Helpful ReplyAgile programming practices - "IT Fad"

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bitman
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bapu
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 01:12:16 (permalink)
I've been saying that for years.
 
Waterfall... properly managed still works best in most situations.
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bitman
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 01:18:16 (permalink)
Except you have to wait until September.
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bapu
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 01:19:03 (permalink)
bitman
Except you have to wait until September.


but it will work
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bitman
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 01:39:44 (permalink)
bapu
bitman
Except you have to wait until September.



but it will work




Sorta - As well as an early access release today or maybe somewhat better. Took a few updates to get it solid even then if you'll recall.
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craigb
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 01:40:54 (permalink)
That article is scrum master bait.

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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BobF
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 01:42:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby craigb 2017/05/05 01:49:10
Parallel waterfalls was always my pref.  The problem with agile isn't the concept, it's the practice.  A lot of shops think agile means 'throw away rigor', which couldn't be further from the truth.
 
Regardless of the model, good code requires discipline.  Not a good fit for millennials 

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craigb
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 01:50:13 (permalink)
The one new practice that makes me LMAO is team programming where one person literally sits and watches another code.  Unbelievable!

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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bitman
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 13:02:07 (permalink)
BobF
 
Regardless of the model, good code requires discipline.  Not a good fit for millennials  [;)





Who unfortunately are the only thing going.
Us old koots do a good job but are set in our ways, an insurance risk, so largely unemployable.
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Slugbaby
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 13:06:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby BobF 2017/05/05 13:51:33
I'm really disappointed that there's finally a work-related topic in this forum (i'm in project management).
At least in my field, Agile is totally inappropriate, but because it's the current fad it's the process I have to follow.
 
My job?  Design the process as requested, and then find ways to circumvent it so that the customers actually gets what they need.

http://www.MattSwiftMusic.com
 
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Slugbaby
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 13:07:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby BobF 2017/05/05 13:51:37
craigb
The one new practice that makes me LMAO is team programming where one person literally sits and watches another code.  Unbelievable!


Unionized shop, is it?  

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Moshkito
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 13:34:15 (permalink)
craigb
That article is scrum master bait.




I was gonna call it ... talk talk talk talk ... 

Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides! 
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craigb
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 16:42:18 (permalink)
More like sprint, sprint, sprint, sprint.

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Hatstand
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 19:56:39 (permalink)
Have to agree with you slug, agile isn't suited to project management or programming for that matter, it works for software product development though. Best thing about it is having daily standups if only to find out who is swinging the lead.
:)

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auto_da_fe
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/05 21:10:19 (permalink)
"My job?  Design the process as requested, and then find ways to circumvent it so that the customers actually gets what they need."
 
This is exactly what I have done for 15 years.  (I am a Network Deployment PM )

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patm300e
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/08 13:02:51 (permalink)
Agile could work if the DAILY scrum meetings stopped getting drug out to 1-2 hours!
I also prefer working alone (at least on my part of the project), been coding for 25+ years, don't need a person sitting behind me telling me where I went wrong...
 
I still prefer waterfall as well.  But you have to beware of the bring me a rock syndrome...Where you code something (usually without requirements!) and the customer says now, I need it to do this and this as well as what you have and in this situation do this and in that situation do that.  This could go on for YEARS without a final product!
 
The up side to the above is you don't have anything to support!

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bitflipper
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/08 18:03:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby craigb 2017/05/09 05:50:53
I subscribe to the Picard Method: think about what you need and then make it so!
 
The single biggest roadblock to programmer productivity has nothing to do with methodology and everything to do with meetings. 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
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sharke
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/09 22:45:39 (permalink)
bitflipper
I subscribe to the Picard Method: think about what you need and then make it so!
 
The single biggest roadblock to programmer productivity has nothing to do with methodology and everything to do with meetings. 




I taught myself to program in AMOS on the Amiga by going through the reference manual with all the commands in alphabetical order, and slowly coming to realize how those commands were combined into useful stuff.  I set about writing a large utility for guitar players (complete with 3D GUI programmed entirely from scratch) which did a load of useful stuff, like working out every possible fingering of a chord and which chords went with which scales etc. Having had no formal training in what was the "right" or "established" way of solving these problems, I loved the whole process of sitting down and thinking "right, I need to do this" and methodically coming up with an algorithm to do it. It felt like describing a big mechanical machine to the computer in intricate detail and to this day I think it probably stands as the most creatively satisfying thing I've ever done. I had reams of paper all over the place with flow diagrams and notes and bits of code scrawled on them, and I was constantly trying to work out ways to make my code smaller and more efficient. In the end the whole thing ended up at around 300Kb including all of the data for the chords, scales and musical theory that was in it. I would bet that some of the algorithms I came up with were actually established practice, and I wouldn't be surprised if I invented some new ones as well. 
 
When later I set out to learn how to code properly from books, I found I didn't enjoy it as much. 

James
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#18
craigb
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/10 04:46:42 (permalink)
sharke
bitflipper
I subscribe to the Picard Method: think about what you need and then make it so!
 
The single biggest roadblock to programmer productivity has nothing to do with methodology and everything to do with meetings. 




I taught myself to program in AMOS on the Amiga by going through the reference manual with all the commands in alphabetical order, and slowly coming to realize how those commands were combined into useful stuff.  I set about writing a large utility for guitar players (complete with 3D GUI programmed entirely from scratch) which did a load of useful stuff, like working out every possible fingering of a chord and which chords went with which scales etc. Having had no formal training in what was the "right" or "established" way of solving these problems, I loved the whole process of sitting down and thinking "right, I need to do this" and methodically coming up with an algorithm to do it. It felt like describing a big mechanical machine to the computer in intricate detail and to this day I think it probably stands as the most creatively satisfying thing I've ever done. I had reams of paper all over the place with flow diagrams and notes and bits of code scrawled on them, and I was constantly trying to work out ways to make my code smaller and more efficient. In the end the whole thing ended up at around 300Kb including all of the data for the chords, scales and musical theory that was in it. I would bet that some of the algorithms I came up with were actually established practice, and I wouldn't be surprised if I invented some new ones as well. 
 
