Another "too much bass?" question...

Image of some of the settings on the bass...
 

Bass sounds ok, but why use 2x of LP-64 multiband compressors
who is not compressing at all ?
just a waste of resources ! Any trick i do not know here ?

At least i would run a compression on  "one band " ( 125/140hz -700 hz range )  reducing the lvl
with compression about -2 to 5 db at that range " depends on the taste "
to get rid of some " box-iness " sound and maybe do the bass more tight..
just my suggestion or thought if u will.....
And with just 1 compressor ..

I also do not cut under 10k because even a bass have air up to that frequencies, small but still noticeable.

Ok, i have not tried that way of managing a signal before
i need to have a look into that myself, and see how that works out. 

I guess there's a lot of  techniques i do not know of,  :-/

Hmm by using this technique, what will happen to the sound ?
More definition on the high frequencies ?

I know it is hard to mix, i guess the ppl in the band look for a kind of " punchy " 
and kinda tight type bass sound, with a good low end to it ?

It is kinda the same technique on vocal , where you double the vocal track
then on the second track remove the low end ,add a HP filter ( up to 2khz )
and put some distortion to it and maybe an EQ to boost the High's, then adjust the volume on second vocal track
to add the " shine " and definition.

yeah a cool and great way to enhance the sound. 

On the bass, low end ( talking bass guitar ) , it is probably good to use a M/S EQ and drop some db down on
the Side channel on the " in the box " and " problem " frecuencies.
then on the MID channel boost around 60 - 95hz and maybe some other place where you want some character ?
It may also be needed to drop a few db in the Mid band to... it depends ( if there's a conflict with frequencies )
in a vocal or similar, to make a tad of room for the vocal etc.

anyway's hope you find a solution, just need to keep trying different techniques.

reminding me... i need to buy the Fabfilter Pro Q EQ again ;-)

Ok gs, now I'm back and might be able to shed a little light on this for you.
 
First off, in my opinion you shouldn't need a multiband on anything unless there is a specific "surgical" need to do so. I like how you are experimenting with things though...but again, you're (imho) over thinking and over-processing on this.
 
The first thing to decide is do you want a kick drum with boom and a bass with a little more high end clack or do you want a kick that has more beater attack and a bass with more of an "ooom" type low end sound? From there, that blueprint there can help you sculpt the mix a bit better because you know what you're shooting for coming out of the gate.
 
In this song example you posted, I don't hear anything blatantly wrong (other than a few subjective things which I'll share in a bit) with the bass but as Geno has mentioned, the kick drum is non-existent and needs some thrust to it. See, when you create a mix, the sound of the low end on the whole comes from the relationship of the kick and bass guitar.
 
Together that team is what makes up the low end. Doing this to a single instrument is moot. Several instruments make up the low end in a mix and even more so in a mastered mix. It's sort of like how guys are using reference material to mix better when in reality, they are referencing mastered material. This is why so many home studio guys or newer engineers are totally getting lost and over processing trying to come up with the perfect mix. What you hear on a finished mix from a reputable engineer is NOT what you hear on the master as you know. The mix is usually flat and well balanced. It doesn't have accentuated lows etc like you've heard me mention before.
 
In a sense, the mix you've presented here, would *almost* be a good candidate for a mastering engineer to turn into a great final product. You need some kick drum work though and a little more tweaking to cut some of the mids you have going on here and this would be pretty good. Bass seems a bit muddy with the drive on it to me and could use more definition and a little "clack" at about 2.5 k in my opinion. It "ooms" a little too much for my liking and seems a bit too comped.
 
Remember when I talked about a bass with more low end and a kick with more beater etc? The low end is the toughest because you have to decide if you want a little sub low harmonic, or a major thrust. This is what YOU have to decide in this particular mix. What you choose here with the kick drum helps define your bass choices.....or in your case, if you leave the bass as is, it *should* define your kick drum.
 
Right now, your kick drum is doing nothing in terms of thrust. With your bass as low endy as it is, you're going to have to select a kick drum frequency that either has a little sub low harmonic in it, or a low end thrust point that is higher than the bass low end so that they don't mask.
 
OR, you'll need to back down some of the bass guitar lows and bring in kick drum lows. It's ok to have the bass guitar as 2nd in command of low end. Though that is usually not the classic rock way, there's nothing wrong with allowing the kick to rule the low end roost. A prime example of that is Living Color's "Cult of Personality".
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xxgRUyzgs0
 
Give it a listen when you get a minute. You have more low end in your tune than they do....but what do you hear every time? Right...that consistent kick drum thrust. The bass is there...but you hear it more and feel it just a little. That mix sounds exactly the same on any system I listen on. That kick and bass just works so well. Take notice there is no low end kick thrust on it...yet it sounds huge and hits you in the throat instead of the stomach.
 
My point in sharing that......you don't need as much low end as you think to make things have impact. When the relationship works right....the stars align man. :) Now, you may not like this mix....and that's ok. But I just wanted you to hear how the opposite (kick ruling the roost) can have impact too.
 
In your case, you need a happy medium of kick thrust and low end on the bass. 60 Hz to 110 Hz usually gets you your thrust power with tight Q's on 50 Hz for a little sub if needed. But...you gotta be careful there because it's too easy to go over-board with it. Best to leave that stuff to an ME when it comes to the sub harms for enhancement.
 
If I'm you in this situation, I'm going for kick drum thrust between 60-80 Hz and will cut down/high pass the low end on the bass until it works with the kick...and I'm removing that tube thing. You've made things a bit too warm all across the board in my opinion...tube drivers etc...mask the brilliance of digital and remove the high frequencies that I personally find musically stimulating. Subjective, but that's how I'd attack it.
 
You made a mention in that other thread that someone from the band came to your studio and mixed a song with you telling you how much bass they wanted in things....and when they listened on their system, it had too much bass or something, right?
 
What were your thoughts on that mix when you listened to it on your system? If it sounded wrong to you, it was wrong. If it sounded pretty good yet sounded bad on other systems, time for monitor tuning and some room tuning. It's up to us to tell the clients "yes, I know what you want but this will not sound good sonically" when you know it will suck. Yeah, they are paying for it, but they usually don't know about this stuff like you and your name goes on it too...so it has to be a 2-way street as much as possible.
 
Anyway, I hope some of this helps. Keep up the great work man.
 
-Danny

Danny, no one is paying for it. :-) It's a favor for friends. And I appreciate you helping me help my friends. I don't want you to think I am re-selling your help. I'm gifting it.
 
Next, when she (band member) listened in my 'studio' (room over garage), she liked it, but when she listened on her laptop, she did not. That's the real challenge here. I'm trying to mix for a BAD STEREO not a Good one. I even set up a pair of computer speakers on my desk and turned off the real stereo speakers and sub to try to get a picture of what her listening environment is, but even those did too good of a job on the bass as compared with her laptop.
 
I've made some tweaks to the kick tonight. I didn't actually push the level. I cut some low off the bass and put a sidechain on the bass (CA2A on Limit setting). I'm already hearing you say no no wrong direction. :-)
 
I know you would raise the high pass on the bass, and I didn't.
 
I'll try pulling the tube thing. I stuck that on there to try to get frequencies spread out in the audible range on her laptop (muddy in exchange for freq boost?).
 
I agree with pulling that off. I keep trying raising the cut off for the high pass on the bass, but I just lose so much of that great bass sound I'm loving. I can't do it.
 
I'll work more tomorrow. Bed time. Thanks so much for posting !! I have updated the posted MP3, so what you hear now is where I'm stopping tonight.
 
** How was your gig?? **
 
 

gs: it's ok if you resell my info. LOL! It's provided in hopes of helping and given with love. :)
 
Laptop references: She can't go by that. I know you know that...she has to know it as well. Here's an idea. Give a listen to something on her laptop that she thinks sounds good. At least you can judge for yourself if it is indeed good or not. It helps when you can hear what others hear as it can also show you what you could be missing that is allowing them to like what they like. It's not going to fix anything totally, but it can help at times. It's rare you'll make everything sound right through speakers like those. Even ear buds can sometimes suffer unless the unit they are plugged into has bass boost or something. I mean granted, we want to get things sounding as good as we can on every system possible....but we also don't want to stress because 1/4 inch ear buds or 2 inch lappy speakers may not sound right. If you were to keep mixing for every place...you'll be here forever. However, this is where mastering comes in and can make a huge difference.
 
When I master something, I keep everything in mind and also try to give you a mix that will translate without distortion or too much low end on everything. The other side of the coin is this....and what I'll say here is something that may be an epiphany for you and others. No matter what you do....no matter what I do, no matter what Bob Ludwig or Mutt Lange would do, the second someone touches a piece of music (that isn't an engineer) they reach for their eq and ruin it with excessive eq. Seriously....I see it so often, it almost makes me not want to care anymore because the majority of common folks are so clueless. They either jack up the lows or raise EVERY frequency band just to get more volume. So at the end of the day, you could release something as great as a Doobie Brothers album...and still have someone jack it beyond recognition. Do the best you can, don't try for perfection on every system....and just keep that happy medium in mind while knowing you have done the best you could do.
 
As for the new mix, that's the right idea in my opinion. You can turn the bass guitar up a little more as I can no longer hear it as well consistently. I sort of feel it, but it's not as audible. Two things could be the cause. Do you know which two they may be?
 
