Helpful ReplyAcoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem...

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Voda La Void
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2016/04/10 18:02:11 (permalink)

Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem...

I'm almost dialed in to a good drum sound, in my opinion, but the toms just aren't doing it for me.  I really like a kit that's designed around metal and hard rock, busy tom work most of the time.  I am particularly fond of Danny Cary's tom sound (from Tool), and I know I can't compare to his studio set up, but I was hoping I could get close.  
 
Attached a link to a short sound file from a song I'm working on (please forgive the choppy percussion, I'm still trying knock the rust off and I'm not very fluid on this one yet).  Catatonia
 
Any ideas on what I need to tweak, EQ wise?  Or with the tom mics?  (I'm using a poor man's mic set up, a Sampson drum mic kit.)  They just sound a bit boomy to me, like too much shell and not quite enough attack.  But I'm just not sure.  I have zero experience recording drums, save for that song I posted on here last month. 

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bitflipper
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/10 21:21:47 (permalink)
A transient designer might help if you've got one. 
 
Do you have bottom skins on those toms? If not, you could try miking from below.


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Voda La Void
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/11 10:03:42 (permalink)
Unfortunately I do not have a transient designer.  And yes, I do have bottom skins on my toms.  I wonder if I should tune them down a bit, back off on the resonance.  They just seemed a little dead before I tuned them up.  
 
Thanks for the suggestion, I may take the bottom heads off and try that if it comes to that.  

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bapu
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/11 12:14:50 (permalink)
Voda La Void
experiments in disturbing frequencies...

As per your sig, what's the problem then?
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Voda La Void
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/11 13:32:54 (permalink)
bapu
Voda La Void
experiments in disturbing frequencies...

As per your sig, what's the problem then?




I guess I forgot my own mission statement... doh!  

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dcumpian
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/11 14:49:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Voda La Void 2016/04/11 16:19:59
The PX-64 contains a transient designer of sorts. You can use it to sculpt your drum sound and it comes with Sonar.
 
Regards,
Dan

Mixing is all about control.
 
My music:
http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.    
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Voda La Void
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/11 15:34:56 (permalink)
dcumpian
The PX-64 contains a transient designer of sorts. You can use it to sculpt your drum sound and it comes with Sonar.
 
Regards,
Dan




I don't currently have Sonar, rather the old Home Studio 2.  I was going to check out Sonar's system requirements to see what I'd have to upgrade on my PC to use it, but it says "Page Not Found".  I'm fairly shocked since that would seem like a busy page since people need to know before they buy it.
 
I'm probably just going to have to play on the mixer some more, tune my toms more accurately.  I really want to get away from DAW processing to get the drum sound and stick with mixer settings, mic placements and etc..  Staring at my monitor and all the tedious audio processing is what has burned me out and kept me out of my studio.  Even if the sound is sacrificed, I can't do it anymore.  
 
Thanks for the suggestion.  Hopefully I can take the plunge and upgrade my DAW to Sonar before the end of the year.  

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scook
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/11 15:41:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Voda La Void 2016/04/11 16:19:44
Here are the system requirements http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Knowledge-Base/2007013383/SONAR-Platinum-Professional-Artist-System-Requirements
 
It appears the CW site is undergoing a little remodeling. I sent a PM to the staff about the bad link.
 
 
In addition to the PX-64 Percussion Strip, Platinum includes a dedicated Transient Shaper plug-in, the TS-64.
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Voda La Void
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/11 16:13:03 (permalink)
scook - much thanks.  
 
Ok so don't laugh...but I still use windows XP and archaic Home Studio software.  I have wrenched every bit of value out of that purchase, at this point, ha ha.  Sonar's requirement to upgrade windows and memory means building a whole new PC, in my case.  I can't do that any time soon.  
 
I was just hoping against hope that I wasn't EQ'ing something right - because minor EQ changes seem to really change the sound a lot.  I figured I'm doing something obviously wrong.  

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batsbrew
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/11 17:58:05 (permalink)
when you are talking about capturing pro sounding live drums,
you are stepping out of the typical home studio,
and asking for a lot.
 
i love cary's drum sounds....
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Danny_Carey.html
http://www.totaldrumsets.com/danny-carey.html
i haven't heard a bad sonor kit yet...
http://www.uberproaudio.com/who-plays-what/189-tool-danny-carey-drum-kit-gear-and-drum-set-equipment
 
 
Barresi tracked Carey's extensive drum kit at the now-defunct O'Henry using the studio's massive API console (more than 16 feet long!), which has 88 inputs fitted with enhanced API modules and traditional API-style 2520 amps. Barresi explains how he captured Carey's kit: “I used a lot of close miking since he has such a large kit. I used three overheads: left, center and right. Then I filled in the other cymbals with spot microphones. The toms were all miked top and bottom. Kick and snare, pretty normal stuff. I had a couple of different stages of room mics: fairly close, middle of the room and then very distant. It was the kind of room where you could use the distant mics fairly loud without getting too much delay. What a beautiful-sounding studio!”
The album is loaded with electronic and acoustic percussion, all played live by Carey. “When I first showed up to their rehearsal,” Barresi explains. “I thought there were eight guys inside playing. I was like, ‘Who's playing percussion in there?’ And it turns out that it's all Dan. He has Mandala electronic pads that his friend Vince De Franco designed for him. He plays the Mandala pads, and they trigger sounds that he has sampled himself. It sounds like he has eight limbs.”
- See more at: http://www.mixonline.com/...7#sthash.hts2z14o.dpuf
 
 
 
so i believe you really have to step up your game with dialing in drum sounds for recording....
but he also uses a LOT of electronic drums,
so you should read up on that quite a bit.
 
you'll need multiple compressors (external hardware) and a bunch of gates....
really good overheads, and a really good sounding room.
 
