bobernaut
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Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
Hello again, and thanks for reading this, I appreciate it! I recently tried to post a similar question here but I can't find it, so if this is a repeat for you, I apologize. I was playing around with mastering the other day and had pulled a professionally mastered track into the template and then put mine in below it-you know, for referencing. I noticed some things when I did this. The pro track took up nearly all of the track lane while mine took up a little more than half. The pro track had tons of narrow spikes all over the place while mine was closer to a semi-solid block with some much shorter spikes. The pro track showed that it was heavily clipping (red) right from the start of the tune and all the way through it. Mine does not show any clipping at all. My main question here is, what are they (pros) doing that I am not doing in order to take up the entire track lane? I mean, that from the very bottom of the lane up to the very top, there is information but not in a solid block. The pro music style is similar to mine-heavy everything. I have tried to load a picture of this to show you but it isn't taking for some reason-can't you use imgur for this? I would be happy to upload a picture if someone tells me more about how to do this, but I imagine the legends around here know exactly what I am talking about with the spikes and blocks. I would greatly appreciate any information that you can give me on this question. Thank you for your time and I am looking forward to learning more about this from you all. bob
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/12 07:35:26
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Upload your pictures to imgur Get the link code and paste it into this forum using the Insert / Edit Image button Are you sure your 2 tracks are showing the same scaling resolution? To change it, click & drag up/down on the scale between the track header & the clips pane
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tlw
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/12 11:39:24
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2017/05/12 13:24:31
At an educated guess, the commercial track has been heavily compressed then brick-wall limited and level boosted to minimise the dynamic range and maximise the perceived loudness. In other words, the RMS loudness is very near the peak loudness. This is done to make the track as loud as possible all the way through so it doesn't sound quieter than other loudness maximised tracks.
It's the same reason why the advertisements are often much louder than the programmes on TV. Loudness maximised so you can't ignore them.
Whether this is a good idea or not is a subject for debate. Many think it isn't, others think it's a commercial necessity because everyone else does it. And some just want everyhting louder than everything else all the time.
Doing an internet search for "loudness wars" might be useful.
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dcumpian
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/12 12:17:13
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You can get close using just limiters and compression, but to get something really loud, and still maintain some semblance of a living, breathing track, you'll want to: 1) Compress in parallel. Don't push the compressor too hard. 2) Use a clipper to clip the highest peaks. Again, don't push it too hard and use a soft curve. 3) Start stacking limiters to raise the final level where you want it to be. Each limiter should add somewhere between 3-5db of gain. Again, don't push each one too hard. I find mixing different limiters can give really good results. Regards, Dan
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AT
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/12 14:08:55
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There are all kinds of techniques to raise the vol, but if you are doing home stuff you can get close. The ideas above are good. If you really want to get it loud you will need to go into each track and find the "best" means to raise each track, then remix, then go back and limit/compress/vol automate the entire mix. And have a good ear and tools and monitoring system so you catch any unwanted distortion. That is good work, if you get paid for it. ;-) It is probably best to just raise your own files close. Your example of being 1/2 the height of a commercial pressing means you aren't mixing hot enough. Get that louder and your limiting/etc. on the entire track will sound more natural and less strained and louder. I'd rather get 90% there and have the song sound like I want but a little less loud than loud and bad. Get it loud enough and let your listener use their vol control when they go from Metallica to your song. That is what it is there for.
