Analog vs Digital

So I've got this friend that showed me some old songs he did on a Helios console recording to a Stephens tape recorder. They sounded so full, clean, lush, yet full of air I couldn't believe it. Pardon the overly used cliches, but there you have it...

Can that sound be had with a modern cutting edge DAW (SONAR of course!!)? I've recorded quite a bit with SONAR and have made some cuts that I thought sounded pretty darn good. I've never made anything that sounded that good. Maybe I just have much to learn?

I know that when bang for the buck and ease of use are concerned, there is no way to beat a DAW, but I tell you what...that tape recording sure sounded nice.

That's what I was leaning towards as well...practice practice.

Just for the fun of it I did some math here. According to a quick search on the net, the samllest grain size on magnetic tape is about 0.05 mm or about 0.002 inch. A tape running at 30 inches per second would then yeild an effective sampling rate of about 15kHz. (30 inches/second / .002 in /sample) Of course the bit depth is effectively infinite (or very deep)

If my math is correct, it seems that you ought to be able to capture sounds WAY more accurately in Sonar even running at "only" 44.1 kHz.

ORIGINAL: solar28

Digital beats analogue hands down. Anybody who things anything analogue can sound better than digital is whacked, is just plain wrong. You ever listened to those old Beatles records? The sound quality is HORRIBLE. Especially Abby Road.

Axis: Bold as Love (Hendrix) was recorded on 4 track 2" tape and you can tell! It kills me to have such a potentially great album ruined by the complely ***ttie sound quality.

When I think of it, I wonder how the hell music survived all these thousands of years without digital. Compare the quality of Britney Spears' last album, compared to anything ever released by the Allman Brothers, Stones, Led Zeppelin, or, By GOD, Stevie Wonder -- what a load a crap.

Give me pro tools, beat detective, auto-tune, and a software modeled compressor and I'll eat your analogue she-ite up.

Very strong words, but your right! i've listened to several old recordings that don't sound no where as near good as some of the modern music. I listened to stevie wonders "hey love" wich sound quality seemed sub standerd to todays music. I recently listened to Wilson Pickett "if you need me" it was dim and the beat seemed a little clowdy.I listened to the platters with similar results. Most of us are so worried about the quality of sound with different DAW's we don't realize just how powerful the tools we have, and how they compare to those of yesterday!It does'nt take much to get the job done, and a cheap digital set up is all you need (that and skills)!

Frequency response is usually determined by the width of the tape, which is measure along the other axis from "grains per inch".

On a different note (ha ha), wouldn't it be more reasonable to compare today's analog equipment with Sonar?

Sinc,

That makes sense. Nyquist doesn't lie... I must have gotten some bad data regarding grain size and it's effect on freq. response.

ORIGINAL: PSPicker

Wow
I was so wanting to get into this, I almost didn't finish my plate of spagetti. I know it's not true but you guys sound like you're 20 or younger - where everything ever recorded before you got here just doesn't make it cause it wasn't created in digital ice.

I'm old enough to remember wire recorders, the victrola with 78's, 45rpm records, when strero came out, reel-to-reel etc... and think everything I ever heard through these mediums was awesome. Why, because it was progressively better than what I heard before. It's all a frame of reference AND, an indicator of how spoiled we've become.

Perhaps tubeydude re-discovered analog on tape with ears so attuned to digital that the experience took on a whole different dimension. And perhaps attalus, with a different frame of reference might remember that what is substandard now was all there was back "then". I'll readily admit that I'm a brat too with my DAW and 24 bit res. but I still love the old stuff - done the old way and try to keep my frame of reference geared to what I'm listening to.

3 cents and going for broke.

I agree, much of the old stuff is still around for a reason (it was good). The point i was making is that even with a cheap digital set up we are fully capable of getting the job done despite the beliefs of many that you need a very expensive analog studio.Many of us cry for better sound quality not really realizing just how powerful our set up already is, i do this myself (and will continue too),but our forefathers in music wished they had what we have to produce with.As far as digital vs analog, to me they go together, and i see them together in many big studios.A computer is not hard to find in major studios.But on a low budget, by faaaaar digital is better. analog could'nt closesly compete, but in the end their complimentary to each other! And also know this, although todays music has a cleaner sound, yesterdays artist sung with more soul, Marvin Gay, Stevie Wonder, Manhattans, Isley brothers etc you don't hear that type of emotions being poured out in music no more, it's all to me just as cold as the digital realm it was produced in!

ORIGINAL: attalus

ORIGINAL: solar28

Digital beats analogue hands down. Anybody who things anything analogue can sound better than digital is whacked, is just plain wrong. You ever listened to those old Beatles records? The sound quality is HORRIBLE. Especially Abby Road.

Axis: Bold as Love (Hendrix) was recorded on 4 track 2" tape and you can tell! It kills me to have such a potentially great album ruined by the complely ***ttie sound quality.

When I think of it, I wonder how the hell music survived all these thousands of years without digital. Compare the quality of Britney Spears' last album, compared to anything ever released by the Allman Brothers, Stones, Led Zeppelin, or, By GOD, Stevie Wonder -- what a load a crap.

Give me pro tools, beat detective, auto-tune, and a software modeled compressor and I'll eat your analogue she-ite up.