When later I set out to learn how to code properly from books, I found I didn't enjoy it as much. 




This was actually one of the things I enjoyed most back in the day.  Now all the parts are pre-made and just have to be put in where needed.
 
Heck, I may be the only person ever to have created (against my extreme resistance) a working full-screen editor...  IN COBOL!  I had an idiot manager who didn't understand that it was the wrong language for the task.  One of the other programmers kept a print out of my program on his wall as art - lol!

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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patm300e
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/15 12:06:15 (permalink)
craigb
This was actually one of the things I enjoyed most back in the day.  Now all the parts are pre-made and just have to be put in where needed.
 
Heck, I may be the only person ever to have created (against my extreme resistance) a working full-screen editor...  IN COBOL!  I had an idiot manager who didn't understand that it was the wrong language for the task.  One of the other programmers kept a print out of my program on his wall as art - lol!


Yes, today programming IS more Google copy and paste!
Not much in original thought.  I guess if you find someone who is good at jigsaw puzzles, they could actually be trained to program.  They know how the pieces fit together!
 

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KenB123
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/15 12:36:10 (permalink)
Being assigned to a full-blown Agile based development project late in my software application development career, helped me make the decision to finally end my career in software development. I've been in the field for some 30+ years. With the company attempting to move to Agile, I was assigned to one of the first-wave projects.  Contracting with experienced outside Agile developers, I found the whole process a bit overbearing. Daily stand-up status meetings. Constantly in a room with people representing various projects inputs (e.g., business, analysts, testers, developers, etc). After being on it for a short while I thought maybe a younger person would have been better suited for this 'experience'. They might adapt easier and also have a better attitude to adapt as their job will depend on it. I being later in my career and already having thoughts of the big -R (i.e., retirement), this experience just made my decision occur earlier than I had planned. I did give it a good try though and stuck with it for just under a year. I guess I have mixed feelings about the whole concept. Some aspects are good. Some are bad. A lot depends on the type of person also. Extroverts and 'showboaters' I think will do well under this type of environment. Those on the more introverted side might find this environment intimidating. And I am really not sure whether it truly will speed up and improve the quality of the development cycle. I guess each development house will just determine that over time with acquired experience in the process.      
post edited by KenB123 - 2017/05/15 13:42:06

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#21
craigb
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/15 15:43:07 (permalink)
Unfortunately, long-term waterfall projects just don't cut it any more.  By the time you're done (are you ever "done???"), if you didn't allow scope creep, then what you've produced probably isn't relevant anymore! 
 
I've always lobbied for more, smaller, implementations preferring to deliver the most requested features as soon as possible to the end-user, but it's not always possible like when you're completely redesigning an interface.
 
Of course, I can't help but laugh at trying this with the Defense Contractor I worked at back in the early 80's.  To make a code change you had to:
 
1) Checkout the printed code from the facility librarian,
2) Mark the code up in red ink,
3) Make SEVEN (yes, 7!) copies to distribute for comment,
4) Attempt to incorporate all feedback with more red ink,
5) Perform steps 3 & 4 until there were no more comments,
6) Actually code & test (with any major changes going through steps 3 & 4 again),
7) Send the code to the testing department,
8) Send the code to the CMQA Tech. Lead (me) to see if it plays well with the rest of the system,
9) Send the code to the Architecture Group for actual installation and, finally,
10) Check in a printout of the final code to the facility librarian.
 
You wouldn't believe how long even a one line change took!

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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BobF
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/15 18:38:41 (permalink)
craigb
Unfortunately, long-term waterfall projects just don't cut it any more.  By the time you're done (are you ever "done???"), if you didn't allow scope creep, then what you've produced probably isn't relevant anymore! 
 
I've always lobbied for more, smaller, implementations preferring to deliver the most requested features as soon as possible to the end-user, but it's not always possible like when you're completely redesigning an interface.
 
Of course, I can't help but laugh at trying this with the Defense Contractor I worked at back in the early 80's.  To make a code change you had to:
 
1) Checkout the printed code from the facility librarian,
2) Mark the code up in red ink,
3) Make SEVEN (yes, 7!) copies to distribute for comment,
4) Attempt to incorporate all feedback with more red ink,
5) Perform steps 3 & 4 until there were no more comments,
6) Actually code & test (with any major changes going through steps 3 & 4 again),
7) Send the code to the testing department,
8) Send the code to the CMQA Tech. Lead (me) to see if it plays well with the rest of the system,
9) Send the code to the Architecture Group for actual installation and, finally,
10) Check in a printout of the final code to the facility librarian.
 
You wouldn't believe how long even a one line change took!




My shop went to staggered parallel waterfalls with merge backs.  We were doing a release every 90 days until the business cried uncle.  They couldn't train that fast.  We went to 120 days.  That was actually a pretty good pace for our industry.
 
In reality I think our biggest challenge was getting the the folks in the business, particularly product development, to finalize their plans.  They wanted 12 mos to make up their minds, then wanted a 30 day implementation.
 
 

Bob  --
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#23
Slugbaby
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Re: Agile programming practices - "IT Fad" 2017/05/15 18:42:46 (permalink)
BobF
They wanted 12 mos to make up their minds, then wanted a 30 day implementation.
 

That single sentence epitomizes my industry.

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