1. Fader level could come up a bit and may be the fix
 
2. Side chaining could be removing the bass more than it should and may not be keeping it consistent
 
You know my feelings on side-chaining. I'm totally against it other than in certain situations when you have busy mixes, dance material, hip hop, but just about never on rock. Let me ask you a question. Why did you side-chain? See, I need to grill you on this stuff because I have quite a few students that do things "just because" or because they read about them. In this field bro, you should (at least in my opinion you should) always justify a means as to why you do something. Sure, sometimes we experiment. But, when compressors are shared to where instruments trade off like in a side-chaining situation, you do more harm than good unless you have a reason to add something like that.
 
In my opinion, you have a VERY healthy bass tone. If your eq fails on the kick and you are not happy with it, you can always replace it. I don't know if you have Drumagog or not, but you can actually use a killer kick from session drummer if need be. In case you're unsure how to do this...
 
Run audio snap on the kick track. Hi-lite the track, snap it up then "copy as midi" and paste it to a blank midi track using midi note number 35 or 36, (make sure your time line is completely rewound) fly in Session drummer on an audio track, set the midi out to SD3, pick the kick you want and bang...mix in the amount you want with the real one. This not only helps fix any problems you *may* have, it allows you a totally new canvas of eq's to work on for the kick. New thrust freq's and beater attack due to the sample being different than the original kick.
 
Don't ever feel like changing a sound is cheating. Sometimes the sound we record just isn't good. I'm not saying that's the case with your kick...but sometimes a sound just doesn't work. I think you have the right idea with the new mix as the kick has a bit more "ooomph" to it. I'd add a little snap to it....you know, some beater attack. Run your high end gain on the kick up all the way and sweep the freq until you hear some snap. Then of course back the gain down and experiment with the Q to see how things tighten up, then compress it so it's consistent. (the guy doesn't seem to *kick* it hard consistently) Or...like I said, run a Session Drummer kick along with your kick and hybrid....it makes for a really cool sound for added reinforcement. :)
 
Keep at it brother...it's getting there. Keep in mind, I'm not totally annihilating the mix because I don't see a need to. Blatant issues....I'll tell you about. Anything that may be subjective (which most of this is) I try to keep out unless I feel something is worth expressing. So take what I say with a grain of salt. :) Good luck!
 
-Danny

Is your gear damaged? I hope not.

I'm sorry, Danny. I feel your pain. I am often anxious when hauling my gear out.
 
I hope a good solution presents itself.
 
Try taking a little time and considering. After years of acquiring stuff, I often find a creative solution with what I have. Not always (witness the RME). Sometimes you have to break down and spend.
 
I'm currently updating the posted MP3. I boosted the bass and kick. I plan to make some changes to the lead guitar and one of the vocals, but I think I'm getting close to finished with this tune.
 
All the best,
 
G

Thanks G. :) I've just been so comfortable with my gear/tones after tone chasing for so long....it's upsetting to think about all the additional work I have to do. This particular pre-amp that dropped, I have back-ups for starting in 1993. So at any given time, I can drop in a disk and see what my tones were like in 93 up to present. It's a really killer guitar pre-amp. Not exactly good news, but fair news....I obtained all the schematics for it and a certified Fender electronics tech has it and feels he could rebuild the thing with all good stuff. He's still checking out the unit though so at this point I don't know what can or can't be done. If he can fix this though, I have 4 more to send him and if he rebulds them, I should be good for another 40 years. LOL! :)
 
Listened to your tune...to me it sounds like the one I commented on the other day a bit. Not much change in the bass. It almost sounds like each time a kick and a bass hits that the bass drops slightly. It's not all the time, but it happens quite a bit to my ears. This (if what I'm hearing is correct) is one of the side effects of side-chaining and why I have a problem with it. YET...other times, the bass seems to be hitting with the kick...so as my dad would say to me in situations like this..."Danny, you're all wet". LOL!
 
I do like the sound of this version though....it doesn't seem as warm as the previous which to me is a good thing. You shined it up in the right areas. Bass just seems a little low to me and could use a bit more definition still. Anyway....the mix is fine enough in my opinion and is a good representation of the band. :) Nice job.
 
-Danny

I've re-posted it. I pushed the bass and the kick another 3 dB each pretty much. I lowered the ratio and raised the threshold on the side chain. I also shortened the time to release. I hope I made it transparent.

Thanks guitar trek! I appreciate you giving feedback.

Sorry wookie I don't know why it isn't working.

TheBand 
I can't really hear the bass during the lead, can you bring it up a bit?

The RMS level for the bass is between -24 and -18.
For the louder guitar it's -35 dB.
 

 
So I pushed the bass another 2 dB in the whole mix and more during the lead.
 
I sure have some bass junky friends, don't I?
 
I tried to keep it listenable by pushing some of the higher bands on the LP-64 (you can see them nudged up in the image).
 
To me, it sounds like I'm listening from the back of the venue with the highs dissipated and the bass doubled off the back wall. Like where I go to chill after my girl has left me for her X. Drown my sorrows. I know this sound. :-)