Very strong words, but your right! i've listened to several old recordings that don't sound no where as near good as some of the modern music. I listened to stevie wonders "hey love" wich sound quality seemed sub standerd to todays music. I recently listened to Wilson Pickett "if you need me" it was dim and the beat seemed a little clowdy.I listened to the platters with similar results. Most of us are so worried about the quality of sound with different DAW's we don't realize just how powerful the tools we have, and how they compare to those of yesterday!It does'nt take much to get the job done, and a cheap digital set up is all you need (that and skills)!

I concur. However, it all comes down to what gear inputing into Sonar and your interface and your cords and your mic preamps etc. etc.. etc.. As far as softsynths go and such however, Unless there isn't one made for an analog sound you need, nothing can really beat it. Most softsynths are made for 24bit recording and they're very very hard to beat in sound... I've had problems with Sofysynths and my Mic sounding so nice it gave me problems when it came to mixing because of the lack of quality in something else that was recorded ><

ORIGINAL: boten

Here's an interesting article by Bruce Miller around Digital vs Analog. See section "mixing digital to feel like analog". It is obvious that analog gear has some advantges over digital and for those willing to hear that in digital work, some tricks how to accomplish that analog feel as much as the digital technology enables it.

good engineering is good engineering .. a lot of what people hold up as examples of great tape
or great vinyl or great spool ;-) is just great engineering and great performances. that said, there
are characteristics/coloration of the analog consoles and tape which we are acustomed to
hearing.

with modern digital technology, you can very closely emulate/model the characteristics of
these devices. tools such as McDSP's Analog Channel are routinely used in mixing to give a more
analog feel and smooth out what some feel is the starkness of digital audio. Analog channel is
a very accurate emulation (imho).

personally, i like the way digital sounds .. and i think tape and analog console emulation are
used much like film effects are used in digital video .. they give a certain "feel" which a producer
or artist may want. as generations grow up "pure digital" perhaps they will be used less and less.

jeff

yeah, I think he was joking as well. I like the tones in those 60s and 70s recordings. Acoustic instrument recordings these days sound pretty cheesy. Most of it comes down to taste and not the medium used, I'm sure, but I almost chose analog over digital becuase 95% of my favorite tracks were recorded in analog. Convenience, not sound quality, was the convincing factor for digital.

nevermind...

Anybody remember that album that Ry Cooder came out with about 25 years ago, which was purportedly the first commercial release "recorded digitally"? At least that's what the sticker on the cover touted. And the funny thing is it was pressed on vinyl .

Then there was a series of jazz records (e.g., Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessell, I think) which were recorded "direct to disk". Although this was probably an analogue process I still remember the prescence on those things was amazing, made the hair stand up on end. So yeah there's analog and there's *analog*.

It's all good...

Musician-In-A-Box

ORIGINAL: solar28

I love digital not because it's the be all end all, but because it's amazing what you can lay down for a few grand and time investment.

Amen.

Soul is the responsibililty of the performer, not the recording technology.

Anyone who would think otherwise doesn't have it.

Sorry tomek -- I was just being a smart*ss.

See my post above where I explain that I'm joking. Beatles are one of my all time favorites, as is Zeppelin and Hendrix, rolling stones, etc.

I debated about whether to include a wink or not. I thought the piece about the "quality of Britney Spears" would give me away.

:)

That's interesting. 26 years. I remember dimly seeing a "DDD" compact disc for the first time (mid eighties?)-- and naively I was like, this is going to be SO GOOD. I mean, DDD -- digital all the way. Now it's 2005 and we're buying "warmulator" plugins! Tape Compression, Tube Warmth -- I'm just as guilty.

I love the way the UAD pultec or Fairchild/LA2A sound on tracks. I also have Antares' Tube, Voxengo Warmifier. And Vintage Warmer. I also just dropped a not insignificant amount of $$ (for me) for a demonizer.

Of course none of this beats a real LA2A/Firechild/etc (whoa -- IMHO). But then again if I could afford those I wouldn't waste time being a smart**s on forums!

Yup -- I'm a lucky owner of a "spear britney" T shirt.

She's my basic example of what's wrong w/ modern music. But whoa -- I need to be careful here, because I'm sure I'm offending someone who thinks she's great.

but everynow and then I get this sick feeling also -- about whether or not I truly know how bad Britney Spears sucks! Because when rock and roll first came out, everyone was like, OMG that's so much BS. Rock and Roll takes no talent! All it is Sex and Drugs.

Of course many people also thought Jazz/Blues sucked back in the day. People just could not be bothered with listening to negro music. But I digress.

I can say this though with certainty -- at least back then you heard (as compared to Britney Spears)
a) the ACTUAL vocal performance
b) the actual drums
c) subtle, almost impercebtible timing errors

Remember how people used to just look down on overdubbing? Little did they know about what would happen in the digital with, and I quote "pro tools, beat detective, auto-tune".

One of my favorite recent discoveries (for me) -- White Stripes' Get Behind Me Satan. He recorded the whole album in 6 weeks, in the basement of his house with: rented grand piano, rented ribbon mics, and rented vibes. I love the album -- and it's sold something like 300k copies. So it just goes right back to song writing! 6 weeks and a bunch of ribbon mics. LOVE IT!