Helpful ReplyAny reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??

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Mojo3432
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2013/12/02 18:04:43 (permalink)

Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface??

Hey Everyone,

I have only ever used a firewire interface, but it is now time for an upgrade.
I am trying to decide between a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 (Firewire) and a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 (USB).

I'll be using it on a PC with the new i7 Haswell chip and 32GB of RAM, if that helps.

Just wondering if anyone else has made the switch to a USB interface from firewire. If so, are you happy you did?

Thanks in advance.
post edited by Mojo3432 - 2013/12/02 18:20:11

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Splat
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 18:18:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2013/12/03 08:20:31
Firewire throughput is far superior to USB 2.
Thunderbolt is keeping firewire alive with PC's but that's some debate on how long (in laptops at least) firewire can survive.
 
Having said that I love my saffire Pro 40, and one of these days I will also buy a scarlett-18i20. You can hook them both up together for double the channels... that means you can adopt Firewire AND USB 2 standard.
 
If you can wait another 6 to 12 months there will be USB 3 interfaces. Hold out for that if I were you.
 
BTW I already email focusrite about USB 3 interfaces, they said that they don't do them.... but that the situation "may change".... So yes of course they will do them :)

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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Mojo3432
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 18:24:03 (permalink)
Hey CakeAlexS, thanks for the reply and the tip about the upcoming USB 3's.
However, is there REALLY a noticeable difference between FW and USB when recording only one or two tracks at a time?

Thanks

CUSTOM AUDIO PC:
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  • Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 Interface, Focusrite ISA Two Premp and Blue Robbie - Mic Preamp
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 18:28:26 (permalink)
I agree with Alex.
 
Besides that, if you have a firewire port, what else are you going to put on it?
 
Whereas, the USB ports usually get shared a lot. 
 

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Splat
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 18:29:59 (permalink)
If you are only running one or two tracks at a time surely you need to buy an interface with fewer channels?
Anyways - Well these is probably lots of case studies all over the internet USB vs FIREWIRE, but the advantage of firewire over USB 2 is it is faster, and it is dedicated, you don't have a zillion USB devices plugged into it that will slow it down or interfere with your latency.
 
USB3 on the other hand....
And then again thunderbolt may still prove itself.
In a years time things are going to be quite different. Honestly if your interface is still even just about acceptable keep it until cyber Monday next year then invest I suggest.
 
 

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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Mojo3432
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 18:39:53 (permalink)
I certainly see your point and you make a great case. I just hope I can get by for another 6 to 12 months.
However, if I can't, at least you have managed to sway me back to the realm of firewire.

Which brings up my next question...I read that the firewire Focusrite units have a Texas Instruments firewire card and therefore work best with other Texas Instruments firewire cards. So...that is what I have installed on my DAW PC. Any truth to this??

I always thought a firewire card was a firewire card...but I have been reading where a lot of people say they had to replace their cards due to incompatibility. Who knew?

Does anyone have any knowledge of such a thing??
post edited by Mojo3432 - 2013/12/02 18:51:49

CUSTOM AUDIO PC:
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  • Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 Interface, Focusrite ISA Two Premp and Blue Robbie - Mic Preamp
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slartabartfast
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 18:54:18 (permalink)
According to the manual your motherboard has a VIA VT6308 controller supporting 2 x IEEE 1394a (firewire) ports
 
http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1366/P6T_Deluxe_V2/E4398_P6T_Deluxe.pdf
 
 
As to whether you can get adequate performance out of a USB 2 interface: many people do and there are not a lot of circumstances in audio recording or editing when you would see a failure to get adequate throughput from USB 2 that would not occur with Firewire. Remember that throughput going out of your computer usually only has to manage stereo (two tracks) or at most five tracks. Going in depends on how many input channels you are putting through independently and how much data (sampling frequency and bit depth). If you are recording a humongous number of independent inputs simultaneously at a high resolution you are more likely to hit a transfer bottleneck. A reasonable number of channels should not overload USB2. One reason for the paucity of USB 3 audio interfaces on the market is that few users have a need for more than USB2. A Ferrari is undoubtedly capable of faster speed then a Hyundai, but if you are driving to work at 55 mph, you will not get there any faster.
post edited by slartabartfast - 2013/12/02 19:07:48
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Mojo3432
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 18:59:28 (permalink)
slartabartfast
According to the manual your motherboard has a VIA VT6308 controller supporting 2 x IEEE 1394a (firewire) ports http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1366/P6T_Deluxe_V2/E4398_P6T_Deluxe.pdf


Yes...that's true as of right now. I forgot to mention that I will be installing a new ASUS motherboard to go with the new Haswell chip. The new MB has no firewire inputs at all, so I will be installing a Texas Instruments PCIE firewire card.

