gswitz
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Advice on how to record a band live...
I've been asked to record a band on Saturday. They have 5 vocal mics -- needs to be sent from me to the mains 2 guitars -- do not go to the mains because they will be amped 1 bass -- does not go to the mains because it will be amped 1 bongo player to mic -- needs to be sent from me to the mains and a drum kit -- does not go to the mains -- straight acoustic. I have an RME UCX, an M-Audio Fast Track Ultra that I can use for SPIDF to the RME, and a Tascam 2488 hard disc recorder which I can use the midi out from the UCX to synchronize. What I'm thinking... If I record only 10 tracks, I can leave the Tascam at home and use RME's digicheck recording software rather than running Sonar during the show. I much prefer using Digicheck when recording without needing a metronome or output from Sonar. The RME has EQ and compression for every channel and a reverb if I want it. The problem is that 10 tracks is a little tight to capture the drums well. I do have a set of drum microphones (3 for toms and snare and stuff and 1 for kick). I could ask the Bongo Player to use her Bongo Mic for vocals as well as her Bongos. I'm also tight on pre-amps as I go to high numbers of tracks. I was thinking of running the bass and acoustic electric guitars straight to the 2 1/4" inputs on the front of the RME and then sending them back out from the RME to their respective amplifiers. Preamps 2 phantom powered on the UCX 4 in the RME Quad Mic Pre outputs sent to the UCX 2 Art Tube PreAmps where I could send the output to the Fast Track and roll the channels left and right and send into the UCX using SPIDF 8 phantom powered on the Tascam 2488, but 4 are 1/4" inputs I was planning to record at 24 bit 44.1 because there are so many tracks I thought a higher sample rate would be unnecessary and might jeopardize disc writes (?). I don't really think writing at 88.2 would be a problem recording 10 tracks, but I don't normally do this from within Sonar. I guess, I think that mixing tracks recorded at 88.2 would be a tax on my system (after the fact). I might have an easier time mixing 44.1 tracks. Anyway, this is the idea. I don't normally do this, so I wanted to put my questions out there. 1. If I mic a drum kit with 1 or 2 microphones, where should I put them? Overhead and kick? Writing this, I feel like I'm talking myself into bringing the RME, the Fast Track and the Tascam.
post edited by gswitz - 2013/06/19 20:03:51
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/19 13:51:06
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For the outs from the RME 2 will go to the monitors 2 will go to the mains 1 will go to the bass amp 1 will go to the acoustic guitar amp 2 will go for my stereo headphones. I could have 2 more outs if I send back across the SPIDF to the Fast Track and then out of ports on the Fast Track, but that's a little extra complicated. I prefer to set up the fast track as slave and then not run the Fast Track interface software if I can help it. If I bring the Tascam, I will record the entire drum kit together with the Tascam using midi clock sync.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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ChuckC
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 07:37:30
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/06/20 19:37:12
Best guess on how to get it done (or a quick guide to consolidate your tracks as you have a limited number of inputs). Let the vocals go to the main board & take a feed (a send from the main board) of just the lead vocal - track 1 (this will probably be a 1/4" jack) Do a 2nd for all the back vocals - track #2 (then hope the guy on the board has them balanced) Use the art preamp for the 2 guitars (they are going to be generally panned left & right anyway, Track 3 Bass- run a DI or mic for track 4 Bongos- track 5 Kick - track 6 Snare- 7 Over heads - 8 & 9 Then you have a little wiggle room with one more line to use where you see fit. Maybe a room mic set out in the back of the room (bands always like to hear the applause in their recordings. Good luck with it bud!
ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's, lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's, DI's, Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t. http://www.everythingiam.net/ http://www.stormroomstudios.com Some of my productions: http://soundcloud.com/stormroomstudios
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 09:43:42
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I just got this note from the band... - We usually use a Bose L1 model 2 tower speaker and for a sound board we use 2 Bose T1 audio engines linked together - this is not an ideal set up for this size band, as usually 2 towers are recommended for this set up and we also only have 7 inputs......therefore, the guitars and bass are just amped, but not coming through the board(s) and we frequently have trouble hearing the vocals over the instruments. Chris (bass player) had put together a monitor system for us tat we tried out for he first time two weeks ago that worked okay, but not great, and I think he's still tweaking that.
- Each T1 has 4 inputs:
- On T1-A, we have 3 vocals and an input fromT1-B - this one has a digital line that runs into the Bose tower
- On T1-B, we have 2 vocals, bongos, and kick drum - this one has a line that runs into Channel 4 on the T1-A
- I am happy to try something else, but no one has else has offered to bring a PA, so this is what we have been using -a plus of the Bose is the clarity of the vocals through the Bose system, as long as we can hear them over the instruments
@Chuck, Thanks very much for your suggestions for how to mic everything. The thought to get a mic on the crowd was an excellent suggestion I had forgotten to consider!
post edited by gswitz - 2013/06/20 09:46:22
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 09:58:04
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So, right now, I'm thinking... All drumz except the Kick into the Tascam 2488. - 1 snare - 2 Toms mics - 2 Over heads A microphone on the crowd into the Tascam 2488. - 1 (at least mic pointed towards the crowd) Into the RME UCX - 5 vocal mics - 1 Bongos - 1 Kick - 1 Bass (preferably off the direct box our 1/4 out on the bass amp) Into the Fast Track and then to the RME via SPIDF - 2 Electric Guitars pre-amped with the Art Tube Pres Sends from the RME - 1 Send to the T1 Tone Match for amplifying for the crowd - 2 sends to monitors if you guys can bring them (I'm assuming the monitors are powered). - 3 My head phones for soloing etc...
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 10:43:07
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/06/20 19:37:21
Man... wow.... unless you have the hardware to do it right...... which it kinda sounds like you don't.... Especially since everything is not miked ... you can't rely on the board mix. In rooms, with bands and stuff miked and other stuff not, the board mix will be nowhere near an ideal balanced mix. Listening to some of my band's old "board tapes" proves that point. Mostly vocals and kick drum with some amp bleed. And theoretically, we had everything miked..... but the soundman had to balance stage to the PA....and as a result, the guitars and keys were often lacking in the board tapes. A better option, while not the fanciest, might be to simply mic what you can (vocals and such) and at the same time... set up a few "room mics" (condenser mics) close to the stage to get the band's sound coming from the stage. Keep it simple and you will probably get halfway decent results. Try to get fancy and technical without the proper gear and it will likely not be a great mix. Of course, this is my opinion and is subject to be wrong. I did a few demo's for bands back in the old reel to reel days, and used room mics, with good results. Separate mixer from the band, my own mics, and it turned out fairly well. All the best.... let us hear the results...I'm curious. Good luck and have fun.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Beepster
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 13:22:10
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/06/20 19:37:40
What kind of board does the venue have? If it has dedicated line outs on each channel then just snag those and set your trim levels on your own stuff. You would have to make sure the sound guy isn't allowing his board to clip. If it does not have dedicated line outs most boards will have aux sends. If they are not being used for stage monitors you could use those. All in all you may not get EVERYTHING from the board but you can get as many signals as possible that way and then set up your own mics/mixer for the rest which you're gonna have to do anyway for the guitars. So first priority would probably be the vox from the main board because that's the one area where it's not really the greatest option to have double mics (even though I have done the "tape two mics together trick before it's just weird and silly). If you have to sub group the back up vocals and record them to one track well so be it. The sound guy should have those levels pretty even anyway. You'll definitely want lead vocals on their own. Then see about getting the bass from the board if they are using a DI box or maybe you could figure out a way to get a dual DI thing happening like say if the bass player has a DI out on his amp you use that and the sound guy uses a DI box to feed to his board. The drums you can just set up your own mics, same with guitar and the bongos. Using the same mic for vox and bongos could be problematic as far as levels. With the drums the most important thing would be to get the kick, snare and at least one overhead. Then you can use the old style drum mixing technique to get your drum sound (but you probably already knew this). There will unfortunately be quite a bit of bleed in the overheads though but with some fancy eq, gating and R-Mix you should be able to clean it up pretty good. I, as you know, am not a pro though but that is how I would try to do it. Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 13:25:46
