Any Cantabile Users?

I'm reviewing a new VST host targeted at live performers. It's pretty cool but feels a lot like version 1 (which it is). I don't know yet if it'll end up being my own solution for live use, but it looks promising.
 
So I'm surveying VST hosts in general, looking for commonalities, e.g. standard features and common limitations. The only ones I have significant experience with are VSTHost and SAVIHost, but I understand that the leaders are MainStage and Cantabile. I can't demo the former as it's Mac-specific, but I've installed a Cantabile Solo 30-day trial to check it out.
 
So far Cantabile strikes me as being rather obtuse and clumsy, but I don't want to base my opinion solely on a novice's perspective. I'd like to ask experienced users who've traversed the learning curve what it's like on the other side. Anyone use it? 

I thought you were cutting down on this as your New Years Resolution?
 
 
Oh.....it's Cantabile?
 
 
NVM....
 
 

No, not for many years. Broke the habit when I got into working aviation contracts and you were always subject to random piss tests. Plus my lungs were taking a hit.
 
Oh, wait...  Any CANTABILE users. Sorry, misread.
 
Went through a bunch of hosts including Cantabile over time and settled on EnergyXT as my go to, which I always considered to be the other missing hand of Sonar.  XT leveled the playing field and more against Reaper's advantage regarding vsti management. Has amazed me that no one else has expressed using this program for hosting, live or otherwise. Either I'm missing the boat or nobody knows it exists.
 
Not to derail the thread, but if this is about hosting plugs, looking at Cantabile or looking for an appropriate alternate, download the demo from here.  XT is a good DAW including some impressive native plugs, but for the sake of chaining and routing, you are looking to evaluate the modular environment interface, loading XT as either a vst or vsti support plug into Sonar. The modular pane is where all the routing and connecting takes place. There is nothing lacking, and you got to respect the way it registers paths to plugins. Could have only been improved with receding support for dx/dxi.
 
http://www.energy-xt.com/
 
John
 
uh oh... Something maybe quite grim from the website.
 
Energy XT as the standalone DAW has been doing upgrades over the years. Now ver 3.0. The vst and vsti versions stopped updates back in the 2 point 5 or 6. New website has no mention of the plugin versions, though it says 3.0 can be used as a vst plug. No evidence of this though from the installation. Either to find a 2.X vst/vsti version or back to Cantabile. Sorry for the derail.
 
another brain dead edit...
 
Follow this link and you can still get ver 2.6 vst/vsti plugin
 
http://www.energy-xt.com/?id=0200

I've used Cantabile 2 for a few years in a live setting.  I had 3 to 4 controllers connected to a fairly lightweight DIY PC with a PreSonus FireBox.  When we would write songs I tended to use a wide variety of synths so I wanted to be able to recreate that on stage as best as I could. Originally I was excited by the fact that I could potentially have dozens of representations of different synths at the touch of a button.  In reality, it wasn't that simple.
 
The one thing I can say is that I never really did figure out the programmer's workflow very well.  He envisioned it being used with set lists.  This is great if you're a cover band and you write out set lists and practice them before shows.  However, when you're doing originals and you're apt to just say, "Let's do xxxxx"--or worse, when the guitarist just starts a song and you have to switch songs immediately--it can be a little clunky.  In fact, now that I think about it, most cover bands I've been in didn't really stick to a set list; we played to the audience.
 
Cantabile does allow you to preload every patch in a set list, so I ended up pretty much loading every song we might possibly play in a monster set list.  There's still a bit of a lag when you switch to a new song but it's very quick.
 
The routing takes quite a bit of thought.  I routed each virtual rack in Cantabile to a particular out on the FireBox so the soundperson could have control over the signal from each synth.  It took me quite a while to figure that out and even then it could be easy to assign a particular synth in a particular virtual rack to the wrong output.  Not to mention every time I wanted to try a new synth I had to set it all up again.  And the potential for wiping out a setting was very high.  Having to mute all other synths in the rack was kind of weird, but it made sense in a way.
I'm not sure how much the programmer of Cantabile has performed live, but there are some serious limitations that I had to workaround.  Organs were assigned to one virtual rack and controller, sample library type synths (Omnisphere, etc.) were assigned to another rack and controller, analog synths assigned to another, and when needed (depended on the band) I had a piano assigned to the 4th.  There were some exceptions where I needed two analog synths or maybe a double manual organ, but most of the time it was pretty much the same set up.  I eventually simplified the entire set up to just a few synths.
 
Does that make sense?  Each virtual rack represented a keyboard controller and an output on the FireBox.  In that rack could be multiple synths which could be layered or muted depending on what sound you were going for.  I had 4 racks and 4 controllers, but each rack might have up to a dozen different synths and each song would mute or unmute the synths I needed for that song.  The biggest issue was on the analog style synths and it's a problem that you face no matter what with these synths.  They have a tendency to jump around when you turn a potentiometer--especially if you've called up a patch that has a pot set to a certain spot and then you turn that pot but the physical pot isn't in the same position as the software pot.  I'm sure that could be addressed in some way but I would imagine it would be expensive (motorized potentiometers) or less than ideal.
 
It became less fun to play since the performances were more like programming for me.  I was always wondering if something had gotten changed that I didn't know about.  I had backups on the disk that I could fall back on just in case.  I even had a disk image and a second SSD.  I learned the hard way that anything can go wrong--although it's really no different than a guitar player breaking a string or a drummer busting a head.  Stuff happens on stage and you deal with it.
 
I would love to see a host that could be designed around the fact that we usually don't run stereo in a live setting, and the soundperson usually prefers discrete outputs from each instrument.
 