 

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Voda La Void
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/11 20:39:10 (permalink)
Holy hell that's way beyond realistic for me.  I knew about his custom Sonor kit but I didn't realize there was that much mic'ing going on and I had no idea he invested that much into electronic drums.  No wonder they sound so great. 
 
Honestly, even if I had an 88 input console with all those mics, I'd be lost trying to make it all work together.  But isn't that set up amazing?  I would love to see what it looked like recording. 
 
I'll just have to settle for what I have and make the best of it.  Recording live drums is where I'm staying, so I'll just have to keep chipping away at it to get the best result I can.  
 
Thanks for sharing.  I'm going to enjoy the article on making 10,000 days now...

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bitflipper
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/12 11:00:14 (permalink)
Just as when miking a guitar speaker, the distance, angle and where the mic is pointing make a surprisingly big difference on the sound you pick up from a drum. The easiest thing to experiment with would be moving the microphone(s) around, e.g. raising them higher or aiming the mikes off-center.
 
Here's a drum-miking guide published by Shure. It's not very deep or technical, but good basic advice.


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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/19 01:58:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Voda La Void 2016/04/19 09:13:33
There are many factors in achieving pro quality acoustic drum tracks.
It's one of the hardest instruments for the home studio to record (well)... especially if you lack experience/gear... and (also important) good sounding physical space.
 
First, does the kit sound good in the room?
ie: If tuning on the toms is "out to lunch"... there's no mic/preamp/processor that's going to rescue it.
Tuning drums well (especially toms) is an acquired skill.
If the kit is sounding great in the room, then move on to mic'ing.
 
Start with a pair of overheads.
Place them... and do some test recordings.
The bulk of your drum sound should come from the overheads.
That's where all the details are captured.
If the overheads don't sound great... don't bother slapping up more mics.
Move the overheads until there's a good balance of the whole kit.
Cymbals sound best from a distance.  All the good stuff... none of the clang/gong
 
Once the overheads are sounding great, add spot mics to fill out the individual drums.
On snare, the SM57 works well.  You get a nice tight focused "mid" from a SM57.
On kick, you want a mic with a larger diaphragm (helps capture the lower fundamental).
On small to mid toms, a SM57 works well.
On larger toms, you need a larger diaphragm mic to capture that low "DOOOOM".  
A SM57 or similar won't capture that huge bottom end.
 
As with recording any other instrument:
It sounds all too obvious... but the way to achieve good drum sounds is at the source.  
 
Quality mics make a huge difference.
You an achieve really nice drum recordings using 4 mics
  • Pair of AKG C414-XLS as overheads capture a nice, full, detailed representation of the kit.
  • SM57 on the snare
  • RE20, Beta 52, D112 (or other large diaphragm mic) on the kick
In this type scenario, the toms won't sound as full as if they were close mic'd.
But... it's easier to get 4 mics positioned well...
If the toms sound good but could use a little more "girth", you can isolate those hits/tracks and use EQ.
 
At this point, the drumkit tracks should sound pretty good when playing back.
For modern styles (pop/rock/country), I like to route all drum tracks to a drum subgroup... and apply an SSL type bus compressor.  This tightens up the sound... adds some attack/weight... without sounding overly processed.
If you're going for a natural "in the room" drum sound... you can also add a little reverb to the drum subgroup.
 
Get the fundamentals right... and your drum tracks will sound markedly better.
I'd start simple... learn... and then expand to more complex setups/scenarios.
A great sounding 4-piece kit will blow away a mediocre 10 piece recording.

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
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Voda La Void
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/19 08:57:41 (permalink)
Ok, I didn't think this thread had created much interest so I didn't update.  I've come a long way on this issue and now I'm down to recording tracks, testing them in the mix with other instruments.  I'm shocked how good they're sounding - at least, to me.  
 
All of the advice given thus far has been right on the money.  No single thing fixed this issue, save for maybe EQ having the most impact.  
 
1)  Room is mostly acoustically dead now, but could still use more dampening
2)  Drum tuning - mostly ok, but had a couple of toms that didn't want to cooperate
3)  Mic direction - had mic's tilted down toward the rim instead of pointed at the center, huge improvement with the tone of the tom/snare hit and resonance - at the expense of more shell in the sound, which is what I like in the first place.  Who knew?
4)  Mixer EQ - competing with mic placement as the biggest change in sound.  I simply had to cut the low mids to get rid of that boxy-boomy effect (600 to 900 range).  And I had to cut them a LOT (-15 dB).  This is usually a big red flag for me, having to set pots and faders to extreme settings, but in this case it has really worked out.  The drums sit in the mix in the right spot, to my ears, and I'm not missing that frequency range at all.  I added a little bottom to the snare and bumped the 6K-7K range a tad to get more sizzle out of the hi-hats.  
 
The other thing I did was similar to what Jim Roseberry was just writing about - listened to the overhead mix by itself. This caused me to drop them down a couple inches and push the faders a tad bit more to add more of it to the whole mix.  But I really think I'm getting a lot more from the close mics and I like the sound better.  
 
Now I'm just trying to talk myself into adding more "snares" in the snare sound.  I really like tight snares without a lot of "snares" in the sound, but I may be a minority on that preference and I don't want to ruin songs with my weirdo preferences...
 
Thanks to all for all the help.  
 
 
post edited by Voda La Void - 2016/04/19 09:20:31

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batsbrew
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Re: Acoustic Drum Tom Sound Problem... 2016/04/19 11:09:53 (permalink)
micing drums well,
 i think is the pinnacle of mixing.
 
it takes a lot of time,
a lot of finesse,
and whenever you heard a killer capture on an album,
it was not an accident.

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