CUSTOM AUDIO PC:
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  • Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Edition Running Sonar Platinum
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 19:02:08 (permalink)

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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Mojo3432
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 19:08:20 (permalink)
WOW...Thank you so much for that link Alex. Here is a direct quote right from that article...
"We would recommend using either a Texas Instruments or a VIA FireWire chipset to avoid any such issues."

Looks like I'll be good to go either way. Thank you very much for your time and input everyone. I truly appreciate it.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!! I hope Santa brings you lots of fun toys for your studio.

CUSTOM AUDIO PC:
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 19:13:45 (permalink)
:)

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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John
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 19:20:14 (permalink)
There is no reason you shouldn't use a USB audio device. It will perform as well as any other within its design limits. I have a USB audio mixer with 16 in 2 out and I have had no problems using it. It is USB 2 and that is the most common USB support.  
post edited by John - 2013/12/02 20:34:42

Best
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Sidroe
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 20:28:31 (permalink)
I used and still occasionally do a MOTU 24io which operates off of it's own pci card. Recently, I switched to a pair of Roland Studio Captures run in sync, both of which are USB. With X3 and the studio captures I am getting lower latency than the dedicated pci card! Now, I have not been able to wring the system out on 32 tracks live yet. But the results working in the studio so far have been phenomenal!

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Geo524
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 20:38:32 (permalink)
I was in the same exact position just a couple of weeks ago having to choose between the  Saffire Pro 40 or Scarlette 18i20. I chose the Saffire and stayed with Firewire simply because I had exceptional performance with it. I wasn't sure if I'd get the same level of performance from USB. One thing I can say is the Saffire Pro 40 is an amazing piece of hardware for its price point. I absolutely love the thing and it is Thunderbolt ready so if I ever need to upgrade in the future I will be able to do so.  Good luck with your decision.

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gswitz
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 21:05:15 (permalink)
Interesting timing for this question. I just bought a firewire cable to test my RME UCX to see if the round trip is shorter with Firewire.
 
The results...
Firewire
69 samples input
126 samples output.
195 samples round trip
 
USB
76 input
93 output
169 round trip
 
So for my interface, running with a 48 sample buffer, I get a faster round trip with USB.
 
There is the benefit of Firewire that I don't have to plug in the interface.
 
 

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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TStranger
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 21:46:01 (permalink)
I have been working with a MOTU series 828 from the Mk II to the Mk III to the Mk III Hybrid and have found the Firewire 6 pin standard (Firewire 400) to be superior to USB 2.0 - because of the DUPLEX nature of packet handling, and possilby the fact that MOTU has to convert the USB protocol.  Before I post the transfer speeds of the relative technologies, it is important to note that it is not the speed, but the packet processing communications protocol employed which is important.  Namely whether or not the standard uses DUPLEX communications as opposed to HALF-DUPLEX communications.  In half-duplex, only one transmitter may speak at a time, so it is like a single tunnel through which trains must pass while traveling in opposite directions.  One train must wait for the oncoming train to clear the tunnel before it can enter and continue - so that fact that the train travels 30 mph or 35 mph through the tunnel is of little consequence - if it still spent most of its delay time in the waiting queue.  So Duplex protocols mean that travel can happen in both directions at the same time, which is THE biggest deal, much more important than transmission speed.
 
The key is not transmission speed, rather the following in my best, experience.  This is why - my MOTU picked up in performance when I switched from USB 2.0 to a PCI-e Firewire 400 card.  The extra 80 Mbps in the USB 2.0 was rendered moot by its half-duplex protocol.  Ideally then, USB 3.0 is the best of all worlds, provided the chipset compatibility issue is negated.
 
Level of Importance
1.  DUPLEX communications over HALF-DUPLEX
  1. USB 3.0  -  DUPLEX
  2. Firewire 800 – DUPLEX
  3. USB 2.0 – HALF-DUPLEX
  4. FireWire 400 – DUPLEX
  5. USB 1.1 – HALF-DUPLEX
2.  Chipset compatibility
      TI or VIA Chipset 2012 and beyond - replace older resident sets with PCI-e expansion card
 
3.  Transmission Speed
  1. USB 3.0  - 5000 Mbps (or 4 GB/sec)
  2. Firewire 800 – 800 Mbps (or 75MB/sec)
  3. USB 2.0 – 480Mbps (or 60MB/sec)
  4. FireWire 400 – 400Mbps (or 50MB/sec)
  5. USB 1.1 – 12Mbps (or 1.5MB/sec)
post edited by TStranger - 2013/12/02 22:29:42

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Mojo3432
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 21:49:11 (permalink)
This is ALL very valuable input. Thanks to you all. Hahaha....now you're making my decision harder again. UGH!!!!!

