Advise on loudness of new tune

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Telewanger
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2010/11/23 23:23:51 (permalink)

Advise on loudness of new tune

I have been reading about how to record and master music. I played all instruments and recorded a song in my little 14' x 14' studio. I have been using Sonar 8.5 for 3 months. I posted this song last week, but everyone here said that it was very muddy, so I have been working on it this week.

My question is:

How loud should it be, or should it not be?  Is there a way, in Sonar, to jack up the volume without it sounding over compressed?

Right now, it is about as loud as I can get it without the life getting sucked out of it. I can make it loud, but I have no idea how to keep the dynamics and prevent compression pumping or limiting, or what ever causes the weak sound pumping thing.

Here is my finished piece.

Also, on a scale of 1 to 10, how does it sound?

http://www.atlanticplumbing.net/gravity.mp3
 
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=9911353&q=hi&newref=1
post edited by Telewanger - 2010/11/24 08:03:20

" You are either in key or out of key, choose the first option. If it sounds good, play it. If it sounds bad, move on to the next note! "

Michael E. Lynch
#1

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    Lanceindastudio
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/24 00:50:14 (permalink)
    link not working

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    #2
    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/24 01:20:31 (permalink)
    My take on making loud tracks as of April this year (I may have changed my mind on things now, not sure though as I didn't re-read my original post):

    http://forum.cakewalk.com...12&mpage=1#1993631

    Read the rest of the thread for other opinions.

    In short, getting a loud track takes multiple different methods, each adding just a little bit more loudness with minimal quality loss. Simply adding a brickwall limiter will not get you far.

    Please refer to www.turnmeup.org for details on why to NOT go too loud!!


    Currently recording my first album, so if you like my music, please follow me on Facebook!
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    #3
    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/24 01:34:23 (permalink)
    A few months ago (after my post mentioned above) I did work on making a track as hot as possible (I also included a dynamic version for the band). The song was called beautiful and can be found in this directory:

    http://mattlyonsmusic.com/dl/

    Three versions:

    Beautiful.mp3                       dynamic
    Beautiful (loud).mp3             fairly hot
    Beautiful (extra loud).mp3   VERY hot - meant for internet use only, and starting to sound pretty bad

    The final one from memory (I can't listen to it at the moment) was very flat but not really pumping much. There was a fair bit of distortion going on as well. I 'think' it was getting close to today's levels of hotness but a bit more distorted than what the pros can do. I can't really remember and am unnable to listen right now.

    I achieved this result (be it good or bad  - in your opinion) by parallel compression (multiple uses of it - a technique I tried out myself using a dynamic, lightly compressed, heavily compressed and extremely heavily compressed version mixed in parallel, each adding a teeeny bit), multiband compression, brickwall limiting, tape simulator clipping and digital clipping. Something like that. Tried to add every little bit to get it as loud as possible.

    As for listening, will do so when/if I get time to on my monitors

    Disclaimer: I am not a pro, nor do I claim to be! This is just my experience with making hot tunes!


    Currently recording my first album, so if you like my music, please follow me on Facebook!
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    #4
    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/24 01:36:38 (permalink)
    Lanceindastudio


    link not working


    Just copy and paste the link into your browser rather than clicking on it.


    Currently recording my first album, so if you like my music, please follow me on Facebook!
    http://www.facebook.com/mattlyonsmusic

    www.mattlyonsmusic.com 

    #5
    Telewanger
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/24 08:05:32 (permalink)
    Thanks a lot!

    I added another link to my soundclick page, so one of them should work fine.

    " You are either in key or out of key, choose the first option. If it sounds good, play it. If it sounds bad, move on to the next note! "

    Michael E. Lynch
    #6
    bitflipper
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/24 13:25:18 (permalink)
    IMO it's a mistake to shoot for commercial levels early on in the learning curve. Better to be happy getting 90% of the way there and concentrate on all the other facets of recording. Squeezing those last few decibels of loudness has ruined many an amateur recording.

    Start by comparing your recordings to commercial products that are in a similar vein. You can even import them directly into your own project to have as a handy reference any time you need them.

    Just keep in mind that you'll probably never get yours quite as hot, but also that it doesn't really matter. If your record peaks at -1db instead of 0db, nobody is going to notice!

    Perceived volume is determined by and measured in average RMS. SONAR doesn't have a tool for measuring average RMS over an arbitrary section or for an entire song, so you'll need an external tool for that. I use Adobe Audition, others use Sound Forge, but I'm sure one of the freebie editors will do the same thing, probably just with fewer bells & whistles. Here's what AA tells me about your song:

    First, I look at the waveform. I can usually tell just by looking whether I'm in the loudness ballpark or not.



    Looking at the waveform, you can see two distinct horizontal regions: the dense part in the center, and the thinner "hairs" jutting out of it. It is the ratio between these two that determines the balance between microdynamics and overall loudness. If the ratio is too low, that is, the "hairs" don't stick up high enough above the average, you lose "sparkle": the perception of transients like cymbal hits, as well as the sense of spaciousness and stereo width. Some genres are OK with that, of course, but given your genre I'd say you've struck a good balance: ride bell hits are crisp, but there is an overall meatiness.

