Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4?

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donitg
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September 09, 05 3:17 PM (permalink)

Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4?

Hi,

I ran out of the trial period of the lame encoder that is supplied with Sonar 4. And I personally believe it's atrocious to pay more money for mp3 encoding in a sound production software @#*$

I started using the command line oriented Lame encoder but it's really hassly to maintain different profiles for different audio qualities, etc. I then tried WinLame, and practically fell in love with it.

I'm just wondering if WinLame can be used as a sort of plugin to export mp3 files from Sonar directly. So that I can control the type of the resulting mp3 file. I searched all over for any command line options for WinLame, but didn't find any.

Educate me!
10x
Don.
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    Phrauge
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 09, 05 3:30 PM (permalink)
    There are several free encoders available.

    LAME

    Monkey Audio

    Ogg Vorbis

    Once you've downloaded an encoder, you'll use the Cakewalk External Audio Encoder, under the Tools menu in S4, for use in the export menu. HTH.
    #2
    dcastle
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 09, 05 3:31 PM (permalink)
    Winlame is a GUI frontend for a command-line program. Now you want a command-line frontend for a GUI frontend for a command-line program. Wait my head hurts.

    Just choose the few presets that you like in LAME and move the others to a backup directory (so you can get them back if you ever want them) and then you'll have just the presets you want. You can even change the names to make them more friendly to you.

    Regards,
    David

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    #3
    donitg
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 3:16 AM (permalink)
    Hi again,

    Thanx for that. Phrauge, i think you got my question entirely wrong. I know all about the CW external encoder config, but I want an encoder which has a GUI (like WinLame) to be configured through Sonar, so that it automatically accpets the wav file when I'm mixing down. I am currently using Lame for the purpose, but for every different type or quality of mp3 that i have to produce, I need to make a different profile. There is no dynamic handling available, and i need that a lot.

    Dave, what do u mean by Winlame being a gui frontend for a CL program? The gui version supports abosultely no command line parameters, from what I know. It just works on the same algorithm as lame... As i sed, i mix songs frequently at all bitrates ranging from 128 to 320kbps, and as stereo, joint, etc. It's virtually impossible to maintain, say 25 profiles or "friendly names" of MP3 mixdowns.

    If anybody knows any other encoder which can just take the input and output names from sonar, and allow the rest of the compression parameters to be changed dynamically, please mention.

    Thanks
    Don
    #4
    xylyx
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 4:11 AM (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: donitg

    Dave, what do u mean by Winlame being a gui frontend for a CL program? The gui version supports abosultely no command line parameters, from what I know. It just works on the same algorithm as lame... As i sed, i mix songs frequently at all bitrates ranging from 128 to 320kbps, and as stereo, joint, etc. It's virtually impossible to maintain, say 25 profiles or "friendly names" of MP3 mixdowns.


    What he means is that WinLame is just offering a visual representation of the standard LAME command line options...when you press 'encode' or whatever you do in WinLame, it is then sending the appropriate command line settings to the standard LAME encoder. As Sonar works by using command line settings for external encoders, to use WinLame with Sonar would mean sending command line parameters from Sonar to WinLame, which would then send these same parameters to the LAME encoder...essentially, nothing would be gained (even if it worked)...

    There is no way to do what you want unless you register the encoder included with Sonar. They should really make it possible to create visual templates for encoders (in a similar way to what you can do with external controllers etc), which would seem like a decent compromise for this issue...
    #5
    techead
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 8:15 AM (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: donitg
    I ran out of the trial period of the lame encoder that is supplied with Sonar 4. And I personally believe it's atrocious to pay more money for mp3 encoding in a sound production software @#*$
    Don.

    Hi Don,

    Cakewalk's licensing fees for the mp3 encoder are just an extension or passing on of the fees you would have to pay if you developed your own encoder. As a company intending to make money in the audio software business Cakewalk needs to generate revenue on their products which is more than the expenses in the production of the products; they cannot do that if they give an encoder away free but are still paying the encoder royalties to the mp3 patent holders.

    This is a real blessing with Cakewalk that is not enjoyed by users of other products: I can purchase SONAR without forced MP3 "fees" being "built-in" since I can purchase the MP3 capability as a separate product. But other products from other companies are building the MP3 software into the product AND charging extra in their product for it. The end result is that you are paying for the MP3 encoder several times over (depending upon just how many audio products you have purchased that have MP3 encoding built-in) which is a shame.

    Everyone making legally acceptable MP3 encoders is paying expensive royalty fees to the patent holders of the MP3-related patent suites. Once the patent expires then the situation may change.
    #6
    pwal
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 9:43 AM (permalink)
    fwiw, i use the razorlame front-end: http://www.dors.de/razorlame/index.php

    drag 'n' drop, encoding profiles, an' al' tha' ... however, i tend to export as wav from sonar, then bulk encode the wavs to mp3

    hth
    p
    #7
    Chrisma
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 1:05 PM (permalink)
    Do a search in this forum for Cwenc. It's app and that runs a Lame I believe and uses Cakewalks External Config settings. Since Sonar 4, it been giving an error message when it completes but the error means nothing because it completes the encoding just fine. Works great other than that.
    #8
    Clik
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 2:38 PM (permalink)
    Cakewalk needs to generate revenue on their products... they cannot do that if they give an encoder away free


    I'm missing something here. I thought the LAME encoder didn't cost anything. At this link

    http://lame.sourceforge.net/links.html#patents

    they list freeware programs that encode using LAME. How could a freeware program include an encoder that required the payment of MP3 "fees"???

    #9
    techead
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 3:30 PM (permalink)
    LAME by itself is not an encoder. It is a body of research source code and it is officially distributed by its authors only in source-code form. See the quote below from this link on the LAME website: http://lame.sourceforge.net/about.html .


    Following the great history of GNU naming, LAME originally stood for LAME Ain't an Mp3 Encoder. LAME started life as a GPL'd patch against the dist10 ISO demonstration source, and thus was incapable of producing an mp3 stream or even being compiled by itself. But in May 2000, the last remnants of the ISO source code were replaced, and now LAME is the source code for a fully LGPL'd MP3 encoder, with speed and quality to rival all commercial competitors.

    LAME is an educational tool to be used for learning about MP3 encoding. The goal of the LAME project is to use the open source model to improve the psycho acoustics, noise shaping and speed of MP3. LAME is not for everyone - it is distributed as source code only and requires the ability to use a C compiler. However, many popular ripping and encoding programs include the LAME encoding engine.

    Using the LAME encoding engine (or other mp3 encoding technology) in your software may require a patent license in some countries.


    Also, see this quote from the LAME tech-FAQ: http://lame.sourceforge.net/tech-FAQ.txt


    6. Does LAME use any MP3 patented technology?

    LAME, as the name says, is *not* an encoder. LAME is a development
    project which uses the open source model to improve MP3 technology.
    Many people believe that compiling this code and distributing an
    encoder which uses this code would violate some patents (in the US,
    Europe and Japan). However, *only* a patent lawyer is qualified to
    make this determination. The LAME project tries to avoid all these
    legal issues by only releasing source code, much like the ISO
    distributes MP3 "demonstration" source code. Source code is
    considered as speech, which may contain descriptions of patented
    technology. Descriptions of patents are in the public
    domain.

    Several companies plan on releasing encoders based on LAME, and
    they intend to obtain all the appropriate patent licenses. At least
    one company is now shipping a fully licensed version of LAME with
    their portable MP3 player.

    Note that under German Patent Law, §11(1) a patent doesn't cover
    private acts with non-industrial purposes. Probably interