Helpful ReplyAn actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar?

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SiberianKhatru59
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2017/11/29 17:31:45 (permalink)

An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar?

Just curious from the pros out there how do you guys record acoustic guitars. You use the built-in electronics of the guitar? Or do you mic them? And if you do mic them what sort of mics do you use and where would you place them?

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Karyn
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 17:39:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/11/29 18:33:58
There are two standard answers to this..
 
1) an LDC just up the fretboard from the sound hole and a distant mic for ambience.
2) Whatever works best for you when you try it...
 
 
 
3) If the player is singing at the same time... use figure 8 pattern LDCs with the null zone towards the 'other' source for separation...
 

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Cactus Music
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 17:55:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/11/29 18:35:46
I think a lot of us use both the PU and a mike and pan those. 
First it depends on the quality of the PU. A lot of under saddle PU are unbalanced, as in, some strings are louder than others. I toss those guitars or systems out and work towards having good systems on my guitars as I play live and it's important. I just got rid of a Taylor for this reason. It was the worst PU system and I should have paid closer attention when I bought it. 
 
What I have on my A& L Folk is a LR Baggs PU and I bypassed the el cheapo pre amp on that guitar. 
My Garrison has a real nice system and this time I paid attention when trying guitars. 
I run that into a Radial Tone Bone DI and that system sounds excellent. It has 2 inputs and you can set them for passive or active.  I have also ordered a TC Halicon Voice LIve Play Acoustic which is promising a better tone with it's "body Rez" feature. 
 
So To me it's worth it to spend the money on a real good PU sound first. For a lot of songs that's all I end up using and often pull back on the Mike track.
 
For a mike I prefer Small Diaphram condencers, I find my LC mikes are too boomy no matter where I put them. But a SC condenser like my CAD cm217's are perfect for me. You can even use a matched pair and the PU.
I'll record the CAD's to a stereo track and put the PU in the middle. 
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 17:57:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/11/29 18:35:43
I like to use a combination of microphones and internal pickup if available. You get the honest sound of the mic's but can also add processing or amp sims to the direct recording from the pickup. 

Regards, John 
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 18:01:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/11/29 18:35:40
Thank you for suggesting a topic that doesn't include the word "DAW" in it. We needed a break.
 
Acoustic guitars have always been a problem for me because they are acoustical instruments, and are therefore subject to the acoustical environment they're recorded in. Rooms optimized for mixing are too dead to be good environments for acoustic instruments. If you don't have a great-sounding room, you're not going to get a great-sounding acoustic guitar recording no matter how much the microphones cost or where you place them. The best you can do is make the best of what you've got.
 
If your room sounds really awful, that means eliminating it from the equation as best you can, using absorptive materials. The guitar won't sound great, but it'll sound less bad. In that situation, you'll want to get the microphone close to the instrument or use an internal pickup or contact mic if it has one. I'm not a fan of microphones inside guitars, as they sound boxy. A better solution is a directional condenser mic placed as close as feasible, pointed down the neck to approximately where the neck and body join. You have experiment to find the best place to aim the mic.
 
If your room sounds big and reverberant and doesn't have strong resonances, then you want to exploit that. That means either an omnidirectional mic positioned  a couple feet away, or a combination of cardiod condenser up close and another microphone 4-6 feet away. Ideally, the player is sitting about 1/3 of the way into the room, not in the exact center and not in a corner. If you have no choice but to be in a corner, face the center of the room and avoid pointing the mic directly at the corner.
 
Most people recommend small-diaphragm condensers, but I don't own one. However, I've gotten decent results even with cheap LDCs by taking the time to try different positions. Where you point the mic is more important than the microphone itself.
 
In a pinch, you can even use a dynamic microphone; just don't get it too close to the instrument. Some dynamics, high-end ribbons specifically, sound gorgeous on acoustic guitar, but expect to spend a grand or more if you go that route. A better approach if you're shopping is one good multi-pattern large diaphragm condenser that you can use for many purposes. 


