Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position?

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rogeriodec
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2016/04/13 21:09:38 (permalink)

Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position?

Does anyone could tell me if - as already occurs in Altiverb 6 - I still need an instance of Altiverb 7 for each instrument position in an orchestra?
For example, for strings, one instance; for brass, another instance and so on?
This consumes a lot of computer resources.
Or is it possible to have all positions being managed by a single Altiverb 7 instance?

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    cclarry
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/13 21:37:42 (permalink)
    Typically a Reverb is placed on a Bus, and the instruments 
    are sent to the bus and adjusted based on their relative "position" in the 
    sound field, to replicate that particular "Space" usually a hall in the
    case of an Orchestra.  This saves drastically on CPU usage, as opposed to
    placing an instance on "each instrument", which would become
    highly CPU intensive.

    Or you could run each "Section" to it's own bus with a Reverb
    on each buss for each "Section" and adjusted for the proper
    spacial placement of that "Section" in the overall Orchestra.
    This still saves on CPU usage, again, as opposed to an instance
    on "each instrument".


    #2
    michael diemer
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/13 22:02:53 (permalink)
    I like the second method described above. The first is more complicated, especially in orchestral music, as you have to adjust each instruments settings. It gives you greater control, but you really have to know what you're doing. The second method is much simpler and still saves on CPU.

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    #3
    rogeriodec
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 09:45:46 (permalink)
    cclarry
    Typically a Reverb is placed on a Bus, and the instruments 
    are sent to the bus and adjusted based on their relative "position" in the 
    sound field, to replicate that particular "Space" usually a hall in the
    case of an Orchestra.  This saves drastically on CPU usage, as opposed to
    placing an instance on "each instrument", which would become
    highly CPU intensive.

    Or you could run each "Section" to it's own bus with a Reverb
    on each buss for each "Section" and adjusted for the proper
    spacial placement of that "Section" in the overall Orchestra.
    This still saves on CPU usage, again, as opposed to an instance
    on "each instrument".


    But even so, for I have for example 3 different sections in orchestra, I have yet to have 3 instances of Altiverb, even if they are placed in buses; ie I can't have different positions using a single instance of Altiverb, correct?

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 10:11:51 (permalink)
    Altiverb is a "true" stereo convolution reverb, meaning that it processes left and right channels independently. The first violin section, for example, will be mostly handled by the left reverb channel, while cellos are mostly handled by the right channel.
     
    The purpose of this design is to mimic each instrument's position in the panorama within the reverb signal, in a manner similar to what a real physical space does. In a real room, the earliest, loudest and brightest reflections emanate from the same side of the room as the instrument.
     
    That doesn't mean that the violins stay entirely on the left, though, because in a real room they also reflect off the right-hand wall and hit the listener's ear from that direction. Those reflections take a little longer to get to your ear due to the longer distance traveled, are quieter and have less high-frequency content in them. 
     
    Reverb, whether natural or electronic, necessarily blurs the panorama. That's not a bad thing, especially when it comes to acoustical instruments and the classical orchestra. It's what anyone who's attended an actual concert would expect.
     
    Which is a long-winded way of saying you'll be OK using a single instance of Altiverb on a reverb bus without compromising the placement of orchestral instruments. They should still sound natural.
     
    Of course, sometimes "natural" isn't what you're after. You might want a left-panned instrument's reverb to be unnaturally stronger on the right, for instance, for a ping-pong effect. In that case, you might want a separate reverb just for that instrument, but even then I'd try using the send pan control first.
     


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    rogeriodec
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 10:44:53 (permalink)
    Thank you for your excellent explanation.
    Excuse my ignorance, it was not clear for me: in Sonar, how can I have two reverb positions using a single instance of Altiverb? See the image below:
     


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    cclarry
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 11:01:08 (permalink)
    Each instance of Altiverb on the bus would replicate the
    relative location of the particular "Section" that you
    are adding Reverb to in the sound field.  You wouldn't have
    two positions, but rather only one position in the "Stereo Field" and
    Altiverb replicates that particular Position's acoustics in Stereo... 


    #7
    rogeriodec
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 11:33:04 (permalink)
    cclarry
    Each instance of Altiverb on the bus would replicate the
    relative location of the particular "Section" 



    After all, it is what I am saying from the beginning: for each position, I need a new instance.
    That was my question.
    But thanks for all the support.

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    michael diemer
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 12:43:48 (permalink)
    It is indeed possible to have just have one Altiverb instance for all the instruments (or sections). You use the 'sends' on the console control panels. To have it on each instrument, you need to use multiple outputs on your synth. Sonar has some excellent tutorials on this. This allows you to adjust each instrument or group, with only one reverb instance. The difference comes from the sends, which you adjust for each inst. or group. Or you can go with the simpler method of just outputting the synth directly to the reverb instance. This does not involve using sends, and you have less control, unless you have more than one reverb instance. but it seems you want to avoid that. Thus, sends would be the way to go. I'm currently using two Spaces instances for an orchestral work, both with the same Hall, but one with  a bit more wet signal, which I adjusted directly on the Spaces instance. I change the output of the synths to the reverb I want, dry instruments getting the wetter one.
     
    http://www.cakewalk.com/S...9/Advanced-Bus-Routing

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    #9
    rogeriodec
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 13:33:44 (permalink)
    Thanks, I know how to use Send, but as far as I know, send allows more dry or wet reverb, but does not allows me to set multiple positions on stage on a single instance of Altiverb.
    Could you explain a little bit more?

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    cclarry
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 13:41:45 (permalink)
    rogeriodec
    cclarry
    Each instance of Altiverb on the bus would replicate the
    relative location of the particular "Section" 



    After all, it is what I am saying from the beginning: for each position, I need a new instance.
    That was my question.
    But thanks for all the support.



