TOTALLY extra. I'd rather save money on more sound libraries. then a PCI soundcard with LINE level inputs will be fine for you until you need to connect mics up. when you need to record a mic, then you'll need to buy an external preamp like a small mixer. RCA inputs. I have 2 sets of L/R from the video card, I don't need anything better right? Besides, I don't see what I would use them for. Totally not interested. I don't understand what your video card has to do with anything. some final things to say again: desktop PC, all slots are PCI Express, and I've only got a PCIe 1x free. Got a firewire connection. USB is not totally out of the question if I must go external, but I'll need to get a USB hub too. there are only a few soundcards which are designed for PCIe yet at this point. that will probably change in the near future, but at this time there aren't many and those that do exist are way out of your budget. firewire is a good choice, but they're typically out of your budget as well. usb is a good choice but they're more expensive than just a simple PCI card with simple 2 analog LINE inputs because there aren't many without mic pres on them. bottom line. if you want low latency for your softsynths, you'll need a recording soundcard. if you can't use a PCI card, you'll have to buy a USB or Firewire card here's something that will give you low latency without too much else: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-Fast-Track-USB-Computer-Recording-Interface?sku=703606 however - if you plug it into a USB hub that will likely cause problems. you may have to unplug things while you're working on music
post edited by Beagle - 2009/01/07 17:26:02
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 18:03:29
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No, I doubt it's your fault. I just don't understand a lot of this audio stuff. ORIGINAL: Beagle
Your onboard soundcard is not really good for recording for use in Sonar. if you want to do all the stuff you listed above, you need a soundcard designed for recording. actually, you're not going to get EVERYTHING you asked for in $100 recording soundcard, but it will be a start. Ok, let's start here. First off, I raised my budget, more like $150, or $200 at max. Maybe we need to clear up this "recording stuff." To me, when i've been seeing all this stuff and I see "recording," I take that to mean...well, recording something like, a mic, an external source, electric guitar, boombox.... and that's not really what I'm looking for. I work with soft synths, EWQL SO Gold as a PLAY plugin into Sonar. I used to be working on a high-end bt 6-year old computer with integrated audio and that was working perfectly for me. The only reason I bought a new comptuer is beacuse I needed more Ram and needed x64. On this new computer, I also used its integreted audio, and it was just fine. Nothiner ever seemed to get taxed or have an issue. Only on my old computer and that was becuase of Ram filling up with my samples. Then something went wrong on my compy, and sonar doesn't want to work if there's a soft synth in. no idea why. *shrugs* All I need it for my synth to work in sonar, so that's why I thought maybe a regular sound card like, I dunno, creative's sound blaster X-fi titanium or something. this must mean that you already have an external preamp? otherwise you can't plug a mic into a LINE LEVEL input. Mic's don't output enough power for LINE LEVEL inputs. I don't know what a preamp is exactly, I looked it up...it's confusing. I think you can assume I don't have ANYTHING lol. I don't do audio stuff. The microphones I refer to are a PC microphone and a ancient hand-held mike that's got an adaptor on it so I can plug into computer. Maybe you're right about the line in. It's plugged into "mic" right now. On my old computer, i'm pretty sure i used line in and mic interchangeable. Maybe that's why mic input was really quiet sometimes, but I could be wrong. any "regular" soundcard is not going to give you good low latency. you'll need to spend at least $100 on a recording soundcard with quality drivers in order to get low latency. Alright. And I should clarify actually, by latency I'm referring to midi events from keyboard, the delay between pressing and hearing/showing up in sonar.
then a PCI soundcard with LINE level inputs will be fine for you until you need to connect mics up. when you need to record a mic, then you'll need to buy an external preamp like a small mixer.
ok, got it... and yeah, vid card isn't related lol. here's something that will give you low latency without too much else:
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-Fast-Track-USB-Computer-Recording-Interface?sku=703606
however - if you plug it into a USB hub that will likely cause problems. you may have to unplug things while you're working on music
Ok, these external stuff is what confuses me, but I guess it's just the looks that's throwing me off. it looks like a recording thingy, no mention of sound playback or processing. So are you saying that IS a soundcard, just, it's got more stuff and that makes it a "Recording soundcard" as you call it? So it still acts like a regular soundcard like to playback my music and stuffs? it just...what, has more processing power or something?
post edited by Sp3ctre18 - 2009/01/07 18:11:11
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AT
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 20:09:35
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Spectre,
into the breech again. The soundcard on your computer is good for listening to non-critical music, gaming, and warning beeps and such. You can run it concurrent with a better sound card - you just have to assign your recording software to the better interface.
