Splat
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 06:22:07
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We already have people running saffire pro 40s on thunderbolt flawlessly. In some instances they perceived performance to be better than before (which of course cannot be true, it simply is the same). That's pretty impressive. Focusrite says there are no issues with thunderbolt either. So until you can find me just one example of how thunderbolt can make FireWire less efficient, or actual issues where thunderbolt has incompatibility using firewire devices with adapter, I will simply assume your assumptions are based on mumbo jumbo rather than reality. And thunderbolt will be backwards compatible with later revisions so the adapters will always work. To say firms will stop selling adapters utter baloney, thunderbolt would have to die first, unlikely with Apples backing.
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2013/12/05 06:36:30
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guigz2000
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 07:34:19
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Well, to close the firewire/usb/thunderbolt thing, I would just say that: Nowadays: *ALL computers support USB, either 2 or 3. *No laptop support firewire anymore. For desktops,you can still find addon cards and mainboards,but they tend to be a bit old. *Few laptops and desktops support thunderbolt. Just check the number of mainboard that have thunderbolt compared to the ones that don't have it and we'll talk about it again. Moreover these cards tends to be on the expensive side. Too, there's still no PCIe thunderbolt card to add thunderbolt to desktops which do not have it (one has been announced by intel, but we don't know when it'll be out and how much it will cost). So: Yes,firewire is a bit better that USB2, but it's just a "on the verge of death" technology as were SCSI(which was better that IDE), Floppies, HD-DVD, etc.. I would definitely not take the Apple Firewire adapter to be something granted. Apple just care about Apple and it's definitely not sure they'll maintain drivers for windows for a long time. The important questions are: Will the soundcard enable me to do what I want? Will I be able to use it on my computers to come or do I plan to change both? Personnally, I don't know if my next computer will have thunderbolt or firewire. Thunderbolt is expensive and not mandatory on current PCs. Firewire is dead. I just know my current core i7 laptop only has USB 3.0 and that my next one will have USB 3.0 too. My desktop has firewire and USB 3.0. I like to be able to use my DAW on both so choice is quite simple. 2 monthes ago, I bought for my band,a new soundcard/PC . I had to downgrade CPU to get a thunderbolt (a shame). When choosing the soundcard, the choice was between an UAD Appolo and a RME UFX. We ended buying the RME which is USB and Firewire. The appolo which is firewire and Thunderbolt ready (500euros more for TB card) was just unusable on the bands private laptops (no firewire and no thunderbolt). With the RME, we are sure we'll be able to use it on any computer available. A very good point since it's good to have some spare in case of a computer crash. Also, the RME handle twice as much inputs as the Appolo, with less latency, even using USB.
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gswitz
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 07:56:06
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We're a niche industry. We'll spend a lot of money for slight improvements. If ThunderBolt can make life better for 1/2 of the home recording market, then I think it'll do well. Main reasons to upgrade... - handle more mics
- handle higher sample rates
More MicsI don't know if 1/2 of us need the extra through-put. I don't right now. For me, I can already record 16 mics at a time and to upgrade to 24 would be 300 dollars (24 bit 44.1). I wouldn't have to change my interface. I haven't bought the additional 8 because frankly recording that many mics and mixing that many mics is a PIA. So my bandwidth consumption is currently limited by my willingness to set up mic stands more than anything else. Raising my possible track count already isn't worth $300, much less a new interface. Higher Sample RatesI'm not interested in recording at higher sample rates because of the speed of my computer bouncing the tracks. The fidelity I'm getting at 24 bit 48 is pretty great. My potential track count goes down if I'm recording at 192 because the fiber doesn't carry as many tracks at that rate. Today I can record 8 tracks at 192 and 10 if I spend another 300 or so. I don't mix at 192 because it takes a long time to bounce the tracks and I can't hear much improvement. I have occasionally recorded at 192 when doing 2-4 track recordings and I think I can hear a minor improvement, but maybe they are just good takes. Hard to say. SummarySo for me to want ThunderBolt, I'll need a much faster computer. I think that would be the starting place for me. When my computer is twice as fast as the DAW Jim sold me this year, then maybe.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Splat
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 08:42:06
