Helpful ReplyAny tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs?

Author
Skyline_UK
Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2133
  • Joined: 2004/04/15 17:55:09
  • Location: Midlands, UK
  • Status: offline
2016/03/25 05:40:02 (permalink)

Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs?

I've made 28 demo tracks for our band's repertoire, all nicely mixed and mastered in Ozone7. Each demo was a separate Sonar project.  In order to give them out on one CD I've tried hard to make them all sound similar in terms of loudness just using my ears, but I end up going back to successive projects to tweak their loudness via their Ozone7 controls and re-exporting. I'm in danger of getting into a  loop of continually 'shortening each table leg'.
Any quick and easy tips?  All I can think of is to import all 28 mastered WAVs into one Sonar project so that toggling between them is quicker and easier ears-wise, but then any that I change will need to be re-exported, is that ok quality wise?

My stuff
 
Intel Sandy Bridge i7 2600 @ 3.4GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads, 16GB RAM.
OS & Programs drive: 240GB SSD
Data drives: 1 x 1TB drive RAID mirrored, plus extra 1TB data drive 
Windows 10 Home 64 bit
Cakewalk by BandLab 64 bit, Studio One 3, 
Band In A Box 2016, Ozone 8
+ too many other plugins
BandLab page
#1
Sanderxpander
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3873
  • Joined: 2013/09/30 10:08:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 06:09:41 (permalink)
I don't know what "mastering" you did but "mastering" is actually a large part of the problem you're describing. If you're mastering for an album and the songs need to sound like they belong together you should definitely have them in the same project. Bringing their volumes and sound images together is part of mastering for an album.
#2
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5321
  • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
  • Location: Maryland, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 06:21:27 (permalink)
Hopefully someone with Ozone 7 can chime in. I only did the trial, but the standalone version seemed like it had a layout to support album level matching. Not sure on that though.

If you have Adobe Audition, there is a feature called "match volume" which can be run as a batch routine. This will yield "RMS normalization" and has a few other options. Other wave editors may have similar, not sure, but Audition does for certain.

Ozone 7 may already have such in standalone mode (first option), but if this is a one-time thing, the trial of Adobe is fully functional (or used to be - check first).

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
#3
jamesg1213
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 21760
  • Joined: 2006/04/18 14:42:48
  • Location: SW Scotland
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 09:00:28 (permalink)
Skyline_UK
 
 All I can think of is to import all 28 mastered WAVs into one Sonar project so that toggling between them is quicker and easier ears-wise, but then any that I change will need to be re-exported, is that ok quality wise?




 
That's what I've done in the past, it's quite easy to line them all up on one track and jump from one to another to check relative volumes.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



Thrombold's Patented Brisk Weather Pantaloonettes with Inclementometer
#4
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5694
  • Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
  • Location: Richmond Virginia USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 09:20:07 (permalink)
I monitor the loudness of songs as I mix them using an European Broadcasting Union (EBU) meter. This has a thing that measures loudness over time. I tend to target -14 dB for most music, but sometimes go for -12.
 
When I measure LANDR masters, the lightest level of compression is usually around -13.2 dB loudness averaged over the song.
 
In any case, I imagine I'm bending something fragile to squish it into a box. I want to bend it as little as necessary to fit in the box I have for it.
 
To this end, I balance the various bending I do. I try to limit very little. The Concrete limiter shows how many dB it has limited at the max if you keep it open during playback. This is handy. Usually if it goes over 2 dB, I look to notch the spots with a volume envelope or perhaps add some lighter compression to the track that's causing the limiting.
 
So...
Playback and watch EBU meter. Set limiting sufficient to get to desired level on EBU meter (like -14).
 
If limiting is too much or becomes noticeable, increase compression only until you get the average loudness you seek with the limiting restrictions you set for yourself.
 
Now, one song, you may have to increase compression and limiting and another song you can back off compression and limiting. This may be counter-intuitive. In other words, Loud songs may need less compression and quiet ones may need more. It depends on the musicians playing the songs, but a loud distorted guitar often needs very little compression. The distortion IS the compression.
 
When a band has every song played loudly where the loudness is steady, that's when I consider mastering it to -13 or -12 dB. There are few peaks that need to be limited to get those extra few dB.
 
I've heard a lot of mixes mastered much louder than -12 dB, but I never do that. These are like the LANDR loud mixes. It just doesn't do it for me.
 
Now, when I finish with a show, all my tracks are roughly the same loudness. I might say this track needs a little more bass, or I want to hear more vocal there. Loudness, however, is constant.
 
It is true that one band mastered to -14 I can listen to at a nice high volume on my stereo where another also mastered to -14 will cause me to turn it down. Again, this might indicate that the first of the two could be upped to -12 dB.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#5
sven450
Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 945
  • Joined: 2004/03/16 08:11:49
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 09:33:06 (permalink)
Skyline_UK
 
 All I can think of is to import all 28 mastered WAVs into one Sonar project so that toggling between them is quicker and easier ears-wise, but then any that I change will need to be re-exported, is that ok quality wise?


