Advice On Best Plug-In "Suite" To Complement Sonar X3 Producer

Hi All
 
I wonder if you guys could help me with this one (especially those using Sonar commercially)
 
I want to write and produce "Top 40, Pop" music demos - ie commercial type songs to pitch for artists
 
I have also been approached to record and "produce" radio ready demos for other people
 
I already have publisher interest so I want to take my demos to the next level so I have around £200 (GBP) to improve my set-up and I fancy getting a 3rd party plug-in suite to compliment what I already have in the excellent Sonar X3 Producer arsenal (I also have the plugins from 8.5 and X2 producer editions)
 
I have Komplete 8 (not ultimate) that has given me new toys but I am looking for something to take me to the next level (I completely understand it is more about learning how to use the tools and I have a pretty good understanding of everything I already have)
 
So....
 
I have identified the following as possible contenders in my price range:
 
Waves Gold Bundle 
 
Ozone 5 - I could stretch to the Ozone and Alloy bundle for around £260 if it is considered a "must have"
 
T Racks Deluxe Bundle
 
Does anyone have any experience of these and/or any other recommendations to compliment Sonar X3 Producer's stock plugins
 
I do everything "in the box" so I want to get the best I can from the outset so I can invest some serious time using a set of professional tools that will hopefully last me a long time

Much depends on what you mean by "taking it to the next level." It sounds like you mean mastering.
 
Between Komplete and Sonar, you have pretty much everything you need except for high-quality multiband level maximizing and diagnostic tools. IMHO no one does multiband level maximizing better than Waves. The best diagnostics will be from a dedicated digital audio editor like Wavelab. 
 
What Ozone will give you is a suite of mastering tools in an efficient, integrated package. IOW you don't have to cobble together a collection of diverse plug-ins to do what you want, they're all in one place. Their Exciter (controlled distortion) module is very useful and I sometimes find it more appropriate than standard EQ to change tonal colors. Their level maximizer is also excellent, maybe not quite up to the Waves plug-ins, but very close. All the other modules, including EQ, have multiple options and are excellent.
 
However this brings up a crucial point, which is that mastering using these tools is a very deep process that is all about subtlety and really knowing how to use the functions to their optimum potential. All these products have presets but you will find them useless because mastering parameters have to be tailored soooo carefully to the particulars of a given project. Your best strategy might be to use a professional mastering engineer if you want to take your sound quality to the next level while you learn the tools and techniques used for mastering. You could probably be making good use of them in about a year although like music, mastering is something you can never learn 100%.

I hoped I had closed off the "learn to use what you've got" comments in my original post

Whilst I completelty respect this view I wanted to see if there was anything in these plugins (or others) that I am missing - Craig's reply has been very useful in this regard

If we all stuck to the "stick with what you've got" we would all still be using our hardware 4 track tape machines ;-)

I wondered if there was anything in these plugins that would help me be more efficient and effective

+1 to Groove 3 - I have spent a year going through their vids

I just fancied playing with something new to see if I can improve my mixes

I will investigate all options thoroughly but thought I would ask fellow Sonar users for their experiences/recommendations

I don't disagree - but you also need to have something before you can learn what to do with it

I am interested to hear what people are using and getting good results with

FabFilter is a name that has been cropping up as well - why did you go for FabFilter stuff over and above the stock Sonar stuff?

I also agree you need to find the right mix of plugins for what you want to achieve - and I am looking for advice and guidance for choosing these - in a few years I hope to narrow these down to some key ones that I know inside out - however to get there I need to "kiss a few frogs" before I find my Prince I guess!

@ALEX - and then I can reply to posts like mine saying it is better to uninstall plugins ;-)

Ah hah, that's another important point.

I don't use FabFilter over and above the stock Sonar plugs. Of the FabFilter stuff, I love the gate, compressor, limiter and eq because of the controls they have, but I use them as required not by default.

To be honest I always go for the built in pro channel stuff first, because it's right there. If I don't get what I want, then I look to FabFilter. Especially the FabFilter eq because it can work in m/s natively.

But I'm still not clear why you want these plug-ins, or where you feel your existing setup is deficient. It's much easier to make recommendations if you can specify your needs.
QuoteReply

I suppose I am asking the question from the other point of view...

I am in a fortunate position where I can buy some plugins at the moment and Waves, Ozone etc. are names that keep cropping up in videos I am watching

I am just starting to research what is "out there" and wondered what other people are using

If everyone says - "xyz is a must have and I use it on all my projects because..." I can check it out

Alternatively, if the feeling is Sonar has everything and nothing else is worth looking at then that is great

There are no specific needs I have identified yet - but then again I didn't know I needed things like "speed comping" or the "Pro Channel" before I looked at X3 - so I wondered what others felt they needed above and beyond what X3 producer offers

If you don't know what you're missing, you don't need anything else.  However, get something like your Waves or Ozone, you suggested, and learn whether you spent your money wisely or not.  Might as well invest in some learning experience down that path.
 
And...I think indirectly, the point is you don't need anything, because it's like saying getting another guitar will help my playing....when you already have 10 guitars.

Honestly, I'd look at stuff that is in front of your computer...like mics, pres, better sound sources and techniques.  That is much more suited it sounds like, to "go to the next level" in my opinion.  Then think about better monitors, acoustic surroundings...  you get the picture.  Your software probably already exceeds what you've got in these areas.
I say that, because I listen to people's recordings and they have a huge list of software, etc...  and their recordings still sound amateurish in many regards.  It's clean because of the format, but they haven't mastered so many other areas involved with "getting to the next level".
 
But shopping is always fun for audio stuff!!

