Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix?

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Rain
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2012/12/18 21:51:38 (permalink)

Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix?

It's this case where you get the balance pretty much in the right place, every instrument is pretty audible and it should be relatively simple to polish the mix and further refine it.

BUT there's one chord in the chorus where the bass and guitar totally clash and everything goes wooooomf for a few seconds... Automating the levels just won't work, neither will compression. If you EQ it all out, the rest of the song just seems to fall apart.

I admit that in my naivety, I've always thought of EQs as something fairly static, which required you to find the best compromise that would work throughout the song. Except maybe turning on a hi shelf and cutting a few db's here and there at specific moments when things get too busy, to make room.

But today was my first attempts at systematically automating a particular band to tame a specific chord throughout an entire song. I was after that D flat on the guitar bus like white on rice. A bit of compression, and, voilà.

It works, and they say, whatever works... But it nags me every time I hear that chord in the song, like: you fraud! you've taken the easy way out, you've cheated.


Is it or am I being way too naive? You guys use tricks like that?

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19 Replies Related Threads

    bapu
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/18 21:57:40 (permalink)
    I can overuse EQ with the best of them.
    #2
    SongCraft
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/18 22:09:00 (permalink)
    I've had to do that but not often. It be that 'one' note that woofs and yes that animal needs to be tamed. 

     
     
    #3
    backwoods
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/18 22:12:08 (permalink)
    One bad chord over an entire song sticks out like a sore thumb- esp if in the first 20 seconds.

    Phil Spector spent 10 hours trying to get one Ramones chord right.

    Terminate with extreme prejudice.

     
    #4
    sharke
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/18 23:02:00 (permalink)
    When I watched Brian Lee White's EQ and Filters video course on Lynda.com I'm pretty sure there was a whole section on EQ automation, where he said it was common practice to automate EQ on that kind of fine level. I've seen people automate vocal volume on a syllable by syllable basis, so why not EQ? I guess it depends how much work you want to put into it. Sometimes I'm too lazy!

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    #5
    Middleman
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/18 23:05:15 (permalink)
    You need start thinking about transitional EQ. Automate the problem spot with EQ to meet the needs of the track. Static EQ doesn't always work. Ugh, see that Sharke just covered it.

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    craigb
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 00:57:42 (permalink)
    You can't have that clash so I would try to notch them so they intertwine without stepping on each other.  You only need to do this for that one area so feel free to try a few experiments.

     
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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 01:33:49 (permalink)
    It still may be worth finding out why they clash. Is the bass player playing the right note? I had a situation like this and it turned out to be a wrong note from the bass.

    Could you steal the same chord or bass note from the same place in another chorus and use it there.

    Automation of the offending sounds just for the duration of the problem.

    I have dropped out a bass note altogether in a situation like this and it cured the problem and was not missed or it was not noticed.

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    #8
    craigb
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 01:59:32 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans


    It still may be worth finding out why they clash. Is the bass player playing the right note? I had a situation like this and it turned out to be a wrong note from the bass. 


    Or, if Bapu's playing bass, did the guitarist play a low Am?

     
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    tbosco
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 08:15:46 (permalink)
    I'm with Jeff...  is it not possible to play a different bass note and eradicate the EQ problem by not having a problem in the first place?  If the EQ ain't right, the woooomf ain't right, the harmony ain't right, wouldn't there be peace in the valley by playing a harmonically pleasing note?

    Just curious.

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    Bub
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 09:20:01 (permalink)
    Mr. McCue revealed one of his techniques regarding bass in another thread, maybe it would help here.

    He runs his bass tracks through pitch correction. I think (iirc) he said he used Melodyne.

    Something about the bass sitting in the mix better when he does that. It made sense in the thread. Just did a search on Google and I can't find the thread, sorry.

    IIRC, it had something to do with the bass notes being slightly out of tune and clashing with other instruments. Sounds like it may help in the case.

    I've been wanting to try it when I get my DAW hooked back up.

