kson
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 540
- Joined: 2008/12/12 10:30:44
- Location: Austin, TX
- Status: offline
And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
Pro Tools 12 - The Blowback Pro Tools 12 was announced at the NAMM show, but not many liked what they heard about. This applies to you even if you're not a Pro Tools user because of the influence it will have on all sectors of the audio software industry. 1. What's so new? In a nutshell, Pro Tools 12 will only be available via subscription. You can either go month to month at $29.95 per month or $299 per year, or get a "perpetual" license that allows you to purchase the software for $899. You also need a subscription for your hardware as well so that the software continues to work with it. Here's the rub - If you stop paying your monthly subscription, the Pro Tools software will disappear from your computer. And a perpetual license is of little help since you still have to pay $899 per year to get any support or upgrades. Stop paying and the app remains on your computer, but no updates are available to you. 2. Large facilities aren't happy. The major film and television studios and large post houses that all run Pro Tools and Avid picture editors realize that it's going to cost them a lot more money every year to keep their systems running. Imaging if you have 200+ systems and you have to pay big dough every year just to keep working? Plus there's an issue of putting anything in the cloud, which violates the Marvel standard for protecting film data. Kind of defeats the purpose of being tied to the cloud. 3. Musicians and producers aren't happy. It's going to cost more money per year and you're going to be tied at the hip with Avid closer than ever, which scares a lot of musicians. But most of all, there's no advantage to using Pro Tools 12 because there are no new features except for cloud collaboration, which is of limited use to most users. 4. Avid's not the only one headed to the cloud. Adobe was the pioneer of the subscription model, but this is new to audio. That said Cakewalk Sonar and Slate Digital are going that way too. 5. Will a new alternative emerge? Nuendo once made a lot of headway into the film and video post community until it was bought by Yamaha, who ignored that sector afterwards. It's a very powerful and capable system, and with great third-party IO hardware now widely available, don't be surprised to see Nuendo getting another close look. Of course, if Universal Audio ever bought or came out with a DAW, the discussion would probably be over. Outlook: There's a lot more to this story than you read above, although there's not enough space to get into it here. However, if you're a Pro Tools user, you're going to see some changes in the next 12 months, either transferring to the subscription model, perhaps Avid backing down on some level to something easier to digest, or having to change to a new DAW app. If you're not a Pro Tools user, expect your favorite DAW to at least test the subscription waters soon, especially if Avid is successful.
|
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5321
- Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
- Location: Maryland, USA
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 10:52:50
(permalink)
(Un)fortunately, the companies who have tested the waters with this have also had software released prior to these models which do extremely high percentages of the new models functionality. As years pass the law of diminishing returns applies, which will even test those who make revenue from the program(s). Hobbyists will get tested significantly sooner.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
|
dwardzala
Max Output Level: -61 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1470
- Joined: 2008/05/26 19:18:33
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 11:05:36
(permalink)
This is another advantage that Cake has over PT. There will also be an impact to educational institutions, unless AVID is providing pricing advantages to them. PT is used a lot because it is taught a lot (because it was used a lot due to its hardware functionality originally.) So either the cost of that education is going to go up (likely) or educational institutions who are teaching general principle courses (i.e. not PT specific ones) will switch to more affordable solutions. Which will eventually result in a shift in the marketplace.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
|
MachineClaw
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1116
- Joined: 2012/10/08 00:15:28
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 11:20:49
(permalink)
I have ProTools 10 and 11. I do not nor will I upgrade to 12. I will not be doing Avid's new model at all. I have Cakewalk Sonar X1 Pro, X2 Pro and X3 Pro. I will not be doing Cakewalk's new model at all. I will not be doing subscriptions or any of these proposed models for upgrades. I am still using my Adobe CS3 products. won't upgrade to the cloud based subscription stuff.
|
mixmkr
Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3169
- Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 11:58:38
(permalink)
Cake says they are not a subscription and you can keep the software after you pay for it. How is that like a subscription that is needed for continued use?
