bitman
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Vastman
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 01:41:39
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Dana We make the future... Climate Change MusicVastMaschine:SP4L/W10/i74930K/32GB/RME/CAD E100s; The Orchestra! NOVO!/Inspire/BohemianViolin&Cello, ARK1&2,/MinimalCapriccioMaximoSoto/OE1&2, Action&Emotive/Omni2/Tril/RMX/All OrangeTree/Falcon/APE Jugs/Alpha&Bravo/BFD3 & SD3Gravity/DM307/AEON/DM/Damage/Diva/HZebra/Hive/Diversion/VC4/Serum/Alchemy/blablablaSpitfire/8DIO/SL/KH/EW/NI; Shred1&2/AGF,G,M&T Torch&Res&Ren/GD-6; Ibanez SR1200&SR505NOVAX FanFret Tele&Strat
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Zargg
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 02:17:12
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Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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Kylotan
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 04:30:53
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☄ Helpfulby Resonant Serpent 2016/03/08 09:18:47
"Man who makes money by writing software wants you to stop complaining that it isn't good enough".
Excuses.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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subtlearts
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 05:29:21
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Kylotan
"Man who makes money by writing software wants you to stop complaining that it isn't good enough".
Excuses.
Disagree. Man who has a long track record writing useful software, running successful software companies, and writing influential bestselling books about software and business, and arguably understands these things as profoundly as anyone, explains his viewpoint - backed by all of that experience - of how software developers and companies (at least those likely to stay in business) view the subject. You think he's whining, so we should believe you? Riiiiiight.
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ChristopherM
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 06:05:31
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BobF
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 06:41:39
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The easy way to exceed expectations. Set them low to begin with.
Of course all software has bugs. It's where and how many that matters. We all have our own level of tolerance for bugs. Personally, if I get bit by a bug more than a couple of times over an extended time frame, resulting in enough wasted effort to make me say lotsa naughty words, then I *need* that particular bug fixed. Sure, workarounds are a good way to keep moving forward UNTIL THE BUG GETS FIXED. When enough workarounds become part of the standard procedure, the path from A to B is no longer direct. How many extra miles are you willing to drive every day to avoid potholes in the road(s)? What if EVERY ROAD has potholes?
Unfortunately, like other aspects of life in current times, we often hold our noses while we make choices for whatever is least aggravating. It would be great to have really great choices. To choose something because of its inherent awesomeness instead of it being the least bothersome to deal with.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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patm300e
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 06:58:42
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Yep, as a software developer myself II have to agree with this one.
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azslow3
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 07:56:59
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☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2016/03/08 08:56:37
As a software developer I want to write my view on software bugs: 1) there are useful big programs with rather small set of bugs, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeX2) every identified and proved bug with known origin should be fixed 3) while every program has bugs, there is a big different how the software package in general deals with them. For example modern OS is not crashing when the bug is in user application. In other words, the program should be prepared to hit a bug (of any kind except computer hardware related) and have clear approach what to do in this case. Not live critical applications normally ignore (3). Marketing force to ignore (1) and (2) since users are ready to accept the consequences. For many peaces of quite expensive hardware there was no "released" drivers at all. Software is crashing or not working as expected. Still people pay money. So, why spend time and effort for fixing? But proposing to lower the expectation level is wrong. The fact something exists "everywhere" can not justify the proposal to be quite about that. There are many killers, thefts, etc. They always was, are and will be. Should we propose to remove the laws against them?
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mettelus
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 08:34:55
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☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2016/03/08 08:56:55
The critical nature of bugs is definitely a massive factor, and this article seems to want to lump them into one big bucket, which is definitely not true.
Imagine a financial institution with a bug which would compromise your money... I have overhauled such systems, and not a single customer would say "All software has bugs" to such an incident, especially since a catastrophic one would earn you front and center at a Congressional hearing.
Bugs which have risk of catastrophic loss (loss of life, loss of property, et.al.) definitely do not get lumped into "all bugs are the same." Even smaller ones are not as forgivable when large quantities of time are lost. From a marketing perspective, one cannot give themselves a bigger black eye than to knowingly release a bug, be it product or service... things like the Ford Pinto, Challenger disaster, and the like were all known (and evaluated) prior to "release"... the most extreme examples to be sure, but if you aim high and miss you still hit a lot higher than aiming low and being on target.
The mindset of "good enough, get it out" ends up snowballing more often than not in my experience... there comes a time when a person not familiar with what was done is turned to to fix it... as long as the product has a defined end-of-life this can be gotten away with, but if the product is perpetual the snowball grows.
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Paul P
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 08:36:44
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I think the level of bugginess depends a lot on the expertise of developers, their rigour and the philosophy they adopt. If you set out from the very beginning to produce solid software there'll be far less bugs than if you have inexperienced programmers just throw together code to address a need and figure that'll you'll address any bugs later on as users discover them.
