syrath
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 04:12:48
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement_of_software Have a good read through this and see what applies to you. However I agree with a lot of people in that if you go ahead and buy the software, it is in your benefit in the long run. If you do not feel like buying the software there are in fact many free alternatives (if you get, for example, a copy of the magazine Computer Music, you get a full software suite for making music that rivals many of the features of the pro software for absolutely no cost). The magazine is published in the UK but is sold around the world.
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jmeier
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 09:12:15
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i should probably be more specific about my points here. ORIGINAL: Kakkoii
I would like to point out the reason why I can't get a job right now. I can't because I have slipped into clinical depression over the last year and a half. And have become very suicidal and depressed. I spend all my days at home, Because it keeps me from socializing, and makes me feel like the ugliest person in the world. It's being worked on with my psychologist, but it's a very hard struggle.
right, been there done that, as have most 16 year olds since the APA definition of depression is so broad you could drive a truck through it. you're clearly using it as an excuse, which i doubt any therapist would condone, because it just encourages you to cling to the diagnostic label as a justification for what you're doing. one of the key elements of the depressive mindset is blaming everything on external forces--you can challenge that assumption you're making, and there is a fairly large body of research that taking responsibility for your life really can help you get out of the depressive mindset. moreover, i don't know why being depressed would entitle one to any particular economic privileges when it comes to music software. you do have a computer and an internet connection, so you can't be that bad off; it's not like you're talking about a loaf of bread to feed your family. this seems irrelevant and intellectually sloppy to bring in as a point. The situation here, people really need to think about a little more. There HAS TO BE a loss for something to be stolen. That is the fact of stealing. Whether it is stealing someones heart with you're good looks, or taking a diamond from a jewelry store. see, now here's the problem--you're making an insistent and uniform definition of stealing when in reality, most people would recognize that stealing can take many different forms and asserting with capitals what the essential elements of a definition of a concept doesn't necessarily make it so. i can think of situations where theft obviously can occur without demonstrable "loss" (e.g., you take something that someone never uses) or where the loss is not in common physical terms of leeching off someone's internet connection or stealing cable, but where you really are putting a strain on a system used by someone else. you should at least concede that there is an argument that theft does not necessarily need to involve physical loss. in sum, rather than making these backfill arguments, why not just admit that you're not morally perfect? deal with it. no one is, you might as well be honest with yourself about where you're probably crossing a line. And they're is really nothing wrong with sharing a program between two friends. If I go into a restaurant and buy 1 meal, and share it with my friend, instead of buying a second one, Am I stealing from the restaurant? this has quite a few holes in it. first, you assert there is nothing wrong with sharing a program between two friends, whereas others differ in opinion. to move the debate forward you'd need to introduce new information or arguments. and as far as sharing a meal, plenty of buffet restaurants do have a policy against sharing food, in which case it really would be stealing by any definition (loss of property occurs) to share food.
post edited by jmeier - 2007/08/15 09:14:21
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kaylen
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 09:22:12
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There HAS TO BE a loss for something to be stolen. That is the fact of stealing. , The product depends on people to want it and buy it,if you want it and steal it, it is a loss, In a small but true way all of us who paid have contributed to this site ,If you steal your program you are ripping off all of us, Making us wait longer for further development,I sugest you get over your "poor me", attitude and go mow a lawn or something, Think about personal responsability,working for and buying something you wand may helpful to your depesion, Id think ridding on the backs of my fellow citizens would also be depressing
post edited by kaylen - 2007/08/15 09:25:03
Music is as useless and unimportant as life itself Kaylen, Win 7 Home pr, 6GB DDR3, intel2120 X2P, Battery 4, BFD2, BFD Eco, EZdrmr Finale 2012
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:10:
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 10:04:35
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I would love to hear what cakewalk has to say about this....  although, they really don't get involved with these types of discussion's. surprised it hasn't been moved, or locked yet.  personaly...you should have never even brought it up. I never understood why anyone posts on these topics. looking for attention I guess.