    Of course, this is all somewhat subjective. You can, however, get a much more objective reading by analyzing the average RMS value.

    This is not as straightforward as you might think. RMS technically measures the power of a single cycle of a sine wave, which is fine for electricians but quite irrelevant to music. When we talk about average RMS in music, we mean an average of averages over time. It's the kind of calculation that would be impossible without the help of a computer.

    What's important to remember is that average RMS is measured over a specific interval. SONAR's RMS meters use, IIRC, a 40ms or 50ms window by default. This lets you take small snapshots and see the RMS value as it changes moment to moment. But you can also measure average RMS over longer periods, up to the entire length of the song.

    Here's what AA's "amplitude statistics" feature tells me about your song:



    Bear in mind that this represents an analysis of the entire song. It's important to also measure this across just the main body of the song. With the intro excluded, the average RMS is ~-13db. You don't want intros and outros to skew the final number.

    The average RMS of -13db falls into a good range for this type of music. It happens to be about where I try to land with my own stuff, which is of a similar genre. It's much quieter than your average contemporary commercial pop/rock product, which might between -8db and -4db average RMS (!). At those hotter levels, a great deal of detail and subtlety is lost, so -12 to -14 is, IMO, a better target. Especially for instrumentals.

    I also see that you've normalized the file right up to 0db. I recommend that serious amateurs don't try to go for 0db, but to leave at 1 or 2 db headroom. Note that AA counted 5 overs - not enough to worry about, but still an indication that you may be a bit too aggressive. Pushing it right up to 0db exposes you to the possibility of intersample clipping. AA interpolates intersample values, so if I zoom in on one of the overs, I can see that your file will indeed exceed 0db when the analog waveform is reconstructed. It's too brief to be audible, but it's a canary-in-the-coalmine indicator that tips you off when you're perilously close to the edge. The effect is exacerbated by MP3 encoding, which tends to cause unexpected peaks due to ringing in the very steep filters employed during the encoding/decoding process.

    The only criticism I have of this particular song isn't technical, but more subjective: its lack of macrodynamics. After the intro, it hits the main level and stays there for the duration of the song. It would benefit, I think, from some targeted thinning. I'm talking about arrangement, not limiting. The microdynamics are quite good and I would not want to see it compressed any further.



    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #7
    batsbrew
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/24 16:08:40 (permalink)
    getting the song 'loud' is not your job as a mix engineer.

    it's getting it to sound 'good'.

    getting it 'LOUD', is a job for a mastering engineer.


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    #8
    Telewanger
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/24 17:17:08 (permalink)
    Bitflipper:
     
    Thanks for the great post!  Great Info!

    One of my friends has been telling me to get it louder and louder, but I don't want to screw it up. His music sounds squashed and I'm not even sure if he can hear it or not. I don't think he knows the difference.

    I am just a songwriter musician, but I would like to mix and master my own music. I want to do every piece of the entire project myself. I will do some serious work on my mixing and mastering and just see how far I can get. Right now everything that I have is in the box. Maybe later I will get some outboard gear. I enjoy sound mixing as well as writing and playing music.

    " You are either in key or out of key, choose the first option. If it sounds good, play it. If it sounds bad, move on to the next note! "

    Michael E. Lynch
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    bitflipper
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/25 10:54:59 (permalink)
    I want to do every piece of the entire project myself.

    I am 100% with you, Michael. While it's undoubtedly true that sending one's stuff out for mastering will produce a higher-quality end product, there is great satisfaction to be derived from doing it all yourself. You write the song, sing it, play it, mix it and generally pour everything you've got into it - why hand it over to a stranger for the last 5%?

    The answer to that rhetorical question is, of course, that you want the best possible recording. But if you follow that logic, why mix it yourself? A professional mixer can probably do that better, too. And why bother even recording it yourself? A proper studio will likely have a better-sounding room and fancier gear. That reasoning, taken to its logical extreme, would suggest that you're wasting your time making your own records!

    None of which, of course, is an argument against batsbrew's position. If you're looking to make a product with commercial potential, it makes sense to bring in all the help you can get. It comes down to whether you're truly a hobbyist or not. Me, I am a hobbyist and make no apologies for it.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #10
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/25 15:31:22 (permalink)
    I listened to a short section from soundclick... to my ears it did not sound overly compressed and then looking at the file from AA that Dave  posted, that was indeed confirmed.

    I try to get a wave file that looks like the one you have when I finish a song. At times I compress a bit more, but I do try to maintain a dynamic song.

    Loudest on the radio doesn't count for much, I'd rather have a song that doesn't fatigue the listener.
    Get it sounding good, retain the dynamics, and use a bit of compression if you feel the need.


    I'm like many here including Dave.... I'm a home recording enthusiast, and do it all myself. I want to learn as much as possible so that my projects can stand side by side with the pro's and not stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. One day.....!
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2010/11/25 15:33:50

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    #11
    Telewanger
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    Re:Advise on loudness of new tune 2010/11/30 18:14:43 (permalink)
    Thanks Guys,

    I appreciate it!

    " You are either in key or out of key, choose the first option. If it sounds good, play it. If it sounds bad, move on to the next note! "

    Michael E. Lynch
    #12
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