dank
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Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
Hello, all. I am still using X1Producer's Edition, as I don't record that often. I was laying down down tracks with my band today, and the only questionable tracks were the vocal tracks. I did my best to keep them from clipping, and once I did, I found that the levels for the vocal tracks were very low on playback.
I have a fairly new PC running Windows 7 Professional. My sound source is a Presonus Firestudio Project. I am running the mics through the Presonus using the phantom power.
So, I have to deal with the gain on the preamps, the gain on each channel in Sonar and the volume slider in Sonar. I am also using the Warm Vocal preset for Compression offered in Sonar.
Can I get some tips on proper gain structure so that the vocals are as robust as possible?
Thank you.
Dan
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AT
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/07 23:53:37
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What do you mean "keep them from clipping"? What mic are you using?
W/ Presonus preamps (like many lower gain preamps) one can have a hard time finding a sweet spot w/ certain mikes. But basically it is learning to use your tools.
However, it shouldn't be that hard to get a vocal sound -12 dB or even lower. The great thing about digital is the noise floor is so low you can raise the recorded level. If you are down in the lower -20 db peaking range you should be able to raise the average level w/o peaking. THis goes for vocals and all tracks.
The gain in SONAR should be all 0's on faders and such, exept for your already recorded material which should be leveled or rough mixed. The correct gain is acheived by the preamp in the Presonus (see above pp).
Using a soft comp etc. won't really do anything to your recorded sound going in - it only effects the recorded sound. It is mostly used to flatten and fatten the track and is a whole 'nother topic. Play around w/ it during mixing, but don't feel obliged to use it. W/ soft comps/eq, it is easy to overdue. They are there, why not use them? Because you might not need them. Experiment, but don't commit until you get a better grasp of what you want to do.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 03:52:30
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If you've got your vocal tracks peaking at anywhere from about -12dB upwards and you find them "too low" it means everything else is "too loud".
Bring everything else down to compensate.
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John
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 07:08:40
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It should be stated that talking about dB levels should be put in the context of what bit depth is used. I think its important to note these levels are normal for 24 bit recordings. If the OP is recording at 16 bits that would change the suggested dB level.
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Beagle
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 07:43:48
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the sliders on each of the channels in sonar do not affect the recording gain. they only affect playback.
you should set the sliders to 0dB as AT says and just adjust the gains on the hardware inputs to make your recordings where they are set to an appropriate level. as John suggests, 24bit vs 16 bit would be different suggested levels, but both should be under 0dB.
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dank
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 11:02:12
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Thanks for all of the information, guys. If I understand correctly, the individual channel volume sliders to not affect the recording levels; what about the Gain knob? I though the Gain feature was similar to the Trim knob on an analog mixing board.
Further, are you saying that I should only use the compression in the Pro Channel after the track has been recorded?
I am recording with a Blue Bottle and a Cad E300.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 11:10:26
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Nope. Your gain going into Sonar can only be altered by your pre-amp or interface before it hits the AD converters
After that, if your signal is clipped, then it's clipped and nothing can be done other than re-record at a lower level.
You can monitor what you're recording by enabling Input Echo on the track, but no Fx wil be "printed" until you freeze or bounce the track (and even then there's good reasons not to do this)
Are you recording at 24 bit? I hope so. If you're only recording at 16 bit then you have less headroom to play with and will need careful gain structuring to achieve a decent S/N ratio.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 11:12:54
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dank
Further, are you saying that I should only use the compression in the Pro Channel after the track has been recorded?
I am recording with a Blue Bottle and a Cad E300.
Yes, because it's the only way. You can not compress the input signal without an external compressor (or one integrated in your soundcard).
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dank
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 11:15:37
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I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but are you saying that nothing in Sonar alters the volume of the track? The only gain stage is the Presonus' preamp?
I will check to see if I am recording at 24 bit.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 11:19:12
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Nothing alters the recording level going into Sonar apart from whatever is in your chain before it hits the AD.
I'll say that again:
NOTHING alters the recording level going into Sonar apart from whatever is in your chain before it hits the AD.
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John
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 11:23:46
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dank
Thanks for all of the information, guys. If I understand correctly, the individual channel volume sliders to not affect the recording levels; what about the Gain knob? I though the Gain feature was similar to the Trim knob on an analog mixing board.
Further, are you saying that I should only use the compression in the Pro Channel after the track has been recorded?
I am recording with a Blue Bottle and a Cad E300.
Bristol explained things very well. I just want to touch on something that is not often discussed. When you record be sure that all the controls in Sonar are set to unity or what is sometimes called zeroed. What this means is that there is no amplifcation or attenuation being applied. It is important to keep in mind that this is the only way to get accurate levels. After that leave them alone while recording. That way you will be getting readouts of the true levels you are recording. Do not adjust gain or level at all from within Sonar while you are recording. On playback you can control all the levels to your hearts desire. What the level meters show is what you have in the recording and what is going through Sonar. And it is controllable at this point.
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dank
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 11:28:08
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Gentleman, thank you very much for your input and advice.
But riddle me this, Batman (Sorry, Bristol that's a Stateside joke), when playing back and adjusting levels, why would I use the Gain at all, as opposed to the volume sliders?
Dell XPS 8300: Intel i7-2600 CPU at 3.40Ghz; 12GB of RAM, Windows 7 Professional, 64-bit operating system; two 1TB hard drives installed. Presonus Firestudio Project. Sonar X1 Producer.