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Wonk
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 10:27:16
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Woke up this morning with a stick in my... er... uhm... Nostril - yeah - that's it, so I feel like being a bit of a pedant (as my nom de plumb might otherwise imply). Our new friend and perspective (rightfully or wrongfully, TBA) Project 5 owner came in and, bleating like an ethically stunted, starving artist over his poor financial prospects, asked us to validate or invalidate his hypothetical rationalization for "borrowing" a copy of Cakewalk's rightful property until he and his friend strike it rich in the often fickle music business, or until such time as he acquires gainful employment that would allow for his proclivity for making cheap electro-house, on tha' fly. Now, I know what you're all thinking. "Wonk, it's been stated, time and time again, that you needn't bother yourself with explaining the ins and outs of computer software intellectual property rights bequeathed to Cakewalk under complex and often misleading legal code." You would hasten to add, in your hypothetical thoughts regarding my pronouncements on this: "Your posts are often too long-winded, but this carping, quasi-sadistic, foray into mental-masturbation really takes the cake! Why have you devoted such effort to explaining yourself? You're acting like a fool! That's it! I'm not reading one more word..." Well fine, but I am entertained as his question proposes the following givens: 1) His friend purchased a copy of Project 5. 2) He does not own a copy of Project 5. 3) He wants a copy of Project 5. 4) He does not have enough money for a copy of Project 5. To which the question was asked (...begged or pleaded, if you wish), "Am I aloud (SIC) to copy his (friend's) legally owned copy of Project 5 and use it as though it were my own with an implied promissory to purchase a copy of Project 5 for myself when I find a woman gullible enough to purchase it for me as a token of her love?" As a matter of practicality he asked, "What harm is created when Cakewalk does, in no way, benefit from my current monetary situation as a financially strapped, would-be customer?" To which several hypothetical physical object scenarios were proposed akin to him showing up at a car dealership, asking to borrow a car for which payment would be made once the funds had been acquired; perhaps from a legal settlement garnered through the talent of an ambulance chasing attorney after the car, itself, had been destroyed in an accident, through no fault of our would-be victim/customer/semi-professional stunt-driver. Chevrolet would, in fact, not benefit from our man's default of payment for the lovely Corvette he drove off of the lot, but, as he is keen to point out, Chevrolet, already does, in no way, benefit from the financial predicament of his downtrodden pocketbook. Chevrolet does, however, benefit from remaining in possession of the vehicle until such a time as our hero does acquire the funds because THAT is the way commerce works. At the crux of our hero's ethical dilemma is the fact, that while Project 5 performs well, it is, in no way a Corvette. It is, more-so, a collection of integrated computer code dedicated to the sole purpose of creating and/or performing musical compositions which, while meticulously crafted once, is copied after it has been created for distribution to sales outlets, where money, in the ideal world, changes hands in exchange for one's ability to install the program on their computer and churn out nothing but the very finest in droning, monotonous new-age music heard on one's local NPR station when all they really wanted was to hear the $##&ing news on a g*d $#&@ Sunday $##&ing MORNING! Additionally, it may be stipulated, that given Cakewalk's current price of $99.95 (Thanks, Cakewalk - if I'd waited JUST a little while longer, I could have saved a rather large chunk of my own change.) Project five is about $69,901.05 cheaper than a nicely loaded, modestly negotiated Z06. <snipt> It's not being released to 1000's of people on the world wide web. Would just be me and my friend lol. Kakkoii then proposes that it is HE who would be the sole beneficiary of this temporary, informal promissory arrangement, by which he could acquire Project 5. Modestly, he states that it is not his intention to distribute copies of the work and, in so doing, depriving Cakewalk of the funds it might have otherwise received from those who he might have otherwise distributed it to. It is he and he alone, who is the sole recipient of something for nothing, at all. At this juncture, I am reminded of a story about a small boy who, traveling the beach with his grand-father, sees the bulb of a Portuguese Man-of-War stuck in the sand. Concerned for the well-being of this brainless creature, he begins digging furiously. His grandfather says, "Son, what are you doing?" The boy replies, "I am digging this creature out from the sand it is stuck in to return it to the sea. Can't you see it's stranded?" "Yes." The grandfather replies. "But the beach is littered with these highly toxic, public nuisances. I don't think that putting one back into the sea is going to make that much of a difference." The boy poignantly replied, "But it makes a different to this one, Grandpa." The well-meaning child continued digging, in spite of his grand-father's incessant pleas to stop. "This is so dangerous. You don't know what you're doing. Stop, for God's sake, stop! Don't you understand, this is unwise? Why won't you listen to me?" As the boy finally unearthed the water-born creature, he flung it, as softly as he could, back into the sea, causing several of its tentacles to whip the lad in the chest and arms, sending him to the hospital where he spent nearly six hours suffering in excruciating agony. Oh, but where was I? I think I was about to introduce the logical failure inherent to Kakkoii's proposal Kakkoii's fallacious argument is that no one is harmed by his hypothetical transgression. In essence, it is a victim-less crime only made a crime by an unjust law that, is only made just when it is applied to those who, unlike Kakkoii, seek to distribute it to others who, like Kakkoii, want something for nothing, at all. Kakkoii has made an assertion that he is above the law but also above others for whom, he argues, the law should apply. Demonstrating an understanding of the principle economic forces behind software programming and replication and the laws written to facilitate those economic forces, Kakkoii asks us to make a distinction between him - a depressive, gormless loner with one friend and a psychologist, alone, and 1000 other people who really ought not to have access to this program for nothing, at all - because THAT would be stealing. Of course, what's the real moral of the story? Perhaps, when someone chimes in on an internet forum with a seemingly intractable problem for which he remains wholeheartedly obdurate in the face of rather stern, if not withering criticism, with a parody of that famous warning sign - the Intel inside logo - as his avatar, we just might have a troll in our midst. Certainly, there aren't that many naive, angst-ridden, narcissistic youths, yearning for the sort of re-parenting fundamental to an adequate understanding of the folly they've chosen to apply themselves in... ...then when one needs such attention, they're just a troll who doesn't even know they're trolling.
post edited by Wonk - 2007/08/15 10:41:07
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AT
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 12:34:11
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Kakkoii,
sure, go a head and install it. Just be sure to send me all your musical output from now until you die so I can put my name on it and release it for my own purposes. No one is getting hurt by this.
that is basically the arguement you are making.
So, if you want to be legit your friend can render or make into midi clips the work. There are plenty of free DAWs and synths out there and you can use those to collaborate with. It might be the long way around but problem solving is part of the whole make music at home scene. Learn to do it and when you can afford P5 you'll be ahead in the music game.
@
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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badbib
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 12:37:05
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Hey Kakkoii, I'm 17 too, nice to have you here  I bought P5 with some money I earned working... I just waited until I could buy it. I did like Naughtyhill, I tried the not so very much legal version until I bought the real one. don't really regret it!
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bermuda
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 13:13:28
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ORIGINAL: Kakkoii
ORIGINAL: BremenCole
Kakkoii said "I know it says not to install on others computers when installing"
Then why are you asking this question? The answer is clear, and you know it. You can rationalize and try to fool yourself into thinking it is ok, but it's not. If you as an Atheist think stealing is fine, then do it. Why do you care what people on a forum think anyway?
I understand you do not have a job right now. I, like everyone here, has been there and done that. So I guess if you wanted to wanted to watch the new football season on a 40 inch wide screen, it would be alright for you to steal one since you don't have a job?
I didn't say stealing was ok.
You obviously don't see how this isn't stealing.
To steal something, Someone has to loose something. In this situation, No one is loosing anything. Because either, i'm sharing the program with my friend. Or i'm not ever using it.
Just like burning copies of movies to watch, never buying a music CD, just burning off your friends. the producers and artists lose out. Ultimately if everybody did this with P5, then the devloper would only sell 1 unit = $99 and would go out of business. Your friend owns a licence to use the software and has no ownership of the software. that's it really. Save up yor pocket money and buy Project 5 !
post edited by bermuda - 2007/08/15 13:22:27
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cryophonik
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 13:45:17
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ORIGINAL: bermuda
Just like burning copies of movies to watch, never buying a music CD, just burning off your friends. the producers and artists lose out.
Ultimately if everybody did this with P5, then the devloper would only sell 1 unit = $99 and would go out of business.
Your friend owns a licence to use the software and has no ownership of the software.
that's it really.
Save up yor pocket money and buy Project 5 !