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pwalpwal
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 08:43:09
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and let's not forget, it's not the devs or the end-users who decides which bugs get fixed ;-)
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Anderton
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 09:47:46
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I think one of the takeaways from the article is that fixing bugs is an iterative process. I don't write software, but I can relate because I write words. My first drafts usually suck; there are loads of "bugs." So I do an edit, and quash most of the serious ones, like typos, bad flow, etc. Then I do another edit to clean up phrasing, and try to find statements that can be interpreted in more than one way. Then it gets down to a comma here, a semicolon there. Eventually, I find no more issues to correct, and then submit the article for publication. However...if I re-read it a year later, I see things that could have been said better, and I think I should have done another edit. The problem is that software is written by humans. As long as there is human error, there will be software bugs, car accidents, missed appointments, football fumbles, plane crashes, automobile recalls, unanticipated side effects from drugs, botched appliance installations, etc. Come to think of it, software doesn't have bugs... humans have bugs that get transferred to the software 
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BobF
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 09:51:20
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Having read a large number of your writings, there must not be very many bugs because I keep reading them.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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azslow3
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 10:25:29
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Anderton
I think one of the takeaways from the article is that fixing bugs is an iterative process. I don't write software, but I can relate because I write words. My first drafts usually suck; there are loads of "bugs." So I do an edit, and quash most of the serious ones, like typos, bad flow, etc. Then I do another edit to clean up phrasing, and try to find statements that can be interpreted in more than one way. Then it gets down to a comma here, a semicolon there. Eventually, I find no more issues to correct, and then submit the article for publication.
What you describe are not "bugs". That are "hard to use interface" for visible part and "not optimized algorithms" in invisible part of software. Can be annoying, but as with typos and bad flow (which for sure you could already notice in my bad English...) you read throw and move on. A "bug" will be to write "LANRD is a VST for Sonar"  I normally try to avoid any code modification ("never touch running system") when it produce correct result. Unlike an article, close to no one is interested how good or bad the code is written. That is important difference between these two "arts".
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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pwalpwal
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 10:34:22
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Anderton
I don't write software, but I can relate because I write words.
the only similarity is the typing
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ChristopherM
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 11:00:53
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Anderton
I don't write software, but I can relate because I write words.
Except that generally the impact of bugs in writing is to produce soft failures. In many, many cases, it is easily possible for the reader to work around the bug with little-or-no loss of meaning. (This is not true when the material in question is mainly communicating data, especially numbers, of course.) Even when I type quickly and make mistakes, you can provaly still get whta I intended. Bugs in software (at least, the ones that get us exercised) typically produce hard failures and stop the show, or ensure that the desired end result cannot be achieved.
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Anderton
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 11:27:51
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My premise wasn't that writing words was the same thing as writing software. The premise was in the first sentence, about an iterative process.
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azslow3
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 12:18:02
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Anderton
My premise wasn't that writing words was the same thing as writing software. The premise was in the first sentence, about an iterative process.
It is too generic then, with the "production cycles" (not only in Software) approach. But if we take one practical example.... MIDI FX in Sonar. Implemented with problems and it looks like with some bugs, at least before 2003. Still there, unchanged, 2016
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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Paul P
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 12:37:54
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azslow3
But if we take one practical example.... MIDI FX in Sonar. Implemented with problems and it looks like with some bugs, at least before 2003. Still there, unchanged, 2016
And I'm sure it could be redone from the ground up and not have any bugs at all. It's not like a mission to Mars.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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pwalpwal
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 12:41:49
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Paul P
azslow3
But if we take one practical example.... MIDI FX in Sonar. Implemented with problems and it looks like with some bugs, at least before 2003. Still there, unchanged, 2016
And I'm sure it could be redone from the ground up and not have any bugs at all. It's not like a mission to Mars.
and no-one said how big the iterations might be anyway
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 13:12:52
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pwalpwal
and let's not forget, it's not the devs or the end-users who decides which bugs get fixed ;-)
So who is it?
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ChristopherM
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 13:30:19
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 14:32:11
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ChristopherM
The suits.
Going to be tough to find a person wearing a suit at Cakewalk :)
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LANEY
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 14:46:04
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LOL!
The suits. too funny!
Good luck finding them.
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jpetersen
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 15:44:37
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☄ Helpfulby lingyai 2016/03/09 20:12:55
Not sure how many clients I'd still have if I took that as a professional leitmotif.
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microapp
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 16:13:33
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☄ Helpfulby lingyai 2016/03/09 20:21:06
I am inclined to agree with Azslow's take on the matter rather than the Ruby on Rails author.
Bugs may be inevitable but never allow complacency regarding their existence to creep into your work ethic.
Errors in performing a piece of music live (or otherwise) are inevitable.
Is any serious musician going to say 'Don't worry about it and by the way I don't want to hear bad reviews about it either' ?
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slartabartfast
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 16:48:14
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One takeaway from the article is that not all bugs need to be fixed in order to keep selling the software. The other is that it is easier to fix bugs if the effort to constantly deliver more features is subordinated to making the features work as designed. The clear implication is that the users are demanding buggy software as an unavoidable result of demanding more and newer features, and paying the price for new features by having them not work as described. So the software buyers are clearly the ones at fault here. The suits and coders are just giving them what they want at a price they can afford.
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FanCake 
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 16:57:48
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☄ Helpfulby Kylotan 2016/03/09 09:26:04
Kylotan
"Man who makes money by writing software wants you to stop complaining that it isn't good enough".
Excuses.
subtlearts
Disagree. Man who has a long track record writing useful software, running successful software companies, and writing influential bestselling books about software and business, and arguably understands these things as profoundly as anyone, explains his viewpoint - backed by all of that experience - of how software developers and companies (at least those likely to stay in business) view the subject. You think he's whining, so we should believe you? Riiiiiight.
Ah Mr Ruby on Rails. I'm sure all their customers were thinking just that when this happened
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jpetersen
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Re: About bugs.
2016/03/08 17:11:46
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Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
pwalpwal
and let's not forget, it's not the devs or the end-users who decides which bugs get fixed ;-)
So who is it?
I ask myself this question, too. This extract from the Newburyport e-zine: Fixed issues where: ... * Clean Audio Folders could hang when scanning multiple drives
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