What we are talking about is an audio interface that you can hook up to a speaker/amp so you can hear your glorious, selfproduced music over better than computer speakers. However, most people use them to input acoustic sound, hence most of them include i/o. At this point, you don't have to worry about input, just output. A real interface will also give you lower latency when playing softsynths (a built-in card has problems with that, as you have discovered).
For $200 you can get the Emu or M-audio. Both should work fine, once you get it set up. They also will allow you to record audio if you ever want/need to do that, but the main thing is that they will give you a nice signal out and let you play a softsynth in real time. Just ignore the inputs at this time.
If you are happy with computer speakers you'll have to get cables with the proper connections between the two. If you want to use your computer soundcard, too, you'll need a second set of them. But you'll probably like a set of better speakers/amp - 5 or more inch woofers.
Have a look at audiomidi page for recording. You are probably looking at a usb interface (firewire seems to be more and there doesn't seem to be any budget pcie units). I use a presonus fw unit with no problems and there is a cheap yamaha (PRICE TOO LOW TO PRINT), besides the other units listed.
hope this helps. It is confusing if you are coming from the music world rather than the recording world. But it ain't rocket science once you get the terminology down.
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 20:43:00
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ah ok, yes thank you very much; yes that clears it up better. :) the only thing that I still don't understand is, unless the interface has midi I/O, how would it drop my latency issue if my midi goes straight into the computer and this audio interface is external? It would seem to me like for that to work, my midi event goes into the computer through USb, somehow goes back out through usb into the interface, then back into the computer through usb. o.O doesn't sound liek that would be good for latency..... you're sscaring me with the speaker thing though lol. I'd need a different connection? or even another set of speakers?
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Beagle
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 21:49:52
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Because latency is caused by your round trip from your MIDI controller into the computer thru the software synth and out thru the soundcard. if the soundcard is not designed for low latency and has low latency drivers then it will slow down the time between when you press a key on the keyboard and the time you HEAR it coming from the sound card. it's not the MIDI input, it's the soundcard throughput that slows down the sound.
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 22:11:39
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oh... ok I see. Hearing part doesn't concern me much though, more importantly is the midi input registering in sonar. I don't mind hearing late, because I can just mute if I want, but I'd like my playing on the keyboard registering asap into midi event in sonar.
Is that a different thing, or same explanation?
(and btw, this isn't questioning it and thus not advancing anywhere; just for mah eddycation and while I keep looking at the this stuff, the reccomendtations, looking at the webpages...)
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Beagle
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 22:40:39
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That's completely different. you shouldn't have ANY noticable difference between the time you hit a key on the keyboard and the time it gets recorded in sonar (there's a very small difference, but we should be talking less than 1 msec). are you saying that you do have a difference?
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 22:47:46
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should be instant? O.o heck yeah, i have a latency of 1/3 to 1/2 a second. This is the latecny issue I've been talking about all along, lol. I guess I wasn't clear, i'm sorry. It's the same latency (or close enough) as the delay between pressing the note and hearing it. This my latency issue. When i've mentioend it before, I could be wrong, but I hear people say it's the integrated sound that is just slow... I need a soundcard or something if I want low latecny. I use a yamaha MIDI to USB cable, UX16, and again, my sound is integrated realtek HD audio.
post edited by Sp3ctre18 - 2009/01/07 22:52:21
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Beagle
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 23:21:30
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how are you measuring the time between when you press a key and the time it shows up in sonar?
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Sp3ctre18
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RE: ASAP! suggestions for sound card or interface
2009/01/07 23:30:43
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no accurate way. Mainly i just know that at 120 bpm, if I hit the note on the beat, I'll hear it / it'll register in sonar a beat later (roughly). I've actually used that to my advantage a few times, and it has caused audible mistakes and rythm irregularities that gave me ideas for a better part.
post edited by Sp3ctre18 - 2009/01/08 00:34:04
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