Well put, Bermuda. You can try to rationalize it anyway you want, but regardless of whether or not it fits your definition or interpretation of "stealing", it is illegal for you to install it, period. It's like when you were younger and wanted to do something and your parents said "NO!" You asked why not and they responded with "Because I said so." As you grew up, you started to understand that "Because I said so" really meant "Because you are too young and inexperienced to comprehend the consequences of your actions." The same principle applies here: no one on this forum understands the full impact that software piracy has on the industry, Cakewalk, or its community of users, but we know enough to know that it's not good. Most of us don't even take the time to read and understand the entire End Users License Agreement. We simply check the boxes that indicate that we've read and understand the agreement and accept it as Cakewalk saying to us: "Because I said so." edit: typ0
post edited by cryophonik - 2007/08/15 13:55:46
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naughtyhill
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 15:34:48
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ORIGINAL: badbib
Hey Kakkoii, I'm 17 too, nice to have you here
I bought P5 with some money I earned working... I just waited until I could buy it.
I did like Naughtyhill, I tried the not so very much legal version until I bought the real one.
don't really regret it!
Haven't used a "try before buy" for P5. That's how damn good it is.
post edited by naughtyhill - 2007/08/15 15:42:44
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syrath
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 15:53:49
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Im with AT in this. Put yourself into the shoes of Cakewalk. You are a performer who has made a few tracks in Project5, you now sell those tracks. You have cut your record deal, and for every sale you get , 2 or more people benefit from the sale of one copy. You just got your royalty payment cut in half. For a struggling musician , this could mean the difference between making your next album, or just giving up and being labelled a failure.
Now imagine yourself in this situation, does it now appear morally right to just copy that track, or that piece of software to your friend.
Where IP is concerned its a difficult balance, however looking at it from this point of view, every musician deserves to profit from their work, whats so different from software developers doing the same thing. Ultimately there are options for everyone in the world of DAW software, from the broke to the uber rich. Sometimes you get a gem in the rough and sometimes you get a bad expensive program. There are plenty of examples in either.
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jmeier
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 16:19:29
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just to play my eternal devil's advocate position, the problem is that the used cd industry is also taking money from record companies and artists. but if you start saying people cannot buy and sell a physical product you start to upend all property laws and the rights of the purchaser. for people who sell college textbooks, for example, buybacks severely erode sales (the second year of a textbook edition typically realizes only about 60% of the first year's sales). the costs of the used textbook industry for publishers are enormous, and they pass the cost on to students. now publishers have ramped up the revision rate so every three years there's a new edition. the question is, who is being immoral here, the publisher or the student? or both? or your school bookstore that charges an enormous markup above what the publisher asks for, and then also recoups money on buybacks? i guess my point is that saying, "well, now the artist/producer/record company is out some cash so you shouldn't do it," can't be taken as hard and fast either unless you think sales of used cds/books/dvds etc. are also a moral failure. somehow software companies in the u.s. have rewritten ownership rules altogether and claim that they don't sell software per se, but rather lease it. i do think this is a very complex issue and just because companies want a certain mode of behavior doesn't mean they've got an unqualified right to it from an ethical point of view. what if they put in fixed subscription periods in the software so it wouldn't work once a new edition is out? that would ensure that you have to update and would therefore ensure they get more money for their efforts. even if they could do that legally (and i think they can) it's a little odd in terms of property rights because all your old files you produced yourself would now be worthless to you. i guess a software company has to make those decisions and live with them. i still don't think you should use that other guy's software, btw, because i think you've indicated that you know perfectly well that it's not right, you're just fishing for anyone to support that point of view. now to me, the most irrefutable argument is the one stewart brings up--there are free alternatives, so it's not like you can't make music without p5, you can. so it's not a question of a need at any level (again, you're not talking about bread here), it's just that you want this particular thing for making music. i can't think of a reason that undermines that yet.