    And that was my answer...i.e.

    you would have one instance of Altiverb for the Strings
    (obviously could even break that down to Violins, Violas, Cellos..etc..)
    one for the Brass, one of the woodwinds, one for perscussion, etc..

    You're "OP" said each INSTRUMENT position, not each "Section"...
    while you could do each "Instrument Position" you are now using more
    and more instances of Altiverb, which will continually eat away at your CPU...
     
     


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    DarinBad
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 14:26:03 (permalink)
    rogeriodec
    Thanks, I know how to use Send, but as far as I know, send allows more dry or wet reverb, but does not allows me to set multiple positions on stage on a single instance of Altiverb.
    Could you explain a little bit more?




    I haven't used Sonar in a while, but does it not have a pan control for the send? I would think it would, as it's very common to use the pan control on an effects send to deliver the signal into the proper space on a stereo effects bus.

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    michael diemer
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 15:37:17 (permalink)
    Maybe you should look into Virtual Sound Stage? I've often been tempted to try it (which you can do for free). It is not a reverb,, but a spatial positioning plug-in, which lets you put each instrument exactly where you want it, in two dimensions. I hear nothing but good things about it, so it may be worth looking into.

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    #13
    rogeriodec
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 22:04:11 (permalink)
    michael diemer
    Maybe you should look into Virtual Sound Stage? I've often been tempted to try it (which you can do for free). It is not a reverb,, but a spatial positioning plug-in, which lets you put each instrument exactly where you want it, in two dimensions. I hear nothing but good things about it, so it may be worth looking into.



    Well, Altiverb does the same thing, but also includes reverb....
    And reading the "Basic Setup" of VSS:
    You’ll need an instance of VirtualSoundStage for every instrument you want to put into the virtual room. So first of all you need to make sure that all of your instruments are available as seperate stereo tracks within your DAW. 

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    michael diemer
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/14 23:06:30 (permalink)
    Have you tried the suggestion of changing the pan knob on the console panel? 

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/15 09:36:50 (permalink)
    DarinBad
     
    I haven't used Sonar in a while, but does it not have a pan control for the send? I would think it would, as it's very common to use the pan control on an effects send to deliver the signal into the proper space on a stereo effects bus.



    Yes, there is a send pan control. Aux sends preserve panning by default, but may optionally be unlinked from the main track pan and set independently. It can be a nice special effect for lead instruments and vocals.
     
    However, this control is only useful for mono tracks, and only when you specifically want the reverb send to be panned differently from the main signal. Normally, an aux send's panning follows the track pan, and normally that's exactly what you want.
     
    It's especially not needed nor recommended when using pre-panned orchestral sections/instruments on stereo tracks. Remember, panning means nothing on a stereo track or a stereo send. In that context, it's just a left-right balance control and shifts the entire stereo content. You don't want to shove the entire orchestra to one side of the stage!
     
     


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    rogeriodec
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/15 13:31:12 (permalink)
    I finally decided to ask directly to  Audio Ease support.
    I think with this we have the entire solution at once.
    Thank you all for the attention.
     
    Below the answer:
     
    Aram Verwoest replied:
     
    Hi Rogerio,
    If you want to use multiple positions you will have to do this with multiple Altiverb instances.
    But there is a trick:
    the IR is divided in three parts, direct, early reflections and tail
    the stage positioning tool controls the first two (direct and early), these are relatively short.
    so, what you can do is create 7 AUX tracks.
    insert an Altiverb on each, and load the same IR.
    Then on the first 6 you turn off the tail (saves processing)
    and you route the first 6 into AUX 7 and on this one you only turn ON tail (turn OFF direct and early).
    Then you can set up 6 different locations on the first 6 aux channels.
    Then route your instruments to these six locations.
    Here’s an instruction on how to do this in Altiverb 6:
    http://www.audioease.com/Pages/Altiverb/AltiverbStagepositions.html
    in Altiverb 7 this works the same, then direct/early/tail controls are in the panel below the pre-delay and attack controls.

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    #17
    rogeriodec
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/15 13:34:15 (permalink)
    I finally decided to ask directly to support Audioease, which is the manufacturer of Altiverb, below the answer:
     
    Aram Verwoest replied:

    Hi Rogerio,
    If you want to use multiple positions you will have to do this with multiple Altiverb instances.
    But there is a trick:
    the IR is divided in three parts, direct, early reflections and tail
    the stage positioning tool controls the first two (direct and early), these are relatively short.
    so, what you can do is create 7 AUX tracks.
    insert an Altiverb on each, and load the same IR.
    Then on the first 6 you turn off the tail (saves processing)
    and you route the first 6 into AUX 7 and on this one you only turn ON tail (turn OFF direct and early).
    Then you can set up 6 different locations on the first 6 aux channels.
    Then route your instruments to these six locations.
    Here’s an instruction on how to do this in Altiverb 6:
    http://www.audioease.com/Pages/Altiverb/AltiverbStagepositions.html
    in Altiverb 7 this works the same, then direct/early/tail controls are in the panel below the pre-delay and attack controls.

    Best regards, 

    Aram Verwoest 
    Audio Ease support 
    support@audioease.com 

    Connect with us to stay up to date: 
    https://www.facebook.com/AudioEase 
    https://www.instagram.com/audioease 
     
    With that I think we have all the solution now.
    Thank you all for the attention.

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    michael diemer
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    Re: Altiverb 7 - One instance per instrument position? 2016/04/16 12:26:30 (permalink)
    I hope this solves the problem! Sounds rather complicated, but these things usually are.

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