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dlion16
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/12 14:14:54
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You could also use a loudness maximizer like the free mundt on the master bus…
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bobernaut
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/13 08:13:15
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http://imgur.com/a/0pfWa http://imgur.com/a/EGovd Okay, now let's see if this works! Thanks for your advice guys, I will give it all a shot, but I have a couple of questions still- Hopefully, you are now able to see the "clipped" screen shot. Is this clipped-massively-as it appears or am I not measuring this correctly? I thought that going into the red, especially this much, was an end-of-the-world thing in the music biz and no one ever did it... This record is platinum I would guess (not Metardica). Also, I am sure that I was probably using the T-racks Classic Clipper on this one. Is the misuse of this plug possibly causing some of my problem? Is that why I don't have the big spikes-because I cut them off? I don't know if that's a visible thing and I never thought to LOOK at it, just hear it. Thanks decumpian, for this idea. AT, if I mix hot, aren't I going to have to do some clipping to achieve that? Also, I appreciate your advice on finding the "best" means...-makes sense. Thanks Bristol J, tlw, and dlion16. I am going to give all your ideas a try. I hope you guys can see the pictures this time, it would help, wouldn't it? Looking forward to your wisdom-lay it on me! And many thanks! bob
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dcumpian
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/14 13:11:08
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Never mix hot. If you do, you will never be able to do anything with the mix to polish it at the mastering stage without squashing all the life out of it. In your second image, it looks like you have a limiter on the track with no gain on it. I find it is best to get a great mix first, mixed at about -10 to -6 db, with peaks up to -3. I don't add limiters to a mix until after I am happy with the mix. Regards, Dan
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Cactus Music
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/14 16:58:38
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What I see looking at the image is: TOP: normal recording, RMS nice and loud not overly compress some dynamics and headroom Bottom- Over compressed track, no dynamics, not very loud
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tlw
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/14 21:41:54
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Looks like if you applied any compression/limiting you didn't use the compressor's output gain control to compensate for the volume lost at the compression stage.
Compression, or limiting which is an extreme form of compression, reduces the dynamic range of audio. It does this by making the loud bits quieter and quiet bits louder. Which usually means losing overall volume, and the greater the compression the greater the loss of volume.. So that volume needs adding back, which is what the output gain control on compressors and limiters is for.
Overdoing compression or limiting makes the music lose its punch because it's all at the same volume, and can cause other problems such as raising the noise floor to the point it's very noticable, often resulting in what sounds like breathing where there should be silence. So it's something that needs to be used with a little care to get the best results. The first question should always be "does this need compressing at all?"
Mastering limiting is similar, but it should be the last thing done to audio to prepare it for distribution. There the idea is to ensure the volume never, ever goes into digital clipping while allowing the music to still have the dynamic range you want it to have. So the final limiter's output should never be set to zero dB but always a little less than that to be on the safe side. Digital clipping is nothing like e.g. guitar amp or mixer channel clipping by the way, it's just a horrible, very loud grating noise that you'll know is just completely wrong if you ever hear it.
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bobernaut
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/15 09:40:39
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Hi everyone and thanks for everything, I appreciate it. A couple of things- I loaded up something from about 1 year ago when I was just sort of trying out different things. I actually probably picked a pretty bad master and just stuck it in there for comparison. I knew I had better so I went back into the archives, so to speak, and found more recent one's and they do fill up the track pane. However, I still do not have the same dynamics ( I think that's right), as the pro tune. They (spikes/peaks) are much better but I am still lacking in overall dynamics, meaning, I don't have very distinguished peaks and lows (if that's right). It isn't a sausage, as they call it, but not as similar to the pro song as I would like to have. So, while your advice is wonderful, which it is, I am wondering what causes the ups and downs (spikes and lows) and how do I get them? Is it that I am not compressing well? Is it something which is accomplished in the recording? All of my stuff is heavy from start to finish and I actually am trying to make it that way, is that why it all looks almost the same? Because there are no dynamics really? I wish I could figure this out and I would be a fairly happy person. I sure hope some of you understand what I am trying to say here. I think my songs sound pretty good and balanced and I have taken very good care to record as cleanly and as loudly, but not too loud, as I should. I feel as if I am missing something that might be simple and that maybe I didn't go to school that day and missed it. By the way, no comment on the pro clipping screen capture? Why is the pro song in the red if it isn't clipping? Hope someone takes a crack at it. And once again, thanks for all your replies, I am putting them all to use. bob
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/15 10:29:03
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There is zero evidence of clipping on the pro track, although the absence of any scaling/metering makes it a bit difficult to judge with 100% accuracy.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/15 11:14:45
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bobernaut By the way, no comment on the pro clipping screen capture? Why is the pro song in the red if it isn't clipping? Hope someone takes a crack at it.