post edited by jmeier - 2007/08/15 16:27:22
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Ognis
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 16:33:49
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Another way to look at it is.... Hardware, like say a hard disk mixer/recorder, has 16, 24, etc tracks in which you can record into, and save your songs, mix down, bla, bla, bla. Most software aps do midi, which would just replace the hardware synths you would of used on the hardware recorder/mixer. But, lets forget hardware synths, and midi for a second, which eliminates that aspect from both sides (hardware & software). So we would be left with the hard disk recorder/mixer (hardware), and Sonar (software). Both do the same thing, & both come with sevral effects built right in. Now, example 1. Software. Software is "made" one time. It is then copied to disc, and sold. Example 2. Hardware. Hardware is "made", and remade from scratch on every single unit. Wire, boards, converters, buttons, sliders, lcd screens, lights, all have to be made, and put together, every single time one is made. Whereas software, as I said before, is just "copied" to disc and sold. So... both have the cost of dev, but it costs far, far more to "make" the hardware, than the software. However, when you buy that hardware mixer/recorder, you own it. If you want to lend it to a friend, give it to a bum, or even rent it out to people, to make some exra money, you can do so. That will in no way be illegal. But, insted of buying that hard disc recorder, say you bought Sonar. Well, that cannot happen for one, as you don't buy Sonar, you simply buy a licence to use Sonar. So, say you need to let your bassist use Sonar, to record his basslines, you will have to either go to him, with your computer, or have him come to your computer. You, and only you can use it, forever - till the end of time  So, you have hardware, that costs far more to make, that you can own, and do whatever you want with, or you have on the other hand, software, which costs nothing more than disc duplication to make, and you are stuck with every restriction you can imagine, or it's illegal  (again, I know it costs money to dev the software, but so does hardware, so I'm offseting that cost, and not including it.) So look at it however you wish, but it's just something to think about.
post edited by Ognis - 2007/08/15 16:43:49
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jmeier
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 16:42:00
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good point ognis. i think this might be why so many music software companies are going into the mixed hardware-software model. look at how many physical products cakewalk is now offering, ditto native instruments. the physical hardware tie-in eliminates the ease of replication and also acts as a dongle (cf. kore and guitar rig from native instruments), so ownership is a lot simpler to navigate.
ableton is taking an alternative route and giving away a crippled version of their software with hardware, and then charging you for upgrades. apparently (i don't use cracks so i don't know) there are few cracks of ableton because of their reliance on that method of distribution.
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syrath
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 17:52:35
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While I understand what Ognis is getting at, make the following comparison. How much would it cost to recreate Sonar in a hardware model (unlimited audio and midi tracks, capable of running multiple synthesizers coming with a top quality analog compresser as well as a range of studio quality effect units). Edit - Think multiple protools rigs , along with top quality rackmount hardware, along with some quality hardware equivalent instruments. Ill bet you wouldnt have any change left from more than $100,000 +. Offset this against the cost of Sonar and a computer and I think you will find that the hardware equivalent is much, much more expensive and makes more profit per unit than one Sonar licence costs. This is where the hardware anology falls down.
post edited by syrath - 2007/08/15 19:09:23
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jimack
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 18:48:11
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You cannot judge me over a discussion about 0 & 1's written on a persons hard drive. Kakkoii, I'm sure you're a nice young man. But just the fact that you've made a statement that reduces the hard work and efforts of many people down to "0 &1's" tells me that you have much to learn about life, truth, and ethics. I truly hope you can buy Project 5 and I hope you make some wonderful music with it that will make many people happy. Best of luck.
-- Jim _____________________ Sonar 7 PE, P5 v2.5, 3.4Ghz P4, 2GB RAM, MAudio 2496PCI, Event TR6, PodXT, Yamaha S90, Hammond XK-C3, MAudio Axiom 61, Gibson Les Paul Custom, Gretsch 5296, Fender Strat, Larrivee D03R, Martin D12-28, Martin D16-R, etc
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wetdentist
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 19:11:57
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i really enjoyed reading through this topic. but i really wish i could install the DVD of p5 i bought for my PC onto my laptop for live performance and vacations to Vermont legally
3.5 Ghz AMD 6-Core/16 gigs RAM, Roland Quad-Capture, Win 10, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Komplete 10, z3ta+, Z3TA+ 2, Rapture, Maschine 2.7 (MKI & Jam), Melodyne 4 Studio, Ozone 4, Jam Origin MIDI Guitar 2, Schecter Damien Elite, Fender Sonoran w/TronicalTune Plus installed, etc go here to hear Wet Dentist (2000-2016 RIP) my new sounds: The Das Kaput
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jimack
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 19:55:08
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You can. The Cakewalk EULA allows for you to install their software on more than one machine - providing both machines are yours and you don't use them both simultaneously.
post edited by jimack - 2007/08/15 20:15:04
-- Jim _____________________ Sonar 7 PE, P5 v2.5, 3.4Ghz P4, 2GB RAM, MAudio 2496PCI, Event TR6, PodXT, Yamaha S90, Hammond XK-C3, MAudio Axiom 61, Gibson Les Paul Custom, Gretsch 5296, Fender Strat, Larrivee D03R, Martin D12-28, Martin D16-R, etc
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Kakkoii
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 20:59:00
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ORIGINAL: jmeier
i should probably be more specific about my points here.