CUSTOM AUDIO PC:
  • Intel Core i7 4770K CPU, ASUS Z87 PRO Motherboard, 32GB RAM
  • Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Edition Running Sonar Platinum
  • Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 Interface, Focusrite ISA Two Premp and Blue Robbie - Mic Preamp
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gswitz
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/02 22:35:39 (permalink)
I posted the question on the RME forum, curious how they would answer.
 
http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=91631#p91631
 
 

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 08:10:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby TStranger 2013/12/03 14:16:20
I own the VS-20 and a Focusrite saffire and I love the sound and warmth of the focusrite soundcards, the award winning pres sounds like no other IMO.
 

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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 08:12:36 (permalink)
IMO the wild variances and lack of standards in Firewire chips and interfaces is enough reason to stay away from FW interfaces if you are buying something new. Works on your computer now...might not work on the next one, etc. Its future is murky as well.
 
USB 2.0 is standardized, reliable, and plenty fast enough for most recording needs. Very high simultaneous track counts at low latencies is where USB 3.0 and other formats like Thunderbolt show promise. I've been using USB interfaces for years now after using PCIe and FW and don't see any down side personally. You must however makes sure you get a product with a solid, low-latency USB driver as it will make or break your experience.

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mettelus
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 08:50:36 (permalink)
I just purchased a Saffire PRO 24 DSP last month and was my first exposure to FW. It would be nice to be able to do the same test gswitz did above with it to get an "apples to apples" comparison - as it stands, it makes my old USB 2.0 interface look like a relic. I run the same 48 buffers ASIO and am getting:
 
Firewire
Input: 1.5msec, 65 samples
Output: 2.1msec, 94 samples
Round Trip: 3.6msec, 159 samples
 
Many items coming online with USB 3.0 aren't delivering the speed that USB 3.0 is capable of (or even close depending on what it is), so I have been disappointed with its adoption in general. Even "waiting" for Focusrite to adopt USB 3.0 could be a crap shoot.
 
I agree with chuckebaby... I narrowed in on Focusrite while searching, then threw the question into this forum and not a single person said anything bad about them. As far as Saffire vs Scarlett, it may simply boil down to personal preference as they are the same brand name, but I went with FW more because it is dedicated to the interface and "on paper" is superior to USB 2.0. (plus the feedback from all the folks kind enough to chime in on this thread, many of whom have the Saffire 40).

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DeeringAmps
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 09:00:49 (permalink)
I have the RME UFX and the Tascam FW1884.
Now admittedly the 1884 is "orphanware", but the UFX is not.
In doing a little research at the RME site, they feel the USB port is "faster" on most systems than the FW port (UFX has both); seems there are more "hidden" buffers with the FW.
The 1884 is very "picky" about the chipset, but again has been orphaned so maybe not the "best" yardstick.
You do (or should, we are back to the UFX here) make sure the USB port its on is not "shared" (device manager).
Jim Roseberry walked me through all that...
Just my nickle98,
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Mojo3432
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 09:07:50 (permalink)
Obviously the question of FW vs. USB will be different depending on the needs of each user. I can only speak for my own needs and the more I think about it....I don't think I would notice a difference between the two formats in my home studio. I say this because even though my PC will be equipped with several USB 2 and 3 ports, I won't be having anything utilizing them other than a portable HD for project / file backup purposes only. And that would only be plugged in AFTER tracking, processing, etc. So really, at least on my system, a USB interface wouldn't suffer from shared USB bandwidth. Not to mention I will only be recording one, maybe two tracks at a time.

So now you might be asking yourself why I would want or need an in interface with 8 inputs if I'm only recording one track at a time?? I tend to be a "set and forget" kind of guy. I like having a dedicated input for each of my instruments with the appropriate levels set and ready to go so that I can just plug in and play without having to make any adjustments. But that's just me.

CUSTOM AUDIO PC:
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  • Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Edition Running Sonar Platinum
  • Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 Interface, Focusrite ISA Two Premp and Blue Robbie - Mic Preamp
#23
Sanderxpander
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 09:29:48 (permalink)
Firewire is faster on sustained throughput, but irrelevantly so for many applications. And certainly when only tracking a few tracks at the same time. I would definitely go with USB for future compatibility.
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Splat
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 09:49:10 (permalink)
There isn't a year that goes by without a USB patch from ms. And I have seen several motherboards that have screwed up the USB standard so it suffers from same issue as FireWire. Regardless there are two very reliable chipsets with firewire as pointed out earlier. Swings and roundabouts always. Things will be clearer in a year.

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#25
Sanderxpander
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 09:51:11 (permalink)
Yet every computer has a USB port and will for a long time to come. Firewire has been on its way out for a while.
#26
stevec
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 12:43:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby TStranger 2013/12/03 14:19:16
Mojo3432

So now you might be asking yourself why I would want or need an in interface with 8 inputs if I'm only recording one track at a time?? I tend to be a "set and forget" kind of guy. I like having a dedicated input for each of my instruments with the appropriate levels set and ready to go so that I can just plug in and play without having to make any adjustments. But that's just me.