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Funny how exactly the same arguments are being put across for firewire as for thunderbolt. People are using firewire and thunderbolt as interfaces.... now. No USB 3 soundcards at the moment as far as I am aware? So do I conclude USB 3 is dead... of course not!!! " but it's just a "on the verge of death" technology" No less so that USB 2 - totally irrelevant anyway. To say something will die when Apple is fully backing it (and for firewire adapters also) is a bit of joke frankly, as well as the fact this is actually an Intel product and is featured in HP products amongst others. So you don't trust Apple - join the rest of the gang, that's not a particularly good argument however considering this is one of the most successful IT companies in the world (like it or not they can buy small counties with the money they have). There is no doubt that USB 3 is probably going to be far more popular than thunderbolt, just like USB 2 is far more popular than firewire. There is every possibility of this becoming a niche product or at least a good replacement for people who already own firewire devices, just like there is every possibility of USB 3 soundcards coming out next year, heck I may even buy one. These are facts, everything else is just your own biased opinion based on no facts other than you prefer maybe green to the colour blue. And you think something is a bit old. And NOBODY will know what will actually happen for another year, you are not Nostradamus nor am I. And probably the opposite will happen to what you or I will think, you just have to look at history... Amazes me that people think this is a game of top trumps, it is not.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Starise
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 09:25:17
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In answer to his original question, I don't think there is any reason he shouldn't use a USB interface. The average home studio recordist who tracks a small number of tracks simlultaneous probably doesn't really even need an i7 chip unless he is heavy into soft synths, high Track counts. A medium range computer running 7200 rpm drives or SSD with a basic USB 2.0-3.0 and the Focusrite should do what he needs in stride. The most prevalent ports on a computer across the board are USB 2.0- 3.0 I'm using firewire right now. Everything purrs along just fine on my Presonus Firetube studio at 24/48 and works fine on Win7 64 bit. I bought a TI card for my desktop MOBO...no sweat. Never rebooted anything,had driver issues or digital noise. Back when I tried USB it was 1.0. I won't even go there...no contest, as others have said USB has drastically improved. I think USB is simply the path of least resistance for many users, especially if they use laptops. When I upgrade my computer it will have USB 3.0, even so, if my interface is still functional I'll certainly be looking for a way to use firewire again. No reason to change. It works very well.I don't care if it's 10 years old. If it eventually dies or becomes incompatible, hopefully by that time 3.0 will be further along. Focusrite products work well and they don't break the bank to buy, neither do do several others.
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joden
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 11:01:10
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2013/12/05 21:30:32
OP should also take into account the inherent risk of ground loop and other PC usb noises that manifest over the usb circuits (even with USB 2) - a thing that is rare to non-existent in FW (and I assume TB)
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Geo524
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 11:45:37
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joden OP should also take into account the inherent risk of ground loop and other PC usb noises that manifest over the usb circuits (even with USB 2) - a thing that is rare to non-existent in FW (and I assume TB)
This is one of the reasons I didn't go with a USB interface and stayed with Firewire. Not to mention that the level of performance I've had with FW has been excellent. I'm just hoping that TB will take off in a big way for Windows.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 11:56:39
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CakeAlex, we don't really seem to be arguing the same thing, and I've lost the will to continue. Good luck to the OP with his new interface, I say! May he have many happy recording hours :)
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Splat
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 13:45:32
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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usa423
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 18:59:05
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My thoughts is USB interfaces are really only convenient. In my experience any professional audio internal CARD is much more pro...cleaner sound...more stable...etc etc. But there are times when one cannot upgrade to a card. Such as a laptop. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you use as long as it has the features you need to DO what you need to do. I would stay away from any usb interface (or firewire) that doesnt offer ZERO LATENCY hardware monitoring.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 19:19:53
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usa423 My thoughts is USB interfaces are really only convenient. In my experience any professional audio internal CARD is much more pro...cleaner sound...more stable...etc etc. But there are times when one cannot upgrade to a card. Such as a laptop. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you use as long as it has the features you need to DO what you need to do. I would stay away from any usb interface (or firewire) that doesnt offer ZERO LATENCY hardware monitoring.