ORIGINAL: Kakkoii
I would like to point out the reason why I can't get a job right now. I can't because I have slipped into clinical depression over the last year and a half. And have become very suicidal and depressed. I spend all my days at home, Because it keeps me from socializing, and makes me feel like the ugliest person in the world. It's being worked on with my psychologist, but it's a very hard struggle.
right, been there done that, as have most 16 year olds since the APA definition of depression is so broad you could drive a truck through it. you're clearly using it as an excuse, which i doubt any therapist would condone, because it just encourages you to cling to the diagnostic label as a justification for what you're doing. one of the key elements of the depressive mindset is blaming everything on external forces--you can challenge that assumption you're making, and there is a fairly large body of research that taking responsibility for your life really can help you get out of the depressive mindset. moreover, i don't know why being depressed would entitle one to any particular economic privileges when it comes to music software. you do have a computer and an internet connection, so you can't be that bad off; it's not like you're talking about a loaf of bread to feed your family. this seems irrelevant and intellectually sloppy to bring in as a point.
The situation here, people really need to think about a little more. There HAS TO BE a loss for something to be stolen. That is the fact of stealing. Whether it is stealing someones heart with you're good looks, or taking a diamond from a jewelry store.
see, now here's the problem--you're making an insistent and uniform definition of stealing when in reality, most people would recognize that stealing can take many different forms and asserting with capitals what the essential elements of a definition of a concept doesn't necessarily make it so. i can think of situations where theft obviously can occur without demonstrable "loss" (e.g., you take something that someone never uses) or where the loss is not in common physical terms of leeching off someone's internet connection or stealing cable, but where you really are putting a strain on a system used by someone else. you should at least concede that there is an argument that theft does not necessarily need to involve physical loss.
in sum, rather than making these backfill arguments, why not just admit that you're not morally perfect? deal with it. no one is, you might as well be honest with yourself about where you're probably crossing a line.
And they're is really nothing wrong with sharing a program between two friends. If I go into a restaurant and buy 1 meal, and share it with my friend, instead of buying a second one, Am I stealing from the restaurant?
this has quite a few holes in it. first, you assert there is nothing wrong with sharing a program between two friends, whereas others differ in opinion. to move the debate forward you'd need to introduce new information or arguments. and as far as sharing a meal, plenty of buffet restaurants do have a policy against sharing food, in which case it really would be stealing by any definition (loss of property occurs) to share food.
I did not explain my depression thoroughly, You merely assumed it was caused by outside forces. You have no idea how bad mine is. It's not that typical one teens get where they sit in they're room and listen to ****ty music. Mine is caused from dwelling on life to much, and coming to a realization. I have become very self conscious, more then the average teen. I feel so bad about the way I look, that I can't bare to be in public. All my hobbies, I have lost interest in. Nothing really amuses me anymore. And I really do just feel like dying every day. I see nothing to really live for. But I did not say I should get a program free cause of my depression. I only talked about my depression as the reason why I can't get a job right now. And you don't know where I live. Yes I have a computer, But it's around 7 years old. Yes I have internet, But that's part of our phone bill. I live in a trailer park with my mom,sister,brother. My mom doesn't have 100$ to spend on a program, That I might not even continue using. Because my main focus is on ART not music. Because art is what I am already good at. Music is just something I'm passionate about and like to do on the side. i can think of situations where theft obviously can occur without demonstrable "loss" (e.g., you take something that someone never uses) or where the loss is not in common physical terms of leeching off someone's internet connection or stealing cable, but where you really are putting a strain on a system used by someone else. you should at least concede that there is an argument that theft does not necessarily need to involve physical loss. When did I say it was physical loss? I had only said a LOSS not a physical one. Those ones you described, They're is a loss. Bandwidth is being taken, And the item that a person never uses, Is still they're item, So taking it would be stealing. But taking something that isn't owned by anyone, such as a piece of candy wrapper off the ground, isn't. Because they're is no owner, So thus no loss to be had, Because the loss has already happened. This discussion is such a simple thing. They're truly is no loss in sharing a program between two friends, for entertainment purposes. I wouldn't be creating records and selling them. It would merely be for fun. I created this thread out of one of my bored impulse moments. I sometimes don't think before I act. I only came back to reply to this one post, due to it being a judgment of my mental state. Bye everyone, Have fun discussing this issue, But please leave me out of it now, Thank you.
