No Mike I didn't get the joke...
As of late I'm a little edgy and really, after releasing Whisper and for the first time a copy amp...BRAIN, I find myself defending my work and even my words a lot, so If I'm short, thats why...Between here, and KVR, and other forums, I am sick of being on the defensive...I am only trying to give away some plugs that hopefully people find useful and enjoy...thats it.

I'm of the opinion that real life tube devices are easy to acquire... not as easy as a free plugin maybe... but not so hard that "make believe" tubes should be accepted as a practical substitute with out question of how they are described.


How else do you describe a 12AU7....Did you want me to post the code? I'm sure that If I went into detail, there would be a lot of people with long faces...When I release an amp I'm not going into that much detail...If you like it great, if you don't well thats fine too, but at least it didn't cost you anything to try it...

Good sounding circuit...
OK... If I say that.. All of a sudden I start getting **** for posting lies because.... JoeBlow doesn't like the sound of it and "how dare I say it is a good sounding circuit" So, ??

"Hey, I'm just telling you how I feel... "
So am I..

"and I see by your response over at KVR that you're not forth coming in discussing your insights about the mathematical modeling that you use to represent "tubes". "

Well I would be If that guy had not attacked me in the beginning....

12AU7 Is a real tube, designed in 1947(Apparently)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12AU7

Less gain than a 12AX7, in terms of code...
less gain = lower level going into the tube, also means that my temperature settings for the tube have to be lower, and a zillion other factors. Also in terms of code, there is common elements to all real tubes, likewise, there is common elements to all coded tube's. So, some of these common elements never change from tube to tube code wise, There are only variables that change. So, most of the code will remain the same,

For example..
12AX7
Plate Voltage ................................. 330 V
Plate Dissipation ............................. 1.2 W

12AU7
Triode 1
Plate Voltage ................................. 300 V
Plate Dissipation ............................. 2.75 W

So, in this case the variables change between tubes... Plate Voltage, and Plate Dissipation...So very simply put, in my code I make sure that those variables are set to what they are supposed to be for that tube... Obviously there are other factors involved as well...I certainly can't explain a tube based on 2 variables...but I hope that gives you an idea how it works...
KM

"12AU7 Is a real tube" 12AU7

Yes, I know, I have a dozen or more NOS examples and a few that I place in amps on occasions.


When you use terms like "random" (I'm still not sure the context you intended when you spoke of it on that KVR thread you linked too) and "zillions" (as you have above) it makes me wonder what you are doing even more. :-)

I was imagining there might be five or six parameters that replicate a tube in your designs.

For example; The 12Au7 has a gain factor that is somewhere between 1/5 and 2/5ths of a 12AX7... why would you lower the input to the modeled tube? It seems to make more sense to lower the output of the 12AU7... to simulate the reduced gain factor.

Another example: The 12Au7 can, as you mention handle about 3 times the power that a 12AX7 can... and that is why it is on occasions used at the end of a series of gain stages... where things may get out of hand in the earlier stages and the 12AU7 literally serves as a safety valve. The extra capability is helpful if you want to to use the 12au7 for it's intended use as an oscillator or a small push pull amplifier.

This example is, in my mind, the primary parameter to consider; The plate resistance of the 12AX7 is 60 to 80 Mega Ohms while the 12AU7 sports a whopping 6 to 7 kilo Ohms.... I would think that would be a big factor when modeling this tube up in a circuit.

re; Temperature: ??? I'm left scratching my head... perhaps you're referring to bias? The temperature will largely be determined by the heaters and both tubes are rated to run on 0.3amps at 6.3watts so unless you really flow some current through the 12AU7 and get near the 2.5watt plate dissapation the temp is going to be remarkably similar. If you really want to model a 12AU7 getting rocked hard then I'd program the temperature to e higher.

re: Plate dissipation: I assume you factor in the fact that the Plate dissipation is a *potential* value... the two tubes can attain those levels of output IF they are driven appropriately... but they have to be driven by some previous stage. So again it seems as if you would turn down the gain of the "12AU7" and someone increase amplification to the stage just before the *12AU7* to make the model act faithfully to "real" life.

It seems like calling it a BX67EG42 tube might be a good idea... seeing how there are so many real 12AU7s already out there. :-)

best regards,
mike

OK well there are a lot of variables/parameters involved....Perhaps not zillions :)
Some Parameters/variables are what I call master parameters/variables, Parameters that affect multiple other parameters, one such variable that I use is heat...which is from 0 to 1...This affects many other factors in the AMP/VST We have no way to generate real heat, so we have to make changes around the schematic when we increase or decrease this value...

"For example; The 12Au7 has a gain factor that is somewhere between 1/5 and 2/5ths of a 12AX7... why would you lower the input to the modeled tube? It seems to make more sense to lower the output of the 12AU7... to simulate the reduced gain factor."