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/06/20 19:37:36
Oh and you'll probably want to do a thorough test of each channel feeding from the main board. Live boards have a tendency to have lots of crackles from being abused in a bar. Particularly when making fader and pot adjustments. Try to let the sound guy know to not do any changes in the middle of songs if at all possible to avoid that type of nastiness. Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 13:40:48
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/06/20 19:37:47
Oh and if you have an extra mixer and mics around you could mic the entire kit and create your own sub mix so you have a tom track as well. Maybe you could even put the bongos on that same track because the toms and bongos could probably share the same eqing when needed but considering the toms wouldn't be playing all the time you could clone the tom/bongo track, cut out the bongo for the tom track, do some R-Mix, gating, eq, etc to make it truly unique to the toms and use the other clone strictly for the bongo and again try to minimize the toms in that track. Just letting my mind wander through possibilities as I sit on an ice pack. Good luck.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 14:48:40
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/06/20 19:37:53
A Quick thought as I come back from my sedation. :-) Is there any possibility of adding a Behringer ADA8000 Ultralight to your rig? It would get 8 more analog inputs on the RME UCX and then let to use the mixcontrol on the RME to work as a splitter of sorts for the output that you send to the Bose sound engines. I guess you will become the defacto FOH mixer using the mixcontrol. I was wondering why you weren't just tracking it all with the Tascam 2488, but I am realizing it is because you probably don't have a bunch of splitters and needed to use the a "Through" type routing for the actual room mix. I just looked and the Behringer costs a bit more than I thought, but that unit has a great rep and it will help you make the most of the potential of that RME unit. Maybe you can find a loaner? If you can swing it, having those extra inputs all on the UCX clock could put in a more relaxed position. best regards, mike
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Beepster
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 15:01:55
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He could probably rent one or something similar for the night. Put it on the band's tab.
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 17:07:37
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I'm working on acquiring the Behringer. That's an amazing price for the device. Guitar Works is trying to up-sell me to the Focusrite Pro 40. I'm still seeing if I can get my hands on one. I had no idea that I could get an 8 channel A/D converter with Pres for such a great price. The also suggested this M-Audio ProFire 2626. There's one on ebay for $165, but it wouldn't be here by Saturday. Honestly, I think I should get one of these. If I put my hands on one for a reasonable price, I'll buy it. Thanks for the advice, Mike_mccue. @Beepster, I am the only sound person, and there is no 'board' to speak of. Only this pole speaker thing described above. I'm working on borrowing a PA from another friend, but I will probably just send to it from the RME. Mike is exactly right, I will be mixing inside RME's Total Mix Software one mouse click at a time. I did this in January for a band and if it hadn't been for a feedback from a condensor mic I put on the stage, the concert would have gone really well. By set break I pulled that mic out of the mix and the guitarist turned up his amp and everything go better. I have no skill at 'ringing out the room'. If I can get the Behringer, I'll be able to pull in any tracks I want that I'm recording.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/20 17:09:12
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And Mike, It's great to see you recovering well!
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/23 01:03:19
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I got a 16 track recording. I didn't monitor a whole bunch of the tracks during the recording. There's a limit to how much one person can do. But I record 16 tracks and that by itself as a new accomplishment for me. Thanks to everyone who helped me. :-)
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Beepster
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/25 12:42:34
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I totally misunderstood what you were looking for. Apologies. Glad it worked out. I've always wanted to try the portable studio thing to capture live bands. Live recordings are my favorite. Much more life and energy.