I do this, put Ozone on the master and watch the meters, then use exclusive solo to toggle between songs.  The meters are not enough to get the songs to appear the same volume.  Use exclusive solo and your ears to fine tune and you can get them to match nicely.  FWIW Studio One is fantastic for this. You can create a mastering project like you are attempting very easily and volume matching is much easier.

Sonar Platinum/Bandlab Sonar
Roland Octa-Capture            
Win 10 
i7 6700  16 Gig Ram
Some songs
Covers:  https://soundcloud.com/cygnuss/sets/covers
Originals:
 https://soundcloud.com/cygnuss/sets/originals
#6
SimpleM
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 203
  • Joined: 2007/07/30 22:14:00
  • Location: Greensboro, NC
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 10:04:37 (permalink)
Good meters. good ears, good dynamics/eq tools and a good plan it the only way to properly match songs.

That said, a Bluegrass number should not really be expected to match a Deathmetal track.

28 song demo?

Is this for a new member to learn songs or something?

If it really is a demo, I would pick your best 4 and match them up, much easier.
#7
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10654
  • Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
  • Location: TeXaS
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 10:12:59 (permalink)
It is a hard problem, esp. over entire projects that gone on for a long time.  Even if you get your songs to look the same (on the timeline and on a 'scope etc.) they can still sound softer or louder, esp. going from rock to ballad and such.  So finagle your meters etc. and get the stereo masters as close as possible, then listen.  Where science stops, craft and art begin.
 
If you shoot for -.3 dB when mixing and song mastering you won't go over when converting that master to mp3.  That also gives you some room when project mastering and matching the relative volumes of songs.  If you song master to -.1, you have painted yourself into a sonic box and either you won't be able to fix the overall project or your mastering engineer will shoot you since he can't either.

https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
 
there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
#8
meh
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 431
  • Joined: 2005/06/11 13:01:57
  • Location: Tempe, Az
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 10:39:04 (permalink)
Some excellent suggestions here.  You could go with a lot of different stuff here but I think the simplest thing would be a Limiter like Boost11 or the Concrete Limiter.  Make the output the same for all of the songs i.e. -0.3.
 
rafone

SONAR Version 2017.09
HP Z-420 Workstation
Intel Xeon W3680 @3.50ghz 
32g memory
2tb disk space 
Win2008 Server R2 Standard 64-bit
TASCAM US-1641 interface
#9
Blackiejames7
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 69
  • Joined: 2015/01/25 14:00:59
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 11:34:27 (permalink)
Yes indeed I agree with using tools like Boost 11 and Concrete Limiter.  I produce a lot of different styles of music and I always use Boost 11 and the concrete Limiter in the master bus they even things out and achieve a constant output volume.
You might also try using the Channel Tools in the master bus you can boost the mid and side channels a little to give the tracks some clarity.  If your tracks were recorded at consistent levels and your mixes are good your mastering should be consistent with the use of these tools.
 
Blackie James
#10
Skyline_UK
Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2133
  • Joined: 2004/04/15 17:55:09
  • Location: Midlands, UK
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 11:51:26 (permalink)
Many thanks, some excellent suggestions!
I'm going to first try bringing them into Ozone7 standalone where they can all appear as separate tabs to toggle through. I'm not sure if all 28 will go in, but even four batches of seven will help greatly.  I have Studio One so their Project page is a good idea also.  Thanks everyone!
 
SimpleM - yes this is our 2x1 hour repetoire and we're bedding in a new lead singer. It also helps us all when practicing. I keep them on a hidden page on the band web site.  The curious can have a peep here:
http://www.thephoenixtrio.com/backing_tracks.html
 

My stuff
 
Intel Sandy Bridge i7 2600 @ 3.4GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads, 16GB RAM.
OS & Programs drive: 240GB SSD
Data drives: 1 x 1TB drive RAID mirrored, plus extra 1TB data drive 
Windows 10 Home 64 bit
Cakewalk by BandLab 64 bit, Studio One 3, 
Band In A Box 2016, Ozone 8
+ too many other plugins
BandLab page
#11
S.L.I.P.
Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 949
  • Joined: 2004/07/10 18:00:29
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 12:27:48 (permalink)
Har-Bal has Match Loudness.  Here's a blurb from http://www.homerecordingconnection.com/news.php?action=view_story&id=463
 
"Use the "match loudness" feature in Har-Bal as a reference for your limiter. When using this feature, write down the gain number. Now pull the fader back to 0.0, record the newly EQ'd file and open the limiter. Set your outceiling to -0.1 and the threshold to the number indicated by Har-Bal. If there was an increase in Har-Bal of 4.3, set the threshold for -4.3. It works every time and the volume level is consistent throughout the entire album. This is an amazing feature in Har-Bal. I know of no other tool that does this."
#12
SuperG
Max Output Level: -63 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1371
  • Joined: 2012/10/19 16:09:18
  • Location: Edgewood, NM
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 17:42:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Skyline_UK 2016/03/26 05:22:34
In another thread I posted that the free offline TT-Dynamic tool will give you an overall RMS level for a song. It should be easy to pick one song as a reference, run the tool on all 28 tracks (takes less than a second per song) and get an rms level for each song. Next, simply take each song and boost or attenuate the output by the difference for that song from the reference song.
 