post edited by Kakkoii - 2007/08/15 21:09:01
"Don't hate thee who cast the first stone. But thee who continues to cast stones." -Me
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Ognis
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 21:23:47
(permalink)
edit. this is an offical forum.
post edited by Ognis - 2007/08/15 22:19:26
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wetdentist
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 22:56:44
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really?? i am? huh. sweet
3.5 Ghz AMD 6-Core/16 gigs RAM, Roland Quad-Capture, Win 10, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Komplete 10, z3ta+, Z3TA+ 2, Rapture, Maschine 2.7 (MKI & Jam), Melodyne 4 Studio, Ozone 4, Jam Origin MIDI Guitar 2, Schecter Damien Elite, Fender Sonoran w/TronicalTune Plus installed, etc go here to hear Wet Dentist (2000-2016 RIP) my new sounds: The Das Kaput
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RobertB
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/15 23:17:33
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Sure enough WD,
As strict as the EULA appears, they realize you may have to work on more than one machine, and your license to use the product extends to where you are. Still room for the honor system, even with all the legality.
My Soundclick Page SONAR Professional, X3eStudio,W7 64bit, AMD Athlon IIx4 2.8Ghz, 4GB RAM, 64bit, AKAI EIE Pro, Nektar Impact LX61,Alesis DM6,Alesis ControlPad,Yamaha MG10/2,Alesis M1Mk2 monitors,Samson Servo300,assorted guitars,Lava Lamp Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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stuz719
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/16 16:44:05
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ORIGINAL: Kakkoii
This discussion is such a simple thing. They're truly is no loss in sharing a program between two friends, for entertainment purposes. I wouldn't be creating records and selling them. It would merely be for fun.
(Emphasis added). Best laugh I've had in ages. Kakkoii - if you are reading this, here's a piece of advice. And I really do mean it sincerely. Think about what you are saying here. If you wrote a piece of software and it took you 100 hours, and you sold licences to use it for $100, and 1,000 people wanted it, you would be have an income of 1,000 * $100 = $100,000. Hey, $1,000 an hour sounds pretty good to me! But now just suppose that every other one of those 1,000 people said to themselves: "You know what, $100 is more than I can really afford right now... so I'll just share my friend's copy, because it's just for fun and there's no loss in it." Now your income if 500 * $100 = $50,000 - still $500 an hour for your hard work in creating the software, but only HALF what you should have... What incentive have you got to carry on developing software when you're only getting half what it's worth? Hopefully now you can see that there truly is a loss here.
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bermuda
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/16 16:57:13
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Kakkoii
ORIGINAL: jmeier
i should probably be more specific about my points here.
ORIGINAL: Kakkoii
I would like to point out the reason why I can't get a job right now. I can't because I have slipped into clinical depression over the last year and a half. And have become very suicidal and depressed. I spend all my days at home, Because it keeps me from socializing, and makes me feel like the ugliest person in the world. It's being worked on with my psychologist, but it's a very hard struggle.
right, been there done that, as have most 16 year olds since the APA definition of depression is so broad you could drive a truck through it. you're clearly using it as an excuse, which i doubt any therapist would condone, because it just encourages you to cling to the diagnostic label as a justification for what you're doing. one of the key elements of the depressive mindset is blaming everything on external forces--you can challenge that assumption you're making, and there is a fairly large body of research that taking responsibility for your life really can help you get out of the depressive mindset. moreover, i don't know why being depressed would entitle one to any particular economic privileges when it comes to music software. you do have a computer and an internet connection, so you can't be that bad off; it's not like you're talking about a loaf of bread to feed your family. this seems irrelevant and intellectually sloppy to bring in as a point.
