Acoustic/Electric MIDI guitar??

My favourite topic! I've been playing MIDI guitars for about 20 years and have 6 that are either built as or adapted to MIDI.

First, what do you really want it for?

If you want a MIDI to drive a synth then an old Casio PG or MG series will keep you amused for hours. They have the advantage of a standard MIDI out and can be plugged into anything with a MIDI in. I love these and have two. They are great "guitars" and the MIDI bit makes them a really useful tool.

Coming up to the 21st century, Guitar to MIDI means something like a Roland GK hex pickup into a Roland / Axon unit. Here again you have options, and this is a real mine field. There are units that convert your guitar signal into a MIDI signal so you can plug into your favourite synth, and there are others units that are the synth with foot controls for guitarists to control the sounds.

MIDI has a two problems, latency and false triggers. Both are cause by the fact that the guitar doesn't produce a MIDI signal, and whatever you use, has to translate the magnetic pickup into something your synth can understand. Latency is the time it takes to translate, false triggers are because guitarists are messy creatures with sloppy techniques and the synth can’t distinguish between what you want to sound and what you don’t want to sound.

You talked about Acoustic sounds and this brings another level of complexity which hopefully I'll be able to cover for you. There are guitars with piezo's that have MIDI out and acoustic sounds but these can cost a packet. To me they are a non-starter because they give a reasonable acoustic "sound" but don't sound like an acoustic guitar.

Advice time.

Get a Roland GK pickup.
Decide if you want to do.

If you want to drive your synth get a guitar to midi converter, if you don’t have a synth / would rather use something made for guitars buy guitar synth unit.

If you want to explore the potential of your guitar sounds buy a Roland VG unit. These are primarily guitar modelling units which will cover just about any guitar, amp and stop box you can imagine, as well as a few bass and synth sounds for good measure. The good news is that there is none of the latency and false trigger issues. You’ll get your acoustic sounds and things like alternative tunings on top

If you want a bit of both, get a Variax and fit a GK pick up. The Variax does acoustic better than any Piezo, and has lots of other guitar models build in. Then get your guitar synth. I only know Roland’s and have a GR 30. It does a good job and I’m in no rush to replace it. If I was starting again I’d get a GR 33. For my money this is the best priced set up you’ll get and I used it for years.

Today I play a Strat, a Variax or an Acoustic with a GK pickup into a Roland 4 way splitter. That sends my individual string signals into a VG 99, a VG 8ex and a GR 30. I can then use different string combinations into each of the units to build sounds. I can also send the guitar signal into my guitar rig. Typically I’ll play one or two guitar set ups through the VG 99, add a slow strings sound to the E and A strings via the GR 30 synth, allowing me to build a background sound by plucking and sustaining these whilst strumming the other 4 strings.

What are you planning to do? How much do you want to spend? What I do sound complex but it isn’t, once you get your head around it :)

Griff, thank you so much for providing such a detailed explanation with what is possible considering the world of MIDI and guitars.

Crg, thanks for introducing me to the Godin line of guitars and I'll be looking into these as well.

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Griff, the main reason why I would like to buy a MIDI guitar is that I'm just really getting fed up with hardware. I absolutely love MIDI and everything that it is capable of. And since I like to consider myself as primarily being an electronic musician, adding a MIDI guitar to my already growing collection seems the next best move.

Oh and what I meant by my distaste in hardware is that in the old-school way of thinking, you pretty much buy an electric or acoustic guitar and whatever sound that guitar is capable of is all you get. I'm thinking forward with all this and would much rather have a MIDI guitar that allows me to plug into a guitar sampling software and then either make my guitar play like any other guitar I want or even just create a custom guitar sound to fit my needs whenever necessary. Know what I mean?

And since you've been doing this for 20+ years I'm really glad that you took the time to respond to my original post. In regards to price range, that all depends. I'll have to get in contact with all of the companies that interest me and see which one is the most bang for my buck. Godin seems pretty cool but I still have to read up on them before making any haste decisions.

1) By the way, would you mind providing reputable links to all of the equipment and resources you mentioned in your post above? That would be great bro.

I'm thinking that I'll more than likely get what I want if I were to spend between $0-$2,000. But keep in mind I really have no idea of what a quality MIDI guitar usually sells for. We can talk about this as well since I'm very interested in this type of technology. Alrighty then bro, take it easy and I look forward to your reply.

**By the way, is there even such a thing as a guitar that I can just plug into my computer via usb and then use a sampling station like Guitar Rig 3 to trigger the sounds? All in all, I'm just wondering if there's a way to bypass all this interface business and go straight to the heart of it and use my DAW instead?

