An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think?

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lfm
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2015/04/15 08:23:43 (permalink)

An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think?

Made some experiments today, after reading something about which samplerate to run VST instrument in and thereby the full project.
 
The samples are at my question about RapturePro here:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Rapture-Pro-any-enhancements-of-sound-engine-and-resample-algos-m3206885.aspx#3206885
 
So loading your VSTi inside Metaplugin is all you have to do and use 2x oversampling setting there.
Quite noticable improvement if you ask me. A little cleaner and smoother sounding.
 
Also listen for the artifacts below the actual strings, the mumbeling rumbeling noise going on there. Probably aliasing stuff and some harmonic beating probably due to that. Note that both samples above are rendered using sinc interpolation on DP for rendering.
 
Looking with a analyzer, you see at 20k-22k as drop due to the filtering of oversampling. But that is beyond what even babies here anyway. I certainly don't hear it.
 
So I thought - why not have general oversampling doing any freezing of synths - or rendering project as well?
What do you think?
 
You just run your project in your normal 44/48 or whatever - and get this as a transparent feature.
I guess a preferences setting or something is needed - maybe in plugin manager for each instrument or something.
 
I do my VST instruments inside Metaplugin to get this oversampling - but would be nice as a transparent feature for everybody.
 
You can also get this, taking you midi tracks into a project set at 96k and render audio. Then import it into your full project. But isn't this as a transparent feature soooo much nicer.
 
Does any host have oversampled freeze?
 
So make this thread hot to make Bakers notice it.
Sonar already got the best implementation of freezing I saw anywhere - you get the audio available for further work.
So make Sonar even more far ahead of everybody else.
post edited by lfm - 2015/04/15 08:41:44

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    bitflipper
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    Re: An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think? 2015/04/15 13:00:30 (permalink)
    Some synthesizers are noticeably improved by oversampling, while others are not. Rapture has often been cited as one that does benefit, but my main go-to synth (Zebra), sounds the same either way.
     
    Plugins do exist whose sole purpose is oversampling. They simply serve as a plugin wrapper, a host within a host. Google "VST Oversampler".
     
    As for your question - do any DAWs do this - none that I know of. The only one I know of that might is Tracktion. It has a very cool feature that lets you freeze individual plugins or a section of a track. Not only that, they also offer a CPU usage report that tells you which plugins are eating the most CPU and/or memory, and you can freeze them right there from the report screen. It wouldn't surprise me if they've implemented an oversampling feature (I'll find out soon, as I'm downloading version 6 today).
     
     


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    lfm
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    Re: An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think? 2015/04/15 13:25:55 (permalink)
    Good input, thanks.
    I ran(and bought) T4, and is not going to be another guinney pig for Jules JUCE libraries, even if I they are sold per se.
    Ran T NFR 1.5 10 years ago but chose Sonar 4 Studio at that time.
    Waited, and waited for Mackie to give release point on T2.
     
    Only thing I miss in Sonar, compared to T is the project manager - or what they called it.
    Among the more developed as I saw it 18 months ago.
    I wouldn't mind something like that in Sonar - a real area to just manage projects.
     
    Rack builder in T I have in Metaplugin.
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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think? 2015/04/15 17:38:39 (permalink)
    I would like this feature and I would probably use it a lot if I could set the "freeze oversampling value" in the project preferences or some such. Kinda like AudioSnap needs to be bounced for maximum fidelity, only less extreme.
    Of course, it would then also need to be taken into account during regular offline bounces. 
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    lfm
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    Re: An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think? 2015/04/15 18:10:43 (permalink)
    I don't know if the stretch libraries used in Sonar(is it some izotope algo?) do oversampling to create less artifacts?
     
    But if to use anywhere - all plugins involved must also support the oversampling rate.
    48kx8=384k and not many plugins actually support that.
     
    And 4 times is 192k which not all support either. But 2 times to 88k/96k would work I think.
     
    I remember that some of Waves plugins in Gold Bundle got 96k - just 18 months ago. Ultrapitch and Doppler still was 48k then. Quite a few of Waves stuff still have max 96k.
     
    But if using a dozen vst instruments many would probably benefit from oversampling. And each sounding noticably better will make quite a contribution to a full mix sounding very much better - a cumulating effect. Just like using a little better mikes+preamps would - if used on every track of recorded audio.
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    AT
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    Re: An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think? 2015/04/16 02:00:30 (permalink)
    Good feature.  I'm wondering if RaptPro will forgo the "undersampling" built into most Rapt and Dimpro programs.  They came out when we were still worried about burning cycles.  With 1000s of presets it would be hard to manually go in and resave each preset to high-render.
     
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    Anderton
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    Re: An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think? 2015/04/16 05:30:44 (permalink)
    Noel and I have discussed this. It's more difficult to implement than it looks initially, but it not impossible to implement by any means.

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    lfm
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    Re: An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think? 2015/04/16 06:37:58 (permalink)
    Interesting to hear it's been discussed - then no FR is needed.
    I would certainly step up to Pro/Plat to get it.
    Not having the need to plan for running full projects in 96k is that alone worth it.
     
    Thanks for support so far everybody - keep it coming...

     

     
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    bitflipper
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    Re: An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think? 2015/04/16 10:58:24 (permalink)
    lfm
    I ran(and bought) T4, and is not going to be another guinney pig for Jules JUCE libraries, even if I they are sold per se.
    Ran T NFR 1.5 10 years ago but chose Sonar 4 Studio at that time.
    Waited, and waited for Mackie to give release point on T2.

    T4 was really just a fix release, polishing some rough edges in T3. But then Jules got Tracktion back from Mackie and he's really been going to town! T5 was a whole new DAW, and now T6 has recently been released. It's still got a way to go before it catches up with the likes of SONAR, but at the rate it's going, Tracktion is gonna be a real contender again.
     


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    lfm
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    Re: An idea - general oversampling rendering/freezing VST instruments - what do you think? 2015/04/16 13:01:40 (permalink)
    bitflipper
    T4 was really just a fix release, polishing some rough edges in T3. But then Jules got Tracktion back from Mackie and he's really been going to town! T5 was a whole new DAW, and now T6 has recently been released. It's still got a way to go before it catches up with the likes of SONAR, but at the rate it's going, Tracktion is gonna be a real contender again.
     


    Nah, Jules was back at it for T4 already. Among my most wasted $70. To even charge for that alfa release - paying bugtrackers that's what we were. Never again...
     
    Things are moving a bit with my CWBRN's so hopes are up I'm staying on Sonar.
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