Internal PCI audio cards do not offer inherently cleaner sound nor do they offer greater stability. In fact, A/D converters placed inside the computer must take far greater care in shielding to ensure lack of interference. Of course it's entirely possible to design although more difficult and/or expensive. The sound quality of A/D devices placed outside of the computer, regardless of how they interface with the computer (PCI, FW, USB) is purely determined by the quality of components and the design of the circuitry. The interface itself is inconsequential.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 19:29:22
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The bottom line here frankly is that "it doesn't really matter" - as long as certain factors are accounted for. If you've got a compatible FW chipset and audio device and you won't be swapping computers or laptops regularly then FW is just fine. If you need more widespread compatibility with multiple computers, then USB might have an advantage. But either way, both interface types will allow for enough track count and resolution to cover the needs of most users, except for those recording very high track counts at higher than average resolution. This is good news for all of us. It means that basically most interface types will work just fine. So what it comes down to is driver stability, latency performance, how suitable the I/O array is for your particular needs, and price.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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usa423
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 19:32:01
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
usa423 My thoughts is USB interfaces are really only convenient. In my experience any professional audio internal CARD is much more pro...cleaner sound...more stable...etc etc. But there are times when one cannot upgrade to a card. Such as a laptop. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you use as long as it has the features you need to DO what you need to do. I would stay away from any usb interface (or firewire) that doesnt offer ZERO LATENCY hardware monitoring.
Internal PCI audio cards do not offer inherently cleaner sound nor do they offer greater stability. In fact, A/D converters placed inside the computer must take far greater care in shielding to ensure lack of interference. Of course it's entirely possible to design although more difficult and/or expensive. The sound quality of A/D devices placed outside of the computer, regardless of how they interface with the computer (PCI, FW, USB) is purely determined by the quality of components and the design of the circuitry. The interface itself is inconsequential.
In 2013 yes its finally a level playing field. Now say all that what you just said 10 years ago and keep telling yourself its the truth. As I said "In my experience". A usb interface TODAY is much different then the external interfaces of years ago. I am just speaking what I know personally.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 19:48:05
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usa423
Brandon Ryan [Roland]
usa423 My thoughts is USB interfaces are really only convenient. In my experience any professional audio internal CARD is much more pro...cleaner sound...more stable...etc etc. But there are times when one cannot upgrade to a card. Such as a laptop. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you use as long as it has the features you need to DO what you need to do. I would stay away from any usb interface (or firewire) that doesnt offer ZERO LATENCY hardware monitoring.
Internal PCI audio cards do not offer inherently cleaner sound nor do they offer greater stability. In fact, A/D converters placed inside the computer must take far greater care in shielding to ensure lack of interference. Of course it's entirely possible to design although more difficult and/or expensive. The sound quality of A/D devices placed outside of the computer, regardless of how they interface with the computer (PCI, FW, USB) is purely determined by the quality of components and the design of the circuitry. The interface itself is inconsequential.
In 2013 yes its finally a level playing field. Now say all that what you just said 10 years ago and keep telling yourself its the truth. As I said "In my experience". A usb interface TODAY is much different then the external interfaces of years ago. I am just speaking what I know personally.
With regards to sound quality, it doesn't matter if it's 2013 or 2003. PCI interfaces do not currently, nor have they ever, inherently offered "cleaner" sound than USB or FW interfaces. In earler days, PCI and PCIe interfaces offered lower latency than their external counterparts, but not cleaner sound. Let's not conflate performance and sound quality - that's all I'm saying. For instance, A Lynx Aurora can interface with the computer via PCIe or via optional FW add-on card. Regardless of which way it interfaces, the sound quality is identical.
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Roland] - 2013/12/05 19:59:58
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gswitz
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 20:25:15
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Did Brandon just say I have to use a Lynx Aurora? I can't wait for Xmas!!
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Splat
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2013/12/05 21:11:04
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Brandon Ryan [Roland] With regards to sound quality, it doesn't matter if it's 2013 or 2003. PCI interfaces do not currently, nor have they ever, inherently offered "cleaner" sound than USB or FW interfaces. In earler days, PCI and PCIe interfaces offered lower latency than their external counterparts, but not cleaner sound. Let's not conflate performance and sound quality - that's all I'm saying. For instance, A Lynx Aurora can interface with the computer via PCIe or via optional FW add-on card. Regardless of which way it interfaces, the sound quality is identical.