In my system the way I have it setup, input into a tube determines the amount of Distortion...I can have any value here period....0001 all the way to a "zillion" But I do agree with you...but not where Whisper is concerned... I have set that up differently..

"Another example: The 12Au7 can, as you mention handle about 3 times the power that a 12AX7 can... and that is why it is on occasions used at the end of a series of gain stages... where things may get out of hand in the earlier stages and the 12AU7 literally serves as a safety valve. The extra capability is helpful if you want to to use the 12au7 for it's intended use as an oscillator or a small push pull amplifier. "


Yes In the real world...I am in the digital world where anything goes, In this world I am not governed by anything..Except, does it sound right?

This example is, in my mind, the primary parameter to consider; The plate resistance of the 12AX7 is 60 to 80 Mega Ohms while the 12AU7 sports a whopping 6 to 7 kilo Ohms.... I would think that would be a big factor when modeling this tube up in a circuit.


It would be to some one modeling an entire amp that exists in the real world...

re; Temperature: ??? I'm left scratching my head... perhaps you're referring to bias? The temperature will largely be determined by the heaters and both tubes are rated to run on 0.3amps at 6.3watts so unless you really flow some current through the 12AU7 and get near the 2.5watt plate dissapation the temp is going to be remarkably similar. If you really want to model a 12AU7 getting rocked hard then I'd program the temperature to e higher.


No Bias is a different setting in this tube....See the above Temperature is used to affect multiple parameters at once, also voltage is used to affect temperature...so These are settings that I have access to, but you don't in the real world, could you at the flick of a switch tell a tube to heat up by 180 degrees exactly?..In the digital world we can do that type of thing, further to that...We could even tell the tube to heat up every time you played an A chord and not cool down until you played a G...Like I said anything goes...

re: Plate dissipation: I assume you factor in the fact that the Plate dissipation is a *potential* value... the two tubes can attain those levels of output IF they are driven appropriately... but they have to be driven by some previous stage. So again it seems as if you would turn down the gain of the "12AU7" and someone increase amplification to the stage just before the *12AU7* to make the model act faithfully to "real" life.


Well It all depends on how you have your model setup....If you are trying to be true to a real world model of an amp, then you would do things a whole lot different than I did in Whisper, but If you are simply trying to warm up a sound, then you use whatever works...In this case I believe it worked..So it drives similar to a 12AU7, It warms the overall sound up, so, I figured mission accomplished...

Its real easy to test as well, just go get DIG 2.0 Record a Whisper track from that, then Record a Whisper Tube track...The type of sound I heard in my head when building this, I believe I achieved...

Hope that helps, and I guess I miss read you earlier, For that I apologize, I'm a little trigger happy lately..I have been attacked a little too much recently, so much so that I have cancelled all the rest of this weeks downloads just to answer forum posts...There was an additional 6 products to come this week. I may be able to finish some but I won't make 6 thats for sure...But then again, you never know...I am certainly way behind in the development schedule...
KM

I'm glad you updated your post.

After reading your explanation I'm left wondering... why are you using the name of a real life tube?

Your explanation makes the digital realm seem like a utopia... or at least a world of endless possibilities. So why indulge in misplaced and anachronistic nomenclature?

That's the only part I have a contrary comment about... it seems like bad theater.

best regards,
mike

Well kcearl, I think the answer is that I have an interest in sound and it's hard to speak about it with other people when terms as specific as a part number are used euphemistically and with whimsy.

For example; you may be visiting my studio and say something like "wow, that sounds JUST like a 12AU7" and I'll be left to think you have no idea what you are speaking about. That's not useful.

It's already starting to happen with the amp sim crowd... I'm weary of witnessing virtual, virtual, experts of tone walk up to real life amplifiers and make some inane comment about how it doesn't sound like the patch they have tweaked in Guitar Rig.

This isn't a criticism of digital tone... this is a critique of a culture that accepts a facade... in the this case the specific use of a vacuum tube part number as a substitute for education and understanding of the tools they have at their disposal.

Use digital with gusto!!! Why play make believe?

I think a line exists... whether one knows it or not... and I don't think taking part in accepting the idea that a specific tube can be modeled with what I regard as an make believe impressionistic approach is helpful to the evolution of the craft of making music.

Like I say it seems way more useful to simply describe the amp as a sincere attempt to present something that sounds good.

best regards,
mike


edit spelling

Ok, thanks Johnny.

best regards,
mike

You make some real good points kcearl.

all the best,
mike

I've just discovered your guitar plugins, and I've barely had a chance to play around with them much yet, but I must say they do sound really good.  Hoever, I did have a problem with one of the Canadian Metal plugins in SONAR.  I have SONAR 8.31 Producer, and the SoloC_FullStack_v1_05 plugin causes SONAR to immediately exit to the desktop upon insertion, without any type of crash or error dialog whatsoever.  I believe all of the others at least inserted without any problems, and appeared to work, but as I said I haven't had a chance to use them extensively yet.
 
Bill