That's exactly why I chose the Scarlett 18i6 - pure convenience.  I haven't gone above two simultaneous input tracks, but for that purpose it works very well.   The drivers are stable and I can typically sit in the 1-3ms range when recording and go a bit higher when mixing - very little in the way of pops and clicks... ever.  
 

SteveC
https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi
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SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors;
Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO);
Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
 
#27
TStranger
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 14:39:46 (permalink)
I like the feedback on the Scarlett/Focusrite I/O's - this is good to know.  And yes, eventually if Firewire does not produce a standard which competes with USB 3.0 - then I am totally onboard USB 3.0 - especially given the reality that every device out there will need to employ it as at least an alternative, in order to sustain any kind of sales.  But that being said here is my experience on the upgrade pathway over the last few months inside a Gen 4 i7 box about 3 months old.  I would stay away from USB 2.0 sound.
 
I.  Firewire 400 PCI-e (Non TI chipset) to Firewire 400 MOTU 838 mkIII - Stable and clear but drivers would degrade after 1 - 2 hours and with any power saver or screen saver activity.  Livable.....but ehhh.....
 
II.  USB 2.0 Native (Intel(R) 8 Series/C220 Series USB Enhanced Host Controller - 8C26) to USB 2.0 MOTU 828 mk III Hybrid - Stable for 10 to 40 minutes and began to have ASIO integrity loss without a triggering event.  ASIO drivers had to be continually reset.  Could not employ over 8 tracks or 6 active VST 2 live effects while drivers were functioning without significant crackling and popping.  Windows 8.1 upgrade introduced a system event which would corrupt drivers totally.  Could not find or eliminate this after working for weeks with Sonar and MOTU.
 
III.  Firewire 800 PCI-e (TI Chipset) to MOTU 828 mk III - Completely stable and unaffected by system events, no ASIO driver loss observed thus far, with the system on for 8 hours continuous (never attained that before). Fastest total system speed I have had thus far :
 
2.4 msec - 226 samples
2.9 msec - 276 samples
5.2 msec - 502 samples  (96 samples per millisecond duplex compared to 44 duplex for Firewire 400 and 53 half-duplex theoretical for USB 2.0 -which I never actually could use)
 
But remember it is not JUST the line transmission speed but the inability to prioritize instruction packets versus sound, when operating in a half-duplex communications protocol with USB 2.0 and the degrading of drivers with a non-TI chipset.  The Windows 8.1 thing seems to have disappeared with the new Firewire 800 PCI-e TI Chipset card.  This despite my computer only being 3 months old; the native USB drivers/chipset seemed to have problems.  I have no idea why (maybe the chipset, maybe USB 2.0 drivers used), but I am glad it is gone.  ...whew.  
post edited by TStranger - 2013/12/03 19:11:23

TS
_________________________
Dell 4th Gen i7 12Gigram  Win 8.1 (x64)  -  MOTU 828 MkIII Firewire 800  -  Akai MPK49
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#28
Mojo3432
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 15:19:31 (permalink)
TStranger, that is EXACTLY what I have been dealing with.  It is absolutely maddening having to deal with the interruptions, fussing with the drivers, etc.  After only 15 minutes of working properly, it would ALWAYS start to act up where I would have to continually switch back and forth between WDM and ASIO drivers to get the problem solved.  And even that would only take care of it for perhaps an hour.  
 
I am however in the process of putting together a new system with a TI chipset for FW and will most likely end up with a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Focusrite says the two should play well together.  Here's hoping.

CUSTOM AUDIO PC:
  • Intel Core i7 4770K CPU, ASUS Z87 PRO Motherboard, 32GB RAM
  • Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Edition Running Sonar Platinum
  • Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 Interface, Focusrite ISA Two Premp and Blue Robbie - Mic Preamp
#29
Sanderxpander
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Re: Any reason I SHOULDN'T move to a USB interface?? 2013/12/03 15:23:42 (permalink)
Always good to hear from multiple sides. Though your results perhaps say more about MOTU than about USB. So far I've used succesfully on USB:
1. Avid/M-Audio Fast Track Pro
2. RME UCX
3. Edirol UA25EX
4. Reloop DJ controller/interface
5. Behringer X-32
6. Pioneer DDJ-T1
7. NI S4 mk2
8. Korg Kronos using Asio4All
 
No issues with any of them other than the odd driver update. It's worth noting that not all USB ports are identical. Some will be attached to a hub inside and some supply more/better power than others. This is especially true for laptops and very impprtant when using bus-powered devices.
#30
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