Oh now you tell me. So my 24 carrot gold diamond studded USB cable, made on the international space station by well trained monkeys, which I bought for $210,000 from Snakes R Us isn't giving me the audio quality I'm expecting ;)
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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corgidaddy
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2014/02/04 00:56:20
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I bought a saffire intending to use it with a PC laptop for live performance of vst's. I bought a firewire converter for an input that was designed to interface cameras on the laptop. The results were undependable. Sometimes it would just stop. I could reboot and get it working again. The latency was very fast though. I ended up giving the saffire to my son. He has a Mac. He has had no trouble with it and is very happy with it. Then I bought a saffire 6 USB for the PC laptop. It was dependable but the latency was noticeably worse. It went from 5 ms with the firewire to about 25 ms with the USB. Now these both use the midi protocol. I don't know why firewire would have faster response than USB 2.0, but it does. If you are only using it for recording, more latency may be fine. Maybe USB 3.0 will not solve the latency problem. I see thunderbolt available now for PC motherobards. There are thunderbolt audio interfaces available too. It is reported to be five times faster than firewire. Strangely, there are no USB 3.0 audio interfaces and no USB 3.0 keyboards. Thunderbolt for audio is reported to be limited to a select few musicians with bags of money to throw at new gear. I gave up on live performances with the band, because the latency was so terrible. I heard that some PC motherboards that feature firewire are dependable. Some that use a different chipset are not. Could it be that firewire converts midi data into a different, faster protocol and reconverts it back when it has to?
post edited by corgidaddy - 2014/02/04 01:14:36
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2014/02/04 04:55:46
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corgidaddy Then I bought a saffire 6 USB for the PC laptop. It was dependable but the latency was noticeably worse. It went from 5 ms with the firewire to about 25 ms with the USB. Now these both use the midi protocol. I don't know why firewire would have faster response than USB 2.0, but it does. If you are only using it for recording, more latency may be fine. ?
What happened, when you lowered the latency settings using the USB 2? People have been using USB 2 interfaces with under 5 ms latency for a long time, and 25 ms latency was much already ten years ago, so I doubt this was a USB/FW -issue per se (?). AFAIK, most of the latency usually comes from the actual processing of the signal (>soft synths, amp sims), not from transferring it.
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soens
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2014/02/04 07:35:30
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Sorry if someone already mentioned these but, some things to look out for: 1. USB2 devices will not always work with a USB3 source. (My laptop has 1 USB2 and 3 USB3 ports. My interface is USB2 and will not work with the USB3 ports which leaves only one port dedicated to it.) 2. If you plan on using a HUB to rout several devices to your system, make sure it is powered by house current. Even then your DAW will not always see the interface. 3. Some interfaces have iffy drivers. Make sure your unit has the latest. At one point MOTU had drivers that did not behave right but they soon replaced them with good ones. Steve
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Anderton
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2014/02/04 21:33:15
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Some random factoids... FireWire has hardware to take over certain tasks, USB uses the CPU. This made a difference with older CPUs, but is no longer really relevant. FireWire 800 is much faster than USB 2.0. FireWire 400's bandwidth is theoretically lower than USB 2.0, but the practical difference is negligible and FW 400 can outperform USB 2.0 by a very slim margin under some conditions. FireWire dates from 1984, so it's a pretty old protocol. FireWire devices will work with Thunderbolt via an adapter, although not all PCIe devices will. FireWire can be pickier than USB in terms of hardware, but if you get it working initially, it will pretty much stay working. Don't expect to see a flurry of USB 3.0 interfaces. USB 2.0 covers most applications, and for really hardcore pro applications, companies will skip directly to Thunderbolt. Virtually anything will work if you don't need a lot of I/O. FireWire is no longer being included in many Windows laptops, and these laptops also don't have a card slot for adding a FireWire PCMCIA-type interface. Tests based on copying files via one interface or another do not necessarily mean you'll achieve the same results with audio.
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corgidaddy
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??
2014/02/04 23:19:06
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"FireWire has hardware to take over certain tasks, USB uses the CPU. This made a difference with older CPUs, but is no longer really relevant." O.K., that explains it. I have an older Pentium 3 cpu on the Laptop. I was running a graphics program at the same time as chainer. The graphics program displayed my song notes and set list. Forgive me if I smile when you say older CPUs. My first PC was an improvement over my Commodore 64, the Commodre had a sequential circuits add on card for midi. That first PC ran at less than 10 megahertz (XT). I assume that a Pentium 3 CPU would be considered slow by today's standards. Maybe for performance, I don't even need a new interface now. Just an Intel7 CPU motherboard and my trusty Saffire 6 USB will be smokin'...
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