AdamGrossmanLG
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Am I Recording Too Low?
Hello Everyone, I am working on a minimal synth-pop track - literally just drums (mono), bass (mono) chords and strings (stereo). , I understand when tracking I should make sure no individual track should really peak over -10db, so my drums being the loudest I have peaking just at -9.7db (good enough), and other tracks lower than that. My master bus using Span meter is reporting RMS -26 RMS / Peak -6 RMS. The mix process is not going to be much different than what I already have as my tracks sound great. Maybe some gentle compression and some gentle saturation - but I am going to level match what I already have using make up gain or whatever I need to do. My question is this.... Should I be tracking even lower than the mix stage? Do i need to leave headroom for the MIX phase or JUST mix phase to mastering phase? If I submit these tracks with -26 RMS and peaks of -6 RMS to a mastering engineer, that should be a good level right? My waveforms look smaller than what I see in other people's projects, so I am a bit confused. Could just be because these are NOT mastered tracks yet? Thank You, Adam
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Zargg
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 05:34:44
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If it sounds the way you want it to, I would say that you are in good shape. Leave some headroom for mastering. If you want it to be louder (for you visual pleasure:-)), you could normalize the track. Best of luck
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 05:47:15
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Your levels are absolutely fine. If you want to see bigger waveforms, just click & drag on the grey section (between the meters & the waveform)
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dlesaux
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 05:52:56
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Zargg71 If it sounds the way you want it to, I would say that you are in good shape. Leave some headroom for mastering. If you want it to be louder (for you visual pleasure:-)), you could normalize the track. Best of luck
Another way of making it louder would be to add a limiter during mastering on the master buss.
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TremoJem
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 06:45:34
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Would someone define "normalizing"? If you normalize "tracks", vs. normalizing "a" track, or normalizing two tracks against one another. I guess I just don't get it...thanks.
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Zargg
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 07:15:27
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It is another word for increasing the volume. If you normalize a track / tracks to -2, your peak of that track / tracks (the loudest part / transient) will be at -2 (on your meter). You can also use use gain to increase the level to your liking. Mark the track / tracks you want to process, go to process and https://www.dropbox.com/s/2dnjpxln2ld2reo/SONAR%20normalize%20audio.jpg?dl=0Best of luck.
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TremoJem
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 09:48:42
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Oh my god...never new. Never used this. So how does this work with volume automation. Oh, and what if I have 16 tracks and normalize them all to -12. Does that make them all even and then to mix I would apply compression and volume automation to controls dips and wanted increases in volume. I guess I should just grab an old project and start from scratch using this to normalize all tracks...as this is what you do right...you normalize all tracks...I don't know, I can't wait to try this. Going to youtube now to see what they have to offer on this. Man, I am glad I asked. Edit/Not a lot of real good videos on this. But I will keep working to learn more about this.
post edited by TremoJem - 2015/05/14 10:07:04
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Zargg
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 10:22:48
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It would totally depend on the dynamics of the individual tracks. Take a vocal track for example. No singer would ever be able to sing at a totally consistent volume. Therefor the highest peak of that track would be at selected at set normalize level. At 24 bit (recordings), you do not have to worry to much about that level ((more headroom) many threads on this forum about that).
post edited by Zargg71 - 2015/05/14 10:30:52
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Zargg
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 10:35:38
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Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 10:43:26
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Be careful. I only ever normalize when I bring an audio file into Sonar that needs a bit of "beefing up" in volume.
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Zargg
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 11:03:17
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Bristol_Jonesey Be careful. I only ever normalize when I bring an audio file into Sonar that needs a bit of "beefing up" in volume.
And this.
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AT
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 11:11:08
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Normalization simply discovers the highest vol in a track and raises the whole track so that point equals the normalization vol. Something like -3 db becomes the loudest part of the track rather than, in your example, -9.7. The rest of the track is raised in vol proportionally so you keep the dynamics, unlike compression and limiting. It is mostly done to raise the level of a track that was recorded too low for whatever reason. Once a track is normalized, it can be manipulated like any other audio track, tho it is likely louder. And you don't need to "see" the waveform, of course, unless you want to edit it physically. You're levels look fine and there are plenty of ways to raise the overall level of song, all of which have trade offs. Volume automation is the most natural, comp/limiters raise the average level while ... compressing the difference between the loudest and softest sounds, and normalization and physically editing peaks are destructive methods. @
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gswitz
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 12:11:31
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If hiss is audible then you are recording to low.