I have not used the new version (Cantabile 3) yet.  I'm between bands at the moment.

Great thoughts, Kenny. Thanks!
 
I am reviewing this particular product for publication, but the reason it caught my attention in the first place is because I'm on the hunt for a solution for my own live performances. This one (Gig Performer) looked to be particularly well-suited so I contacted the author, found him to be a kindred spirit. We spent 40 minutes on the phone talking VST hosts, synths and stuff. He's a touring keyboardist himself.
 
During our conversation he railed against Cantabile's poor UI, and how his product's focus is a user-friendly UI that musicians can grasp who don't also happen to be computer nerds. That led me to download the Cantabile demo and fiddle with it. And yeh, it suffers from the common syndrome of being feature-rich but unintuitive. Which prompted this appeal, to find out if and why Cantabile's learning curve is worthwhile. 
 
Yes, it did occur to me that SONAR could serve as a live host.  Staying within a familiar environment has its appeal, certainly. But SONAR's not really set up for that. There are too many things you have to use a mouse for. I have to be able to operate the software with my left hand while continuing to play with my right. Programmable foot controllers are one possibility, but I already have too many things on the floor now.
 
Thanks for the Ableton Live Lite suggestion. I did not know there was a lite version. A 4-track limitation that wouldn't be a problem. I don't have enough RAM in my laptop for more than 2 or 3 instruments anyway. I may have to give it a go.
 
Let me know if you give Airrack a go. Its price is right (free), and looks simple. However, as with most hosts you are limited to the plugins' own UIs.
 
The best feature of Gig Performer is that you don't have to rely solely on a plugin's UI. You can create your own UI with just the controls you need, and make them as big as you like. I made one for VB3 that I can easily see from 3' away, with just the controls I use while playing: drawbars, perc on/off, and drive. I also added D16 Syntorus (chorus plugin). That one has a hopelessly tiny UI. No way I'd try to use it onstage in a DAW. But with Gig Performer I was able to give it a large wet/dry mix knob. I threw in UberMod and ValhallaPlate for good measure, also with nice big knobs. It's similar to SONAR's FX chains, but with a palette of resizable control styles that can be arranged any way you like.

Gig Performer looks really good, if only for the UI. Using the extra 10% discount code you get for signing up for their newsletter, I went ahead and picked up a license. Brainspawn's Forte is too over-the-top for me, and expensive, and I never got comfortable with Cantabile. And VSTHost? Sorry, can't stand the UI.
 
I love the fact that you can hide a VST's GUI and map the important controls to their GUI.

I remember this 60s stereo test record with classic sound bytes:
"Do you know how to play Russian roulette?"
"... BANG ..."
"Aha, you're dead."
And that infamous department store elevator gag:
"Sir, I want to register a complaint."
"... BANG ..."
"Next please."

Hi Dave ,
 
I just pulled the link for Airrack after downloading it and giving it a go ....It just wasn't happening ....
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny

I did download and try Forte, along with every other host I could find, plus a lightweight DAW (Ableton Live Light).
 
You're right, it's very sophisticated. It has the feel of a mature application. But so does Cantabile (e.g. the only one that found my VSTs on first run, without me entering a search path). Most of the others had awkward idiosyncrasies that made me wonder if the developers actually use the software themselves.
 
I didn't have Kontakt installed at the time I was doing my initial testing (I've since installed it for Round 2) so I had no basis for comparing memory management. It's good to know that I can switch quickly between instruments. That's important.
 
Unfortunately, Forte crashed several times with an access violation, usually when attempting to save. That's not a deal-killer, though, since it's not something I'm likely to ever do mid-performance. I'd planned on returning to it today, but so far my day's been overwhelmed by day-job crap. Reality. It sucks.

Thanks, Bob. And thanks to others who have offered off-line advice regarding Cantabile, Forte and Ableton. Hopefully, reality will give me a little break today and I'll be able to get back to fun stuff.
 
Ugh, that reminds me, my gear is still out in the van from last night's gig...maybe what I really need is a roadie. Then it wouldn't matter how much stuff I wanted to drag around.

AllanH
I just received this in email
http://www.gigperformer.com/kvr-namm-2017
 
It looks interesting; but I have no experience with the product.

That's the one Bit was referring to in his first post (see post 8)

AllanH
I guess I could have made it clearer that it's supposedly cheaper during NAMM @ $99. But I don't know how "real" the 60% off is.

I paid $112. If I'd have waited, I'd have saved $13. YMMV.

Gig Performer is a lot of fun because you get to lay out your own UI if you want. This is helpful because most plugin UIs are designed for studio use, where you've got a large display and one hand on the mouse. Small controls, multiple tabs and tiny labels are not much of a problem in the studio. On stage, you need large controls, high visibility, and minimize use of a mouse or touchpad. This is where GP stands out from the crowd.
 
But with a list price of $250 Gig Performer is positioning itself with the big boys. Forte is $100 (more for the advanced Producer edition), EAReckon's BloXpander is $73, Cantabile is $69/$199. Forte and Cantabile are more mature and feature-rich. I wouldn't be surprised if GP settles in at a lower price point.
 
I've just turned my attention from Cantabile Solo to Cantabile Lite. The obvious attraction is the price (free). But so far it seems to satisfy my own needs just fine. I've got it set up with Keyscape, Zebra, Omnisphere and VB3. Next step: configure the touchpads on my controller to select them. If that's possible, Cantabile Lite could very well be my immediate solution.
 
For those who have purchased Gig Performer, please let me know (here or via PM) how your experience is going. I will be reviewing it in the March edition of SoundBytes, so all input is appreciated.