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SiberianKhatru59
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 18:48:33 (permalink)
I ask because I am wondering if I need more gear lol

Seriously, I have a couple of Taylor guitars with the Expression 2 system in them, plus a Rode NT1a LDC and a Shure SM-58 ( I think, not home) I got for live singing.  So far I've used the internal PU only.  I've done some reading and it seems there is more than one "good" way to record acoustics and I'd like to be able to be flexible without spending a small fortune on mics lol

So I am thinking that my Rode NT-1a will work for both not only vocals, but also as a acoustic mic placed say at the 15th fret, or maybe the lower bout along with a separate track for the internal PUs? 

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jamesg1213
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 18:56:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/11/29 19:15:34
SiberianKhatru59


So I am thinking that my Rode NT-1a will work for both not only vocals, but also as a acoustic mic placed say at the 15th fret, or maybe the lower bout along with a separate track for the internal PUs? 




 
I've had some nice results using a Rode NT-1 on a James King Dreadnought acoustic, blended with a DI from the pickup.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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chuckebaby
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 18:59:49 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/11/29 19:16:00
you think correctly. The Rode NT1a LDC is perfect for Acoustic guitars.
I prefer the Rode NT 1000 to be honest. but the NT1a will do the trick.
Close Mic but not up to the hole. Back away enough to catch some of the neck.
If your hearing finger noise on the strings its not Mic position, its finger friction. Though don't point the mic at the neck.
 
Everyone does it differently but for a good acoustic guitar sound a condenser/phantom powered Mic will give it almost a warm pre amp sound.

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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 19:01:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/11/29 19:16:40
1st, find the absolute best spot in the room to record in.  If you ain't in Abbey Road, etc. that is the most important thing.  I've got one corner of my main room (mixing) room that is live enough for decent acoustic recording.  I had a singer songwriter in earlier this year and even the demo turned out good to great, even w/ one mic (backed off from the hole for vox and guitar).    A Microtech Geffel M 930 into an RND Portico II channel, which helps.  But the room and the performer are most important, then finding the right spot for the mic. 
 
Hard to do if you are recording yourself.  I've been testing VO on myself and it is a bear, esp. since nobody really likes their own voice most of the time.
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 19:04:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/11/29 19:17:13
Another thing to consider is experimentation. If you do what all the experts say and still aren't getting what you want, throw out the rule book and experiment. I've put microphones inside of guitars, hung them from the ceiling and many strange things you won't find in a book about how to record guitars. Digital is cheap so it costs very little to get creative.

Regards, John 
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panup
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 19:08:41 (permalink)
I just ended acoustic guitar + vocals recording session at my studio. Here's the last setup:
 
1. Sennheiser MD421 near 12th fret, aimed a little bit away from the soundhole.
2. DI: internal mic.
3. Stereo setup: 2 pcs AKG C414B-ULS/omni pattern in wide A/B about one meter away from the guitar.
4. Manley Reference Cartioid as vocal mic.
 
Some EQing in the desk before A/D.
 
I ended up using only Manley and the AKG's in the final mix because guitar bled in Manley so much I did not need another close mic for guitar. AKG's gave nice, natural room ambience for the guitar but also for the vocals. 
 
 
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 19:20:02 (permalink)
panup
I just ended acoustic guitar + vocals recording session at my studio. Here's the last setup:
 
1. Sennheiser MD421 near 12th fret, aimed a little bit away from the soundhole.
2. DI: internal mic.
3. Stereo setup: 2 pcs AKG C414B-ULS/omni pattern in wide A/B about one meter away from the guitar.
4. Manley Reference Cartioid as vocal mic.
 
Some EQing in the desk before A/D.
 
I ended up using only Manley and the AKG's in the final mix because guitar bled in Manley so much I did not need another close mic for guitar. AKG's gave nice, natural room ambience for the guitar but also for the vocals. 
 
 



You lost me after step two lol

But guessing you used a total of 4 external mics plus the internal pickup?

My little M-Audio Fast Track Pro (still works great) has only two inputs, I believe so this might not be possible for me.

I'll bet your recording sounded kick ass though ;)

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panup
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 20:10:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/11/29 20:39:22
> But guessing you used a total of 4 external mics plus the internal pickup?
 