|
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10654
- Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
- Location: TeXaS
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 13:15:01
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby bapu 2015/02/05 13:20:07
Subscription means whatever the company wants it to mean. A subscription should mean you get the product and keep it. If you want the latest, you keep paying for it. Like newspapers. Or magazines. If you stopped your subscription, SOS didn't send the bully boys to your house to clean out your bathroom reading stash. You just didn't get any upgrades. Adobe and Protools don't understand English, or get subscription confused with extortion ("That's an ugly word, and if you mention it again I'll have your legs broken." - Animal House). Cakewalk can use a dictionary. And is the reason so many of us got short-tempered with those that didn't. @
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
|
musicroom
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2421
- Joined: 2004/04/26 22:31:02
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 13:40:12
(permalink)
AT Subscription means whatever the company wants it to mean. A subscription should mean you get the product and keep it. If you want the latest, you keep paying for it. Like newspapers. Or magazines. If you stopped your subscription, SOS didn't send the bully boys to your house to clean out your bathroom reading stash. You just didn't get any upgrades. Adobe and Protools don't understand English, or get subscription confused with extortion ("That's an ugly word, and if you mention it again I'll have your legs broken." - Animal House). Cakewalk can use a dictionary. And is the reason so many of us got short-tempered with those that didn't. @
Well said AT!
Dave Songs___________________________________ Desktop: Platinum / RME Multiface II / Purrfect Audio DAW I7-3770 / 16 GB RAM / Win 10 Pro / Remote Laptop i7 6500U / 12GB RAM / RME Babyface
|
mixmkr
Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3169
- Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 14:27:58
(permalink)
I agree AT. Some people just will never understand and they only see the "glass half empty". You sometimes kinda feel sorry for those people.
|
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9736
- Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
- Location: Las Vegas
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 15:00:07
(permalink)
Yeah, just read that B. Owsinski newsletter and was coming here to correct a post I'd made recently. That's the clearest explanation I've read so far, and it has the merit of coming from a Pro Tools user, so it's not like he's on a mission to hype another DAW software. I think AVID will back down. That's the only option I see for them, and for their own sake. I own 11 and really don't care for 12. The way I see it, my current DAW will remain as is until I upgrade my studio computer - no OS upgrade, no major software upgrade. Furthermore, I've just inherited a Command 8 control surface for Pro Tools, and I intend to use that thing for a while... If I want to enhance what I got, I'll simply run it on a laptop and hook it up to the main machine. And I must say that for that, Cakewalk's own subscription model and pricing is a lot more tempting. If I can get over my aversion for Windows...
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
|
mixmkr
Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3169
- Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 15:38:56
(permalink)
Once I boot up and I'm inside my DAW software, I never use Windows. (Wink) ;-)
|
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9736
- Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
- Location: Las Vegas
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 16:00:49
(permalink)
mixmkr Once I boot up and I'm inside my DAW software, I never use Windows. (Wink) ;-)
Yeah, but it's the steps to get there and have that machine configured... The only maintenance I've done in the last 4 years was an occasional "verify disk" and "repair permission". As for optimizing my DAW, I right-click and disable WIFI when working. That's it. No drivers download, no 3rd party utilities to install or remove, no registry edit, no BIOS to tweak. I can do all that stuff and did it for over 10 years, but I've gotten spoiled. :P But I'm seriously looking into running Sonar on a secondary machine, nevertheless.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
|
kson
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 540
- Joined: 2008/12/12 10:30:44
- Location: Austin, TX
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 16:10:42
(permalink)
As a business person, I really do understand why companies favor the subscription model. It provides a stable, continuous bottom line which makes doing business, planning and r&d much easier. That said, I don't care for it as a consumer. If CW had to do it, I'm glad they did it they way they did. At least I can keep what I pay for "outright". I've noticed the same trend in phone apps. I can only hope this isn't the new way of doing business.
|
dubdisciple
Max Output Level: -17 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5849
- Joined: 2008/01/29 00:31:46
- Location: Seattle, Wa
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 17:19:02
(permalink)
I think when studios get stable they tend to avoid upgrading unless absolutely necessary. it's a royal pain having to get all the kinks figured out after an upgrade, especially when the return is not that significant. i run across plenty of studios using PT 10 and even 9 occasionally. This model will basically assure that newcomers to the game will have no choice but to indulge in every upgrade or be stuck with nothing. The upside of this to me that is that it gives other players that had a huge uphill climb to overcome the seemingly insurmountable lead Avid has built over the years. Avid has been losing money in recent years and i am guessing that upgrade sales are not what they wish and newcomers are splitting their options. I think this is more of a push to make their core users be stuck with their choice perpetually.