I think of normalization as gain changes made concrete with zero risk of overage.
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John
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 12:17:52
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A good technique is cut volume when mixing. Keep in mind as tracks are summed at the master buss there is going to be a volume increase. I like to lower all faders when I start mixing. I bring each one up as needed as I work on each track. Over time I may need to readjust faders so a track sits right in relation to other tracks. Automation is very useful here but should be applied after most all other levels are well set. Otherwise it will need to be re-automated. One shouldn't worry too much about the final volume when mixing. That should be a concern when the mix is well on its way to being finished. I like to master a stereo file of the mix not the mix itself. I don't mind going back and redo a mix if the mastering is not working. Mastering should be simple and easy. If it isn't a remix may be needed. With Sonar's Mix-recall Sonar has taken a great leap forward for being able to judge different approaches to mixing a song or project. Also try the mix as a mono mix. See if it has all its frequencies and they are in the proper relationship as the stereo mix. If you loose an instrument in the mono mix its mixed wrong. Levels when recording are not as much an issue if done at 24 bits. 16 bits will need careful monitoring to have a good level without clipping. 24 bits is very forgiving and will save a lot of hard work in the long run. The above are a few tips in basic mixing.
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Anderton
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 12:30:26
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Don't normalize to 100% as there can still be overs from inter-sample distortion. If there are overs, even if not audible, many CD pressing plants will reject the CD due to distortion. This can also happen if the signal hits 100% for a lot of sequential samples. If someone wants MAXIMUM LEVEL they'll normalize to 0.001dB or whatever to avoid hitting 100%, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of inter-sample distortion. BTW I love getting tracks to master that have 6 to 12 dB or headroom, gives me a bigger sandbox to play in.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 13:46:31
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Anderton Don't normalize to 100% as there can still be overs from inter-sample distortion. If there are overs, even if not audible, many CD pressing plants will reject the CD due to distortion. This can also happen if the signal hits 100% for a lot of sequential samples. If someone wants MAXIMUM LEVEL they'll normalize to 0.001dB or whatever to avoid hitting 100%, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of inter-sample distortion. BTW I love getting tracks to master that have 6 to 12 dB or headroom, gives me a bigger sandbox to play in.
meaning that your pre-master peaks are usually between the -6db and -12db range? Do you use K-metering at all?
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Anderton
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 14:16:51
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alewgro meaning that your pre-master peaks are usually between the -6db and -12db range? Do you use K-metering at all? Sort of...it's a variation I came up with before K-metering was around. But I should really switch over to be in sync with the rest of the world. There's always a first time
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 14:24:09
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2015/05/14 17:53:16
Anderton
alewgro meaning that your pre-master peaks are usually between the -6db and -12db range?
Do you use K-metering at all? Sort of...it's a variation I came up with before K-metering was around. But I should really switch over to be in sync with the rest of the world. There's always a first time 
yea i just moved over, but its weird... they say to master at K-12, but K-12 seems to be about 3db lower average RMS than typical modern day produced. I'm guessing people are mastering around K-10 or K-8 now but most meters dont go that high
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konradh
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 16:09:19
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Do the numbers in your post indicate a 20 db difference between the average signal and a solitary peak? If so, that is not bad, but it is a pretty large dynamic range for pop music. If that is the case, you might see if there is just one spot causing that -6db peak, in which case maybe you've got a tom that needs a high-pass, or some other one-time anomaly. The only reason that matters is that you don't want to have to master the whole song at a low level just to account for one peak. If that's not the case, then ignore my comments. :-) A -6db peak is fine for a track to be sent off for mastering (although I am guilty of usually cutting hotter).
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gswitz
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/14 17:49:59
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alewgro yea i just moved over, but its weird... they say to master at K-12, but K-12 seems to be about 3db lower average RMS than typical modern day produced. I'm guessing people are mastering around K-10 or K-8 now but most meters dont go that high That's so interesting to me. I mostly listen to stuff I'm mixing and that is almost always to -14. I strain to get to -12, putting up resistance.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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TremoJem
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Re: Am I Recording Too Low?
2015/05/15 06:40:53
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O.K. I think I get it. I guess I am not really doing to bad then. I can see where I might use this tool, that is new to me and have never used. Thanks for the great info. I really dig this forum...of all the forums for guitars, amps, music etc. this is truly the best.
Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser Most importantly...not enough time. www.studiocat.com jim@studiocat.com
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