If you own Producer I don't think a "Suite" is the way to go because it already has so much. I'd upgrade the things you like (I'd personally recommend the TH2 upgrade but I'm a guitar hound) that are included then focus on getting a mastering suite to compliment X3. I've been wanting to get an Ozone package and/or Wavelab. Sonar is supposed to be able to "master" stuff and it can to an extent but those are the real deal. Honestly if Sonar could do what those programs could it would (and should) cost significantly more.
 
Otherwise by some outboard stuff. Mics are super important and cost a buttload so dropping money in that kind of stuff and then learning the tools you already have inside and out is likely a better plan.
 
Sorry if that has already been mentioned. Didn't read the thread. Cheers.

I find the Sonitus suite (that is included with Sonar) is really the best start for learning all you need to about specific types of effects. They don't look pretty but they mostly have all the controls you will encounter on pretty much any commonly used plugin out there. If you can learn to use them then all the other fancier looking plugins (and the Prochannel stuff) will be a piece of cake. Also the Sonitus stuff works extremely well on their own. I mostly use the Prochannel stuff but fallback on the Sonitus plugs. The new BlueTubes stuff has some cool emus so I've been playing with those as well but they would be confusing if I hadn't learned the basics.
 
I highly recommend buying and watching Karl Rose's X2 Advanced FX series (or whatever it's called). I picked it up for something ridiculous like $5 at one point and it is really great for understanding how to use the included effects (even though we have a bunch of new ones so I hope he updates the series). Also I'd say a month pass at Groove3 would be a good investment then checking out the effects vids to get more general info on how specific things work.
 
Then you will have a much better understanding of what is what and why it does what it does. Could save you a fortune. It certainly has made me realize I don't need to drop any more coin on simple plugins.
 
That said the Concrete Limiter and CA2A are brilliant addons for Sonar and they go on sale from time to time. Definitely worth snagging if you don't already have them. 
 
Cheers.

Sonar covers the basics pretty well between Sonitus and Nomad Factory. I would look to add Soundtoys as a more creative suite. 

Boydie
Most people start off by saying things like "learn to use the tools you have" - but of course there is a step before this to choose what to learn! (chicken and egg!!!)

I'm old school, in professional studios back in the day (and now) if you need to do something you just didn't run out and buy more stuff to do it, you bought something because it filled in a massive hole, or used something that worked until it wore out, or replaced it with something proven to be much better. So of course I think of it the other way around, if you learn all the tools inside out then you are going to know what are the issues are with it, what you are missing, or what could be improved, leading to a better purchase decision. With Komplete and Sonar you probably have almost everything you need. Your own opinion on what you want is the most important and that takes experience.
 
If you do it the other way (don't learn the tools, just buy loads of plugins) you just end up with a shed loads of plugins that do similar things. You probably think you know what you want (something shiny perhaps), but don't really. I speak from experience at my end, I got trapped in this thinking (clever marketing is hard to resist) but soon wriggled out of it. That may appeal to people who spend most of their time grabbing the quick pre-sets that included within multiple plugins so I guess from that angle it is valid but can be extremely expensive.
 
Cheers...

This may be an open door but if you're producing vocals I'd get the Melodyne upgrade to Editor before anything else. Celemony has been kind enough to offer it for half off to Sonar users upon request, putting it at 150 instead of 300.

Other than that, I would have to agree with many here and get specific upgrades based on what you feel is missing, rather than a suite. If you need "DIY mastering tools", Ozone is a prime candidate. For some specific utility plugins or character plugins, some of the Waves offerings could be good. As Craig says their multiband limiting is good too. I love my Fabfilters but they also duplicate a lot of functionality you already have, not to mention their prices per plug are about what you want to spend in total. There are also many single plugs I like from various manufacturers. E.g. Cytomic The Glue, ValhallaDSP's Valhalla Room and Valhalla Vintage Verb, Stillwell's The Rocket, etc.

All in all, I would say it is not unreasonable to ask for more information. If you wanted a specific vocoder, leslie, reverb, guitarsim, compressor, whatever, you'd get a lot more educated opinions weighing in.

Lots of good advice in this thread...Alex, I know exactly what you mean about using what you have until one day, you find a limitation that needs to be addressed.

Thank you all sooooooo much for your considered responses and excellent advice
 
I jumped on the Melodyne upgrade straight away
 
This thread has really prompted me to try and identify any "missing" elements so I have put my money where my mouth is and posted 2 mixes:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Some-Mixes-To-Help-Identify-Production-Mixing-Mastering-Improvements-m3103353.aspx#3103353 
 
If anyone gets a chance I would really appreciate any feedback on whether you think different plugins (especially mastering) would improve the productions and help "take them to the next level"

I think I have the Waves Gold bundle - if that's the one I have then it has a ton of excellent plugs that I use all the time. The EQ's and compressors you get with it are excellent - VEQ is a really sweet EQ for making boosts and sounds stunning on vocals. Then you get the Renaissance EQ and compressor, both of which are superb and well used by pros (I see Dave Pensado use them all the time). There's also some fantastic vintage compressors and the wonderful H-Delay, my go to for delay almost every time. Then there's their amazing stereo widening and other spacial tools, Maxx Bass, a bunch of great modulation tools, a couple of excellent reverbs, some great guitar amps and stomp pedals, and a whole host of analytical tools. Plus loads more I haven't mentioned.

It cost me $300 at the time and when you look at the full price of these plugs it was a no brainer. I did have buyer's remorse for a couple of weeks, thinking I had succumbed to a bad case of GAS, but in hindsight I reach for these plugins every day because they are such top notch.

Then again, I could probably say the same for Melodyne Editor...