The situation here, people really need to think about a little more. There HAS TO BE a loss for something to be stolen. That is the fact of stealing. Whether it is stealing someones heart with you're good looks, or taking a diamond from a jewelry store.
see, now here's the problem--you're making an insistent and uniform definition of stealing when in reality, most people would recognize that stealing can take many different forms and asserting with capitals what the essential elements of a definition of a concept doesn't necessarily make it so. i can think of situations where theft obviously can occur without demonstrable "loss" (e.g., you take something that someone never uses) or where the loss is not in common physical terms of leeching off someone's internet connection or stealing cable, but where you really are putting a strain on a system used by someone else. you should at least concede that there is an argument that theft does not necessarily need to involve physical loss.
in sum, rather than making these backfill arguments, why not just admit that you're not morally perfect? deal with it. no one is, you might as well be honest with yourself about where you're probably crossing a line.
And they're is really nothing wrong with sharing a program between two friends. If I go into a restaurant and buy 1 meal, and share it with my friend, instead of buying a second one, Am I stealing from the restaurant?
this has quite a few holes in it. first, you assert there is nothing wrong with sharing a program between two friends, whereas others differ in opinion. to move the debate forward you'd need to introduce new information or arguments. and as far as sharing a meal, plenty of buffet restaurants do have a policy against sharing food, in which case it really would be stealing by any definition (loss of property occurs) to share food.
I did not explain my depression thoroughly, You merely assumed it was caused by outside forces. You have no idea how bad mine is. It's not that typical one teens get where they sit in they're room and listen to ****ty music.
Mine is caused from dwelling on life to much, and coming to a realization. I have become very self conscious, more then the average teen. I feel so bad about the way I look, that I can't bare to be in public. All my hobbies, I have lost interest in. Nothing really amuses me anymore. And I really do just feel like dying every day. I see nothing to really live for.
But I did not say I should get a program free cause of my depression. I only talked about my depression as the reason why I can't get a job right now.
And you don't know where I live. Yes I have a computer, But it's around 7 years old. Yes I have internet, But that's part of our phone bill. I live in a trailer park with my mom,sister,brother. My mom doesn't have 100$ to spend on a program, That I might not even continue using. Because my main focus is on ART not music. Because art is what I am already good at. Music is just something I'm passionate about and like to do on the side.
i can think of situations where theft obviously can occur without demonstrable "loss" (e.g., you take something that someone never uses) or where the loss is not in common physical terms of leeching off someone's internet connection or stealing cable, but where you really are putting a strain on a system used by someone else. you should at least concede that there is an argument that theft does not necessarily need to involve physical loss.
When did I say it was physical loss?
I had only said a LOSS not a physical one. Those ones you described, They're is a loss. Bandwidth is being taken, And the item that a person never uses, Is still they're item, So taking it would be stealing. But taking something that isn't owned by anyone, such as a piece of candy wrapper off the ground, isn't. Because they're is no owner, So thus no loss to be had, Because the loss has already happened.
This discussion is such a simple thing. They're truly is no loss in sharing a program between two friends, for entertainment purposes. I wouldn't be creating records and selling them. It would merely be for fun.
I created this thread out of one of my bored impulse moments. I sometimes don't think before I act.
I only came back to reply to this one post, due to it being a judgment of my mental state.
Bye everyone, Have fun discussing this issue, But please leave me out of it now, Thank you.
I'm sorry to hear about the clinically depressed diagnoses. Hopefully your phsycologist has recommended pharmaceutical as well as discursive treatments. Wellbutrin, Prozac, Cipramil and many others can help you back to finding your normal self. You also need to face fears, learn how to deal with the things issues and cyclical thinking that put led you to clinical depression. Good luck on your journey. Just know you are not alone in the world.
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naughtyhill
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RE: Am I aloud?
2007/08/16 17:20:38
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Seriously, quit the shrink and start living. The only way a developer does not lose, is when testdriving software illegally. After that, if the software suits your needs, buy it. Did I mention I hate Steinberg? Keep on smoking!
post edited by naughtyhill - 2007/08/16 17:35:47
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