All so very true Fastelder. I've been playing with a GI-20-GK-3 Roland setup running into the computer via USB into Sonar 7 PE and using the Z3TA+synth. It took some serious noodling to get it to work what with all the setup parameters between the interface, the computer, Sonar, and the Synth. But you are so right, you can't go beyond the limits of the synths presets or configured sounds capabilities.
As to changing your playing style, I've found that you have to stop your played notes at a point that the preset or synth configuration you are using will accept-be able to interpret according to Midi, before you can intiate another series of notes. The duration of the synth preset-sound you are using also has dominance over notes triggered after an initial triggering of notes in many cases.
As to the bend function, I've found that matching the settings on the synth and interface will produce a realistic bend. For instance, in Z3TA+, the global button in the oscillator shows you the bend range in both up and down parameters. It's max and minimum are +12 and -12. By default it is set to +2 and -2. If you set your interface bend range to 12 and the synths bend ranges to +12 and -12 it will work for both glide and bend.
I noticed a much better stability and response when I dumped the interface data into the Sysx veiw, copied it and paisted it into the Cakewalk ini. file and edited each F0 to F7 message into single lines as the rest of the configuration presets there are structured.
It still ain't perfect, player-driver error being predominant, but with a little extra string muting and finessing you can get it to perform in ways a keyboard won't.

Ok now weâ?Tre getting somewhere. From the description of your use, Iâ?Tm not sure you are looking at a â?oMIDIâ? set up; I think you are looking for a â?omodellingâ? set up. Whatâ?Ts the difference?

MIDI takes your guitar signal and tries to turn it into something a synth can understand so your guitar sound becomes something completely different, say a trombone.

Modelling takes the sound of your guitar, runs it through a very clever tone control (massive piece of understatement but I donâ?Tt pretend to understand the technology) and makes it sound like a different guitar. On top of changing the guitar sound, modelling systems can also often model amp and effects.

Behringer has the I-axe, a Strat copy with a USB. Itâ?Ts a very slick and simple, not to mention cheap (£98 UK) solution which plugs directly into your PC and the interfaces with the software. From what Iâ?Tve seen, itâ?Ts Guitar Rig compatible. It may well be what you are looking for. I donâ?Tt believe itâ?Ts the greatest guitar ever made but at the price, if it does the job, who cares?

Guitar Rig is the main software solutions. Iâ?Tve never used it, so my comments here are based on reading, youtube and other userâ?Ts comments. The Guitar rig has an input unit that any guitar can be plugged into without fancy pickups. The software on your computer then does all the really clever stuff and amazing sounds come out. Iâ?Tm not sure if that includes guitar modelling or if itâ?Ts just amp and effect modelling but the sounds are awesome. Many people also use it live and are happy to take a laptop on stage, Iâ?Tm not keen on putting my laptop in that environment.

From your comments I think that you should investigate this route.

As for hardware modelling solutions, Roland VG 8, VG 88 and VG 99 are king. The VG 8 and 88 are now old technology but still amazing. These systems use a separate pickup for each string. The advantage of this is that each string can be processed differently and this is where the clever stuff comes in. It is possible to â?oretuneâ? each string virtually. Itâ?Ts also possible to restructure the sound and model acoustic guitars, electric guitars, bass guitars and just about anything with frets and strings. Then there is the effects amp modelling. Very cool. The downside for recording is you have to get it right on the way in â?~cos you canâ?Tt use the hardware to change it later.

I use the Rolandâ?Ts because they are robust and flexible for live use. I also drive modellers and MIDI synth simultaneously and use different strings as different instruments. It means I can be the guitarist and the keyboard player at the same time. That is probably more than you want or need, although Iâ?Tm guessing you didnâ?Tt know it could be done. I have some examples on www.myspace.com/davidgrifftheriffgriffin of what this layering can sound like. Only one track has overdubs and you will know which by the drums, the rest are one with a Strat with a GK 3 pickup and in one take. Hope it helps

Griff

Hi Griff, above is the email I received from your post. Do you notice the different characters that have been inserted? I think your emails are corrupted. Please resend your response.

I looked at the Brian Moore guitars while considering a new guitar a couple of years ago. They look nice and have very impressive features. I ended up with a Godin LGX-SA which I really like. I would have seriously considered the Brian Moore guitars if there was a local dealer but I didn't find anyone that stocked them.

I can't really add anything to replies given above. I can only say my Godin is very versatile and that is only as a standard guitar with the GR-20 Roland unit. I am sure sending MIDI input to Sonar and playing with VSTs could open up even more possibilities.

Good luck.