I don't see any clipping, I see the track maxed out though to 0db which is common with most masters. You can clearly see there still some nice transients. The spikes are what is causing the meter to reach 0db In the comparison shot side by side. you mix looks like its been compressed quite a bit. If this just your mix and not your master, I would go back and remix it. Remove some compression. the wave appears to be extremely fluent with no spikes at all (no dynamics popping through). If this is your master than its apparent the master is not loud enough. Even if it is your master, you should still be seeing some transients. Another thing to consider is your zoom of the Wave form. In order to completely compare to signals exactly, the Zoom on the vertical needs to be exactly the same. So as long as you didn't mess with the zoom on your track settings this is what I would conclude (what I stated above).
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bobernaut
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/16 05:31:57
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Thanks for your reply, chuckebaby, I always appreciate your input...hugely. Thanks for your explanation on the clipping (which wasn't really clipping). I can't quite figure out what you mean by "fluent", though but I am guessing that it is not a good thing. Thank you for your pointer about compression. I will go back on a better mix and cut/alter compression just to see if that produces any spikes. As far as I know, I am not using a great deal of compression nor cranking it too much but obviously there is something amiss here and now, thanks to you, I have a good place to start-which is what I wanted. Thanks for everyone's replies and of course my main man for more fantastic assistance! Thanks for your help again, Bristol J.....from the UK! bob
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mudgel
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/16 19:34:20
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Of course your musical arrangement will also have something to do with the dynamics of the music.
If you don't play with any variation in volume you won't get any peaks or troughs showing either.
The peaks and troughs are the dynamics created by an interplay of the various parts of your arrangement. No change in level you won't have dynamics.
This can of course be created as the others have suggested by using compression and or limiting in the wrong way and in the wrong place, eg a track instead of the master or vice versa. Or wrong compressor settings. You could change attack to be a bit slower letting more of the signal in early before compression just as an example.
But back to my point it's always to make sure that you're arrangement isn't too full all the time. When your musical parts have room, occupying various non competing frequencies you'll have less need for heavy handed manipulation allowing you to get a good mix just using the faders and then using the other tools to polish the sound. HTH
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bobernaut
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/18 06:56:48
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Thanks for your reply mudgel, that's pretty much what I was thinking as well (arrangement, more "empty" parts). I always have something happening somewhere in my tunes and its really difficult for me to dumb it down for the sake of the mix but I have been cutting more and more out lately in an attempt to follow this line of thinking. I keep telling myself, "Beatles-vocal, guitar, bass drum..." but that just is not my style and I really dislike anything that simplistic although, without question, this is the key to success simply because all the great rock, country, pop and more songs use this formula. Now, for anyone still following this- I think I have discovered my "problem". It was mostly a visual thing, I think. I have made some adjustments on my track gains and normalized and presto! I now have a much more healthy-looking track visual. I then go back and adjust my track gains as I need to in order to be happy. I tried taking almost every compressor and nearly everything else off, played around with the master and nothing had changed so I went looking elsewhere. So, I am concluding that it wasn't so much an over-compression thing but more of a normalization thing along with a need to see a bigger and better picture of what I was doing. I don't notice much of a change after normalization as far as sound goes, but as far as visuals go, I do see something-which is what I was looking for. I don't know if this makes sense to you wise one's, but I am a lot more happy now with what I see, and all is well. My thanks to all of you guys, I appreciate it! Looks like AT might have been right on this one and thanks to everyone for helping-it was all gold! bob
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Cactus Music
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Re: Amount of Pro master track space versus mine
2017/05/18 15:04:13
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If your mostly using heavy distorted guitar then that can quickly max out a soundscape. Big fat synths can do the same. And it might be all low end energy which will also put you at 0 with no room for the higher frequencies to cut through. So no matter what the style of music you still need to balance out the frequencies. And notice you were using compressors when you might not have needed them. Less is best until one gets a handle on their mix.
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