|
pentimentosound
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1535
- Joined: 2005/08/15 23:37:34
- Location: Honor, Michigan
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 17:40:51
(permalink)
Thanks kson. I had just copied the Bobby Owsinski newsletter post and was going to start this thread here, too. My wife and I have been talking about this for a few weeks, when she was been "wrestling with" the Adobe Premier subscription. Then CW hopped on this wagon. Bobby Owsinski's post (the OP) is or rather feels bleak to me. I don't use PT, but I really hope CW isn't planning anything like Avid, down the road. Ironically, I overheard 2 guys talking about Gibson being for sale, while at my favorite local shop in Traverse City, MI!?!? Maybe this is a mid-winter "storm" scare. I know some PT pals are going to be up in arms about it. Michael
|
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9736
- Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
- Location: Las Vegas
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 17:50:53
(permalink)
dubdisciple I think when studios get stable they tend to avoid upgrading unless absolutely necessary. it's a royal pain having to get all the kinks figured out after an upgrade, especially when the return is not that significant. i run across plenty of studios using PT 10 and even 9 occasionally. This model will basically assure that newcomers to the game will have no choice but to indulge in every upgrade or be stuck with nothing. The upside of this to me that is that it gives other players that had a huge uphill climb to overcome the seemingly insurmountable lead Avid has built over the years. Avid has been losing money in recent years and i am guessing that upgrade sales are not what they wish and newcomers are splitting their options. I think this is more of a push to make their core users be stuck with their choice perpetually.
My wife's brother runs a small commercial studio - he's still running Pro Tools TDM 5 or 6 on a Mac G4. He's added a laptop to his rig in order to run things like Kontakt. Me I'm glad I got the upgrade to the latest version at bargain price. I don't write in Pro Tools and as far as mixing is concerned, version 11 offers all that I need.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
|
Dave Modisette
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11050
- Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
- Location: Brandon, Florida
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 18:22:14
(permalink)
My plans are to stand pat at Pro Tools 11 and wait to see how Sonar develops and wait to see how the other DAW developers react. I have no problem with how the Cakewalk membership plan is set up. It all depends on how the updates and added features roll out. However, I don't see enough band for the buck in the PT 12 (lack of) features set.
|
Larry Jones
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
- Total Posts : 834
- Joined: 2007/10/11 02:45:33
- Location: Southern California
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 19:06:46
(permalink)
Having just been through the hysteria of Sonar's membership rollout in this forum, I find it mildly amusing to read what's going on in the Avid forums. Some users are up in arms and will never give Avid another penny, and the moderators are feverishly posting links to the FAQ and saying that "...Avid will have to prove that your reenlistment each year is worth it." Sound familiar? The one thing that is different is nobody is repeating endlessly "It is NOT a subscription," because, of course, it is. Pro Tools holds a stronger market position than Sonar -- it's been around longer, it's taught in schools and it's used in commercial settings where $899 (plus specialized hardware) can more easily be amortized. So Avid is leveraging that position to bring in more money. That's what corporations do. Sonar, in my opinion, is much better software for songwriters and project studios, and I bet if you looked at sales you'd see those are the areas where Sonar is most popular. There's just not as much money floating around in that environment, so Cakewalk cannot be quite so brazen as Avid, but the principle's the same.
post edited by Larry Jones - 2015/02/05 21:45:41
SONAR Platinum 2017.10 • CbB • Win10 • i7/2600 • 16GB RAM • Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 • NVIDIA GeForce 8400GS
|
SuperG
Max Output Level: -63 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1371
- Joined: 2012/10/19 16:09:18
- Location: Edgewood, NM
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 20:48:56
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2015/02/14 21:37:36
Larry Jones Some users are up in arms and will never give Avid another penny, and the moderators are feverishly posting links to the FAQ and saying that "...Avid will have to prove that your reenlistment each year is worth it."
Major troll party over there...
|
cclarry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 20964
- Joined: 2012/02/07 09:42:07
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/05 21:42:37
(permalink)
Guitar Center is on the way out also, from what I just read...
|
Dave Modisette
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11050
- Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
- Location: Brandon, Florida
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/13 09:07:42
(permalink)
Larry Jones Having just been through the hysteria of Sonar's membership rollout in this forum, I find it mildly amusing to read what's going on in the Avid forums. Some users are up in arms and will never give Avid another penny, and the moderators are feverishly posting links to the FAQ and saying that "...Avid will have to prove that your reenlistment each year is worth it." Sound familiar? The one thing that is different is nobody is repeating endlessly "It is NOT a subscription," because, of course, it is. Pro Tools holds a stronger market position than Sonar -- it's been around longer, it's taught in schools and it's used in commercial settings where $899 (plus specialized hardware) can more easily be amortized. So Avid is leveraging that position to bring in more money. That's what corporations do. Sonar, in my opinion, is much better software for songwriters and project studios, and I bet if you looked at sales you'd see those are the areas where Sonar is most popular. There's just not as much money floating around in that environment, so Cakewalk cannot be quite so brazen as Avid, but the principle's the same.