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/26 11:40:10
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StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/26 14:13:09
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Sounds like the live session turned out pretty decent.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/27 09:37:48
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StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/28 10:13:01
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Great job! Tell us how you captured your tracks! best regards, mike
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/28 11:04:42
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For the recording, I used the Tascam 2488 connected to the RME UCX with spidf and the RME as master. 16 tracks...
- 1 snare - dynamic shure set - 3 Toms mics - 2 from dynamic shure set plus 1 from the drummer - 1 Over head (other vocal mics were so close they can be used for extra overhead sounds) - Omni Condenser SP B3 - 1 Kick - dynamic shure set - 5 vocal mics - 1 Bongos - Miked below with a dynamic - mic unknown - tons of bleed - 1 Bongos - Miked above with a condenser (baby blue) - tons of bleed - 1 Bass (balanced out from the bass amp) - 1 dynamic on an electric rhythm guitar amp AKG D880 - 1 condenser on the lead electric amp - Shure SM86
I was sending to the mains and the monitors from the Tascam, so it was not safe to solo in headphones. If it wasn't routed to the mains, I only prayed it would sound ok. That's why it took some time to discover that the lead guitar mic was plugged into a port that didn't have Phantom Power. I was aware it was a problem in the second song, but not until the 7th did I realize what the problem was and remediate by switching cables all around.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/28 11:09:04
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Thanks for all your encouragement, Mike. It makes a big difference. And Danny is giving me guidance on the mix. I'm very grateful.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/30 11:12:28
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StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/30 13:30:22
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StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/06/30 16:47:39
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So, we ran the whole band off a single wall jack. I know my gear alone was probably pulling 6 amps. The Tascam is 2 and so is the laptop. I don't know the RME UCX. The Quad Mic Pre pulls almost nothing. All the bands gear including the PA Tower thing, bass amp, guitar amps, and vocal monitors were powered off the same wall outlet with 2 standard jacks. How bad of an idea was that?
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/07/01 07:15:28
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It's great way to keep ground issues from happening. You may have some voltage sag, but the modern stuff that doesn't like that has voltage regulators to help with the sag. I use one wall jack, as you did, until there's a need to bring in a power distro box and tap straight into the mains panel. Using a single outlet is a good, practical compromise. Most of the time you try to use 2 sources of power you will end up with a ground loop noise. The irony is that the bigger, small shows, where you think you may be running low on power... are the ones where you have the system gain running hot and so the quieter noises become problematic. If you are doing a quiet coffee shop sing and strum you might not notice a ground buzz as much as you did if you had stacks of drivers pumping out a loud signal. So, we elect to keep using the single source until we just can't. best regards, mike
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/07/01 09:55:09
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Thanks Mike! "Just can't" is defined by triggering the circuit breaker? Equipment failures? Not sure. Show comes to a quick halt?
post edited by gswitz - 2013/07/01 10:03:25
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/07/01 10:19:32
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We try to predict when it's definitely going to break the circuit. As you have noticed the amperage ratings on the equipment has some overhead built in. Experience will lead you to understand that adding up the rated current draw gives you some idea of what you need... but you also have some wiggle room. Yes, getting a feel for that wiggle room sometimes involves having the circuit breaker pop. :-) From a practical point of view... make sure you have all 15 or 20 amps on that circuit. Don't share with any lighting or beer coolers. Bring good quality extension cords and you can stage a loud bar band with out too much trouble. I don't recommend lifting a ground... but you can sometimes lift ground and use a 2nd circuit without adding noise. Sometimes you can use a 2nd power circuit because some devices are separated from the system. For example; Mic'd guitar amps that don't have a direct wired connection to the P.A. can be on a 2nd circuit. best regards, mike
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gswitz
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Re: Advice on how to record a band live...
2013/07/01 11:06:21
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Excellent! I always carry one of those ground lift plugs to gigs. I appreciate your feedback!
post edited by gswitz - 2013/07/01 11:12:51
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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