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John
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 11:35:17
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dank
Gentleman, thank you very much for your input and advice.
But riddle me this, Batman (Sorry, Bristol that's a Stateside joke), when playing back and adjusting levels, why would I use the Gain at all, as opposed to the volume sliders?
Sometimes you need to control the volume going into a plugin and the gain control can handle that. Its in the pre FX position in the signal route including ProChannel.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 11:44:23
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Thanks for all of the information, guys. If I understand correctly, the individual channel volume sliders to not affect the recording levels; what about the Gain knob? I though the Gain feature was similar to the Trim knob on an analog mixing board. Further, are you saying that I should only use the compression in the Pro Channel after the track has been recorded?
Monitoring thru compression/EQ/etc won't affect the original recording. It's recorded completely unprocessed... When recording, you want to ensure that input levels don't clip... and that everyone (recording) can hear a monitor mix that enables them to effectively perform their part. I'd have everyone play what they consider their loudest dynamic level... and then leave a few dB of headroom above that. In the heat of the moment, a performer will often play with more energy (often louder) than a "level check".
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AT
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/08 12:11:04
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Jim makes a good point, and something that experience teaches all engineers (even if you are only the bass player roped into engineer). Most performers will find "11" on the amp or their pipes during recording (esp. their best take). With digital recording, and, as John sez, esp. at 24 bit, you should have plenty of headroom available. Use it. It is easy to add some gain to a lower vol sound. You can never undistort a digital over.
If the recording is "low" you can use the fader to up the volume, the gain, then a comp/limiter or EQ. Also as pointed out above, your other tracks might be too loud because they are louder instruments. A kick will sound louder (and contain more energy) than the high hats. That is why in my first post I said level your mix when doing overdubs. Usually, I will drop faders on already recorded sounds to -6 dB unless there is a reason not too. Record several tracks around -6 dB and combine them in your output and the song will can be pushing 0 dB in the master bus. A softer vocal can't compete against such a loud background. Level, premix or rough mix - whatever you want to call it will help you, the engineer, get a better take or overdub - or a sub mix to your main monitors.
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http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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tunekicker
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/09 01:03:13
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If your latency is low enough you can listen to the vocal track going through plugins like compression while recording if that helps you get the feel and vibe you need for a better performance. As others have noted, it is important not to let this color your perception of loudness on the engineering side, and none of these things actually affects what's recorded as an audio file to your hard disk. That comes later when you mix.  One thing you may want to keep in mind while recording vocals- there are essentially 3 main "flavors" of vocal mic technique depending on what you want to record. - Live sound- sing as close to the mic as possible so that when you sing the sound of your voice is significantly louder than other instruments that bleed into the mic.
- "Modern" vocal recording- sing as close to the mic as possible without overloading p's and b's, using a pop filter to help, and adjusting the height of the mic to find the position that has the least sibilant s's. This technique is used when the boomy proximity effect is desired (i.e. you want to sound more like a radio announcer or rock singer)
- "Classic" vocal recording- sing while about a foot back from the microphone. Use a pop screen just in case. This technique tends to yield more natural sounding results. P's, b's, and s's will sound more natural and require less work. Since this technique doesn't use the proximity affect your levels won't vary quite as much, so you can turn up your preamp a little louder. If you haven't already I would recommend trying this just to see what you think. (This technique doesn't work well if there is bleed from the band, if your mic or preamp are noisy, if the room is too wet for the style of vocal you are trying to record, or if you want proximity affect.)
Peace, Tunes
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konradh
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/10 10:26:11
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Hey, Dank, just so you have complete information, you should know that it is possible to get break-up (distortion) at the mic before the signal even reaches the preamp. If you use a condenser mic with a pad (a switch that says something like 0, -5, -10) you may need to experiment with that. Obviously, 0 gives you the strongest signal but with some singers you need to attentuate (pad) the mic. For example, with my Rode NT-2A (a common good but not expensive condenser), I use -5 when I sing but -10 with a female vocalist I record often. Even if you don't get serious distortion, the sound can be hard or brassy if the mic is pushed too hard. You also need to match the impedance of the mic and the preamp, if you have that option. For example, I have a Eureka rack-mount channel strip/pre I use sometimes and it has an impedance selector switch. I looked up my mics online (since I couldn't find the manuals!) and noted the impedance of each so I could get the best match. Finally, you need to make sure the phantom power on your pre is ON for mics that require +48 and off for those that do not. (Some pres only offer +24 which is odd.) My apologies for taking your time if you know all this already, but I had to learn a few things the hard way and hope to spare others when I can. Final note: I find it very frustrating that there is no input level control in Sonar. In older "traditional" studios with tape machines and analog mixing desks, I was used to riding the fader somewhat during recording. I miss having that option, although I don't want to sacrifice the obvious advantages of DAWs.
post edited by konradh - 2012/10/10 10:36:48
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/10 11:54:06
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Another thought sparked off by konradh's post, if you are using a condenser mic, make sure your singer is a few inches away from the mic and with a pop screen between the 2.
Don't let him/her eat the mic.
You'll need a pop screen irrespective of type of microphone.
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Starbuckle
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Re:Advice, Please Re: Recording Vocals - Gain Levels.
2012/10/10 20:42:25
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Are you recording live, loud instruments in relatively close proximity to condenser mics that you're using for vocals at the same time?
Duke
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