Yup, that's part of my dilemma. The full time studio guys will take what I would view as an insignificant feature update like track freeze and justify paying $600.00 for it. Their logic (and I have to admit that for them it is sound) is that if that little feature saves them a couple of bucks worth of time per day, it pays for itself in a year. Eeek, I'm pretty much disarmed at that point.
|
Larry Jones
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
- Total Posts : 834
- Joined: 2007/10/11 02:45:33
- Location: Southern California
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/14 20:26:02
(permalink)
Dave Modisette Yup, that's part of my dilemma. The full time studio guys will take what I would view as an insignificant feature update like track freeze and justify paying $600.00 for it. Their logic (and I have to admit that for them it is sound) is that if that little feature saves them a couple of bucks worth of time per day, it pays for itself in a year. Eeek, I'm pretty much disarmed at that point.
When I was actually in the commercial studio biz in the 70s and 80s, I noticed the "what-the-market-will-bear" syndrome. In those days you could buy, for example, a 31-band stereo graphic equalizer with -10 RCA connectors for $200. The same unit with +4 XLRs was $600. Because it was "professional." Flash forward to 2015 and you can see Avid doing something similar with their software. They would argue that their product is "professional" and thus should cost more. I think the difference today is that that the Avid advantage is quite tenuous. All they have going, really, is that they are in widespread use. They hope that people will use their product because people are using their product. If they push their users too far, a lot of people will start to notice that a PCM audio file is pretty much the same whether you make it in Pro Tools or Reaper or Sonar, and someone will mention that the Emperor has no clothes, and then Avid will sell Pro Tools and go back to marketing video editors, where the budgets are in the tens of millions and who cares if the editing suite costs $200k? So I'm sticking with Sonar.
SONAR Platinum 2017.10 • CbB • Win10 • i7/2600 • 16GB RAM • Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 • NVIDIA GeForce 8400GS
|
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5694
- Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
- Location: Richmond Virginia USA
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/14 21:53:40
(permalink)
When the internet threatened newspapers, some of them cut their prices hoping to grow their customer bases. Others raised prices hoping to offset revenue losses due to attrition with increased revenue from loyal customers. Either situation might have been the most profitable approach. Ultimately, it played out that those that raised prices kept larger total revenues even though they had fewer customers. To me, it looks like all the DAWs are taking this view. That some customers will be loyal and will pay the higher prices, but the customers that will leave for open source will not stay or adopt a DAW they must pay for even at 1/2 price or less. So, as the cost of staying with a high-end private DAW goes up, you can expect that the number of people switching to Ubuntu Studio with their class compliant interfaces to climb. The high-end studios could also switch to Linux at a large annual savings. One of the big hold-backs is the limited number of companies that license their VSTs for Linux. I have no idea why they don't. Like, why doesn't Cakewalk license the CA-2A for Linux? As the number of users using Ubuntu Studio grows, the quality will grow too. So will the variety and options of add-ins. Anyway, I think that the companies are positioning themselves. It might take 10 years, it might take 100, but eventually there will be serious open source alternatives.
post edited by gswitz - 2015/02/14 22:21:52
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
|
mixmkr
Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3169
- Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/14 22:14:08
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2015/02/14 22:17:56
gswitz Like, why doesn't Cakewalk license the CA-2A for Linux?
If I were to guess, the people I know that say they "prefer" or use Linux are more out of the mainstream, and almost kind of in their own computer world, for a lack of better words. I won't use "cult", but something more like ....well...I can't think of another word/term at this time. Any rate, I'd say we're talking 5% or less, of total users doing audio on computers. That alone would make an easy decision not to bother.
|
soens
Max Output Level: -23.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5154
- Joined: 2005/09/16 03:19:55
- Location: Location: Location
- Status: offline
Re: And in this corner we have Pro Tools 12...
2015/02/14 22:14:35
(permalink)
AT ... SOS didn't send the bully boys to your house to clean out your bathroom reading stash. You just didn't get any upgrades.
Emergency Corporate Meeting immediately! It's come to my attention that there's a whole 'nother level to this subscription thingie we seemed to have neglected. Put your heads together - I need a new model by noon today!
|