Yeah, the LGX-SA is a synth access guitar, sorry for not making that clear. I use it in conjunction with a Roland GR-20 unit. What I haven't done with it is to use the MIDI out from the GR-20 and connect that to my PC's MIDI in (sound card) for laying down MIDI tracks or controlling soft synths. Well, not entirely true. I did lay an experimental MIDI track down over a year ago but never did any more with it. The other posters are right on the money concerning trigger errors and adapting your playing for using different instrument patches. It is a challenge for sure. I have also not explored guitar modeling (not sure if I can do that with what I have). It might require the use of a USB connected guitar like the Brian Moore guitars. Line 6's Variax guitars and modeling are something that has impressed me as very versatile. Hook a Roland GK pickup to one of those and you may have all you are wanting.

Glad you found the Variax site and it helped. If you get one, I'd be interested to hear your take on it once you are up and running.

If you want a bit of both, get a Variax and fit a GK pick up. The Variax does acoustic better than any Piezo, and has lots of other guitar models build in. Then get your guitar synth. I only know Roland’s and have a GR 30. It does a good job and I’m in no rush to replace it. If I was starting again I’d get a GR 33. For my money this is the best priced set up you’ll get and I used it for years.

good idea by Griff from above

The_kiss,

I've tried to write a reply to the D Beam / Ribbon Controller question three or four times now and gave up each time so here goes again. First things first, IMHO, the VG 99 is the greatest single guitar processor on the planet. It is totally awsome. I'm not kidding when i say that if i gig with it and there is a guitarist in the audience I don't leave the stage during the break. I spend the break explaining how it works and what it does. I'm gigging on Friday night and i know that there will be at least 3 people coming to hear the VG and not my band But i thought you wanted a software solution lol

The D Beam, Ribbon Strip and Expression Pedal can control any 2 functions of virtual instrument, amp or effect, and in opposite directions if needed. That means you can pick a knob on your virtual synth and wiggle it with the D beam, or turn it into a virtual wammy bar. the D beam also has a freeze function, which means you can freeze a chord played on virtual instrument 1 by passing your hand or the head of the guitar through it, then solo over it with virtual instrument 2. The Ribbon Strip can then be set up as your wammy bar to slide notes. On that point, a guitar is a 2 handed instrument so i haven't quite mastered that yet

Does that help answer your question?

The VG 99 also has a guitar to midi converter built in so, although it isn't a guitar synth, you can drive a synth with it, any synth. Want one?

If you can't track one down, and they are hard to find, we could try hooking up over MSN messenger. I'm sure I could demo it over the web with a web cam.

Griff.

ORIGINAL: Griff The Riff

Dantarbill,

I've had some good results recording MIDI into Cubase (can I say that here?). It means playing very, very cleanley, not thinking like a guitarist, very clever with your quantise. Best advice, keep it simple and build up the sound with lots of tracks, don't try to do it all in one go.

Griff

The reason I'd want to use a MIDI guitar for recording, is to capture a spontaneous performance with my playing style, phrasing and nuance intact. That doesn't fit real well with things like "very very cleanly" and "keep it simple". If I've gotta keep it simple, I might as well use them there black 'n white doohickeys. Then I don't have to do boatloads of cleanup afterwards (just truckloads of quantization instead).

One thing that most people who try a MIDI guitar don't get is that a guitar is the only instrument that can be played like a guitar. Any other voice doesn't sound right if played as a guitar. Piano's don't get strummed, the Sax can't play a chord and about they only instrument that can bend a note like a guitar is a trombone. If you want to get a guitar sound, use modelling, otherwise, and it's been said in guitar related posts, think like the instrument you are trying to emulate.

Spot on. I've had a couple of mates pick up mine select a sax patch and proceed to strum away and then look at me perplexed when it sounds diabolical.

Mr. Griff, thank you so much for answering my question about the D Beam and Ribbon on the VG-99. I'd love to see your setup in action via webcam and I'll be sending you a pm very shortly with my email information.

By the way, I spoke with Pat over at Brian Moore iGuitar yesterday afternoon and found out some really cool stuff about the iGuitar. First things first, they are currently only shipping one model of their iGuitar line. It's called the iGuitar 9.13 and it looks like this:



Pat basically told me that although Variax and Godin are great guitars, they just don't have the potential for experimentation like the iGuitar does. For example, the iGuitar comes with a usb connection, 1/4 connection, and a 13-pin connection for synth work. Neither the Variax or Godin brands come with all three of these features. They're either missing one or two of these components.

Secondly, if I were to purchase an iGuitar for use with a VG-99, I wouldn't have to buy the GK-3 pickup because the iGuitar already has the exact same technology built into its guitar! This is an instant savings of $185 when you think about it. I can also have them do a custom paint job on any of their iGuitars if I don't like the stock color. For example, I could send in a picture with an image of a really cool blue and they would match it exactly. This costs $300 and I don't know how that compares with other custom options from other companies but the price seemed pretty reasonable.