The nice thing here is that you're only changing the output level to match the reference song,  it is assumed that you've already mastered (or at least have a mastering chain in place) and your dynamics are already handled.
 
Of course, if you wish to take advantage of any added headroom in the case of an attenuation, or a reduction in headroom the case of  increased loudness, you'll need to do it at the mastering chain. The trick is you're matching RMS levels, and then adjusting your dynamics to taste (and available headroom).  
 
Me, I always master for 14db headroom from full swing (K-14 system). So, my RMS levels ares always hanging around the -14db level from digital max.

laudem Deo
#13
Sanderxpander
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3873
  • Joined: 2013/09/30 10:08:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 18:00:42 (permalink)
I think a major problem is that all these songs have been "mastered" without comparison to each other or consideration for the fact that they need to become one "unit". I appreciate the fact that this is just a demo for a new lead singer but on principle it makes no sense to master this way. Turning up the volume on some might reveal way more problems like different peaking behavior or bass discrepancies. You need to have them in the same environment when mastering.
#14
SuperG
Max Output Level: -63 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1371
  • Joined: 2012/10/19 16:09:18
  • Location: Edgewood, NM
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 18:04:35 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Skyline_UK 2016/03/26 05:21:56
Sanderxpander
I think a major problem is that all these songs have been "mastered" without comparison to each other or consideration for the fact that they need to become one "unit". I appreciate the fact that this is just a demo for a new lead singer but on principle it makes no sense to master this way. Turning up the volume on some might reveal way more problems like different peaking behavior or bass discrepancies. You need to have them in the same environment when mastering.



I agree in principle, but if all he really wants/needs is a loudness match to avoid any nasty surprises in overall loudness from track to track, it really is nothing more than gain matching.
 
Ideally, you'd want to master using closely the same chain on on each song so that they all "sound" the same, let alone their loudness.

laudem Deo
#15
cparmerlee
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1153
  • Joined: 2013/06/25 22:14:42
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/25 21:13:18 (permalink)
mettelus
Hopefully someone with Ozone 7 can chime in.



This is easily done in Ozone by setting the input level fader and checking the results using the Ozone Insight plug-in.  I think that plug only works with the 32-bit version of Ozone, but that's no problem.
 
Indeed, you really need to set the input level appropriately within Ozone if you expect the other Ozone tools (compressor, limiter, and dynamic EQ) to work correctly.

DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread  Memory: 16 GB      Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storage

sonocrafters.com
#16
jpetersen
Max Output Level: -61 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1499
  • Joined: 2015/07/11 20:22:53
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/26 10:00:48 (permalink)
1) Load each song in a separate project at the same time in Sonar
 
2) Find a convenient smallish size for the projects so that you can make a long cascade of all the songs from top left to bottom right. This makes it easier to flip between songs, see 5).
 
3) Add the mastering FX you think you will need to a song that is pretty representative and tweak until you are in the ballpark that you want all the songs to be. Write down which song it is!
 
4) Save as template and load that template into the rest of the songs
 
5) Tweak each song whilst flipping between your representative reference and other songs, starting and stopping playback as needed, until you are satisfied with all your songs.
 
#17
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14070
  • Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
  • Status: offline
Re: Any tips for matching loudness on a batch of songs? 2016/03/26 12:57:28 (permalink)
When I receive album cuts for assembly/sequencing, the first thing I do (horrors!) is normalize them all to a peak value of -0.5 dB. Then I listen and reduce the level of cuts that seem loud in comparison to the others. However if there is inconsistency in the mastering, then I fix that...for example if one track sounds softer because it wasn't limited to the same extent as other tracks, I'll tweak that first.
 
I don't necessarily agree that all levels should be matched. Slight volume variations can "lead" the listener along a particular path. On some projects I use short transitions between songs, and sometimes the level of these is ratcheted back quite a bit so that when the next song hits, it hits hard. I also think volume variations within a song can be effective, but this requires starting at a softer level so that the louder sections are more dramatic.
 
As a result in my own albums I establish a baseline with the first cut that's not the maximum possible level but has consistent dynamics. The goal is for the listener to adjust the nominal listening level based on that track. That way I have a little bit of room in terms of having levels that are both higher and lower than the nominal level. I consider dynamics an important part of music, not just within individual songs but in the "lost art" of album assembly in a singles world.
 
Of course, this assumes a listener who really wants to hear my music. It's not necessarily the optimum approach for commercial success...maybe someday there will be a return to listening to music that's collected into an album, and is designed more for taking the listener on an extended journey rather than isolated singles. I've started work on my next album and the opening cut is pretty brutal, but when it goes into the next number, which is basically just a vocal and acoustic guitar, the contrast is stark and (at least I think) effective. The plan is for the songs to tell a story and there are ups and downs. However these days, probably most listeners would listen to the first cut, not like it, and never hear the rest.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#18
Jump to:
© 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1