Yes!  one dynamic near fretboard, two condensers to pick up the ambience. Internal mic to DI and another condenser for the vocals.
 
This time the equipment was better than the young, inexperienced singer-songwriter but he was very happy with the result and will release the recorded two tracks.  I have lots of cool gear because I own a decent recording studio. :)
post edited by panup - 2017/11/29 20:42:27
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SiberianKhatru59
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 20:39:48 (permalink)
panup
> But guessing you used a total of 4 external mics plus the internal pickup?
 
Yes!  one dynamic near fretboard, two condencers to pick up the ambience. Internal mic to DI and another condencer for the vocals.
 
This time the equipment was better than the young, inexperienced singer-songwriter but he was very happy with the result and will release the recorded two tracks.  I have lots of cool gear because I own a decent recording studio. :)



Dilly dilly!

And thanks for clarifying that!

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jpetersen
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/29 21:56:13 (permalink)
SiberianKhatru59
I ask because I am wondering if I need more gear lol


Oh, you always need more gear.
 
NT1a is very low noise, meaning you can move it further away for a more natural sound.
I record in a study surrounded by packed bookshelves. Very dead acoustically.
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hughblaney1957
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/30 01:52:35 (permalink)
For Jesus sake. Just put a Rode NT1A in front of it and hit Record.
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/30 02:20:56 (permalink)
There's some good advice about placement listed above.  If you're just beginning recording acoustic guitar I'd recommend using just one mic and record in mono.  You won't have phase issues that way.  As for mics, the Shure SM81c is a standard.  You can find them used under $300.

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Bassman002
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/30 08:56:22 (permalink)
HI:)
 
I've had very good results with 2 mics:
 
1. One on the neck directed to the hole of the guitar about 10-20 cm away from the guitar, one right of the bridge directed to the hole, about 10-20 cm away from the guitar.
Panned hardly.
 
2. Both mics left and right the head of the player directed to the guitar, quasi over the shoulders (Listening as the guitar player listens)
Panned hardly.
 
3. Just one mic in front directed to the hole, but at least 1 m away from it (belongs to the room)
 
4. A Combination of  1-3 or all together:)
 
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Moxica
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/30 09:11:57 (permalink)
I aim the mic at the neckjoint, a coupla feet away. I so happens that the "mike stand" is attached to a bookshelf (with books in it) so this is my background wall. Just don't use a microphone with obvious quality flaws. I've used a lots of more or less cheap mics with "good" results.: Røde NT2, AKG414, Shure SM57, Shure SM7b, Neumann TLM102. 
Interestingly, I find that the cheap Chinese Superlux S241 works great in this setting, and is now my favourite.
I'll give you a link, because it is unbelievingly cheap for what it delivers:
 h**ps://www.thomann.de/gb/superlux_s241.htm
 
To me, the sound of an internal/bridge mic is one of the most annoying sounds i know. ("Tick-tick-quack")
I have a few high quality acoustic guitars, and I want to hear the guitar, body and all. Not a "string signal"
post edited by Moxica - 2017/12/01 10:58:17
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joegab
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/30 09:14:22 (permalink)
2 mics for me (but you need also to consider the room in which you are playing).
 
I use a 414 and a Cascade FatHead Ribbon mic.
 
This is usually my solution and I like it.
 
I am also using a compressor before the AD....
 
Regards,
 
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/30 15:47:18 (permalink)
Moxica
I aim the mic at the neckjoint, a coupla feet away. I so happens that the "mike stand" is attached to a bookshelf (with books in it) so this is my background wall. Just don't use a microphone without obvious quality flaws. I've used a lots of more or less cheap mics with "good" results.: Røde NT2, AKG414, Shure SM57, Shure SM7b, Neumann TLM 102. 
Interestingly, I find that the cheap Chinese Superlux S241/U3 works great in this setting, and is now my favourite.
I'll give you a link, because it is unbelievingly cheap for what it delivers:
h***s://www.thomann.de/gb/superlux_s241.htm

To me, the sound of an internal/bridge mic is one of the most annoying sounds i know. ("Tick-tick-quack")
I have a few high quality acoustic guitars, and I want to hear the guitar, body and all. Not a "string signal"


Those are some great mics. 
Thanks for the heads up on the Superlux.