The only downside is that some Asian company stole iGuitar's technology and now Brian Moore iGuitar is in a brand new design mode and they'll be changing their name from Brian Moore iGuitar to iGuitar inc. Now the question remains, does anyone happen to know what Asian company did this? I'm really curious to know.

You also get a factory discount when you purchase directly from the iGuitar headquarters. A guitar that is normally $2,000 gets dropped down to $1,495! But again, this is still too rich for my blood at the moment and I'll be waiting for their new line of guitars to come out before I purchase anything from them.

And feel free to contact them yourselves. I wasn't able to get ahold of anyone from Godin and this really sucks. The iGuitar staff spend a lot of personal attention and time explaining things to me and I really enjoyed my customer service experience with them. Like I said, I talk to a guy named Pat and he was very patient and informative.

I'm currently thinking about purchasing one of these guitars:

1) Paul Reed Smith SE Custom Electric Guitar



Price: $599.00

More info: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Paul-Reed-Smith-SE-Custom-Electric-Guitar-519370-i1150570.gc


2) Dean EVO Noir Electric Guitar



**This same exact guitar was used by Trent Reznor from Nine Inch Nails on the "With Teeth" tour. After every show he would break one of these guitars. Then the entire band would autograph them and in a few days they would put them up for sale on eBay to help aid the Katrina victims.

Price: $299.00

More info: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Dean-EVO-Noir-Guitar-519844-i1150757.gc


3) Ibanez ARX320 Electric Guitar



Price: $399.99

More info: http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ibanez-ARX320-Electric-Guitar?sku=518062&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=148404565

I'll be using Waves Guitar 3.0 with whichever guitar I purchase and will look into guitar modelling as well. I'm also open to any other electric guitar brands so feel free to share your recommendations. Some of the guitars I listed above don't have a whammy bar or neck inlays. I'm wondering if this will set me back in any way?

Oh and by the way, check out this great video on Waves Guitar 3.0 with Paul Reed Smith himself!

http://www.waves.com/Objects/waves_videos/584/gtr_vdos/gtr3/TheMakingOfGTR3PopUp.html

ORIGINAL: washburn100

Great Thread,
I have been looking at both the Godin and Brian Moore specifically because I want the most versatile instrument for recording. I want great electric, love the idea of natural acoustic sounds from the same guitar, the ability to blend both and the 3rd option of Midi control of soft syths by using the guitar.

I was hoping someone could just say one is better than the other, but thats asking a lot. If anyone knows, it seems the USB connection on the Brian Moore is much more geared to mac use and garageband/logic stuff.

I use PC and of course use Sonar 6 right now. Anyone more enlightened on the subject?
Thanks

I'm not sure there's an "either/or" argument going between your two choices. I'd buy them both (given sufficient funds and bugetary authorization). In the Godin case, I'd go for one of their solid body "classical" models (in order to get some of the Gibson "Chet Atkins" vibe). The Brian Moore looks like you could concievably leave all your other electrics home. Neither one of them covers the other's territory.

As for the USB connection...I would ignore it entirely. But that's just me.

Thanks for the feedback,

I was able to try some Godin's at Long & Mcquade last night, and they are a very nice guitar. I had also planned to get a Roland VG-99 for synth and midi control to be able to use the 13 pin connector. I have looked at the GI-20 which is just the Roland-midi interface. A lot cheaper, but I'm afraid I'd regret not getting any guitar synths.

As for the Brian Moore, I can't "kick the tires" as there is not a dealer near me. It is a good question about the USB controlling midi direct. I'll ask there support.

It's exciting to do the research, I've put away $2K to buy the toys, but I'm getting information overload.

One of my thoughts is to use a lot more hardware effects. Right now, I exclusively use VST effects and It gets pretty CPU intensive.

If I gave you guys the money, would you go pick something out for me?

Hi
I have a Godin XTSA - play it through a Roland GR33. I have had this set up about 4 years.
I record MIDI direct from the GR33 into Sonar (7 waiting for 8!)
When tracking I'll set the GR33 up to what is the nearest type of sound I am aiming for - but because I prefer other synths I invariably change this after I have the MIDI recorded. Just my way of doing things but works for me.
Also I haven't noticed anybody mention it, but you can adjust the GR33 quite a bit re sensitivity etc - to be fair I have not adjusted mine for some time as I am quite happy with how it works now, but I remember when I first got it, I would get an enormous amount of double / phantom notes. Once adjusted and also as I think I became more practiced at playing this type of set up, things have improved immensely.

I have recently just purchased a Variax from Sweetwater - using it for some live stuff and some recording. Been very happy so far and I am very pleased I got one (and at a very good price!).
Regards
Nigel