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    Bub
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 09:22:01 (permalink)
    As for EQ Automation ... I do that a lot, especially on my vocals and acoustic guitar.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 09:31:59 (permalink)
    If it's just a single flubbed bass note, you can easily isolate it into it's own clip and use V-Vocal to correct it

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    Bub
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 09:44:47 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey

    If it's just a single flubbed bass note, you can easily isolate it into it's own clip and use V-Vocal to correct it
    That would work. When I do that, I snip the note out of the clip, apply trimming just to that little snippit, then enable V-Vocal.


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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 10:16:04 (permalink)
    You gotta do what you gotta do to get it right.

    If needed... you can split the chord out as a clip and add a new track.... set up all the FX and routing the same.... then copy that clip into the new track... set the EQ or what ever FX you need to solve the clash and you should be good. 

    You do know that you can automate some of the FX as well using envelopes ...right?  

    I like the split clip new track thing and have used this very method for a number of different things.

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    Beagle
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 10:30:41 (permalink)
    if you have Melodyne Editor (not the cheap version like I have) then you can even manipulate individual notes of a chord, so even if it's the guitar, you can change notes in the guitar chord at that point.  if it's the bass that's off then as others have said, it's an easy fix with melodyne or v-vocal.

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    bapu
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 11:17:06 (permalink)
    Beagle


    if you have Melodyne Editor (not the cheap version like I have) then you can even manipulate individual notes of a chord, so even if it's the guitar, you can change notes in the guitar chord at that point.  if it's the bass that's off then as others have said, it's an easy fix with melodyne or v-vocal.

    Reece, Melodyne has difficulty on a distorted guitar, too many harmonics going on (at least for me). Now if you have a clean track and you're applying an amp sim, yeah, you can generally fix a chord. I'm assuming Rain is using his new amp though.
    #17
    Rain
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 16:43:03 (permalink)
    The bass note is actually right on spot, everything is in tune - both the guitars and the bass hit the same D flat.

    Hitting that note higher on the bass would probably make the whole thing sound a bit weak and wouldn't work in that context. Lower, well I'd need a 5 strings. Plus, the guitars and bass need to come together at that particular point.

    The bass all by itself works relatively fine - nothing unusual. Same for the guitar - I mean there is a bit more energy/resonance on that chord, but it's not unless you combine both bass and guitar that it all goes woooomf. 


    Because that D flat sounds a bit fuller on the bass and the guitars have more resonance in the low mids. 

    I have a hi pass on the guitars set at around 120 IIRC, and a dip in the bass somewhere between 120 and 200. That was the best "compromise" to make room for both and that balance works well for the song - but for that one chord.

    But the more I think about it, the more I realize that the song probably calls for spot automation, structurally speaking.

    The verses are very sparse and consist of drums, bass, and a harpsichord - so the bass needs to fill quite a bit of space to glue everything.

    The bridge and chorus are much more dense - bass shifts to 16th notes, the double bass drum pattern kicks in and the guitars - 4 tracks of hi gain stuff.

    Actually, it's almost surprising that I managed to find a basic static EQ set up for the bass which would (almost) work throughout the song. :s


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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/19 16:50:34 (permalink)
    This is interesting Rain especially if all the notes and chords etc are correct. It seems like it is on of those things where there must be some harmonics and energy present in both the guitar and bass that on their own sound perfectly fine but together are creating some extra energy somewhere.

    Just had a thought too. Put a spectrum, analyser on both of those things individually and together as well. It might give a clue as to where the excess energy is coming from.

    Sounds like spot EQ automation is going to be the answer in this case.

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    Rain
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    Re:Am I taking the easy way out w/ this mix? 2012/12/20 04:18:47 (permalink)
    Yep. Well they do sound fine on their own and manageable in context if one of them is muted

    I was familiar w/ the occasional louder note on the bass (perceived loudness), but in this case, it's one of those occasions where both the guitar (or I should probably say amp/cab) and bass exhibit the most density in the same spot. 

    Eq'ing the bass wouldn't fix but a few seconds sweeping between 160 and 200 on the guitar and the oooomf vanished. 

    I'm guessing that using a different amp or cab or maybe just a different pick up - or more or less gain - could have resulted in something entirely different.


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