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dwardzala
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/30 17:24:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/12/01 13:04:49
I have a Taylor guitar and to me, the expression system for recording, doesn't do the guitar justice.  I don't even bother DI'ing it any more.  I use an LDC positioned about 1 foot away from the sound hole but turned to aim it at the 14th fret.  I think it gives a nice balance of body and strings.  Check out my song Up North in my soundcloud profile for an example.

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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/11/30 18:54:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/12/01 13:04:48
I think using a mic - live - in the room is much better than a pick-up. With any decent mic you should be able to make just about any guitar sound good. Considering you have a Taylor, I'd definitely use a live mic and not the pick-up as you will lose all the great quality of the Taylor. If you want a cool sound, use two mics and place one of them 3 feet further back than the other so you get more air and breathing room. When you are done, you will have to raise the volume up on the mic further away but when you pan them both slightly left and the other right ... it will sound great.
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richardskeltmusic
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/12/01 09:46:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SiberianKhatru59 2017/12/01 13:05:09
I would start with one mic, 1 foot away from the sound hole but angled away to point at the 12th fret.  With the normal cardioid response on the RODE the boominess of the soundhole is reduced, and you get some brightness from the fretboard without that being overbearing. I'd then do some test recordings in a few different locations in the room to see if there are resonances which are colouring the sound, and then choose to record in the place that gives you the sound closest to what you want.
 
I have generally found that  if you can record decent vocals in a room you should be able to get a decent guitar sound with one mic.  If you have got a truly unusable room for recording with one mic, then I don't think more microphones are going to solve your problems (and they can bring other distracting issues such as phase) in which case you would probably be better off with the internal p/u and try to get a more acoustic sound with EQ and reverb.
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SiberianKhatru59
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/12/01 13:05:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jude77 2017/12/01 15:46:13
Thank you for all the great ideas in this thread.  It's good to talk about music again, not corporate shenanigans...

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gswitz
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/12/01 13:14:59 (permalink)
Sdc for most cases and long takes with lots of different song styles.

For quick attack rhythms I prefer a ribbon or a tube condenser.

I used ldc mikes for years and years. I'm often surprised when I use an ldc and Sdc that the Sdc sound is so much better.

Consider removing guitars not necessary to the performance from the room.
post edited by gswitz - 2017/12/01 13:53:16

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John T
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/12/01 13:38:32 (permalink)
I've tried pretty much every approach to this you could imagine over the years, and here's what I've ended up with:
 
Single good quality large diaphragm condenser, pointed approximately at where the body meets the neck. Warmer tone = point more towardes the body, brighter tone = point more towards the neck.
 
That's it! Never use internal pickup unless I absolutely have to (live recording, for example). OR unless we particularly want the sound of an amplified internal pickup (this happened on a recent production). Have never managed to make an internal pickup sound like a regular acoustic guitar.

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#27
LJB
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/12/01 13:46:14 (permalink)
AKG 451 and Rode NT1 (not NT1A) close to each other over the soundhole, diaphragms in line with each other and pointing slight outwards towards body and neck. Careful that it's not too boomy, so listen before you start recording and move the mics back if need be. Line out for low-end (low-pass filter applied) in case it's needed. 
Pan the two mics hard left and right.
 
Get the player to play in the booth while YOU wear the headphones and move each mic around to decide on position.
 
Or one mic and one DI left and right.
 
Or another fun way is to mic from the top "Player's perspective).
 
Or you can also do all of the above and two distant room mics and blend them all in to taste, but rather track them to separate tracks for safety as sometime that great idea just sucks the next day :O)
 
NO matter how good an internal pickup system is, normally a decent mic will be better..
 
And NEVER underestimate how much a nice chunk of compression can help an acoustic guitar mix..
 
Others may, of course, disagree with all of the above!

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#28
jude77
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Re: An actual question - how do you record acoustic guitar? 2017/12/01 15:49:26 (permalink)
LJB
 
Get the player to play in the booth while YOU wear the headphones and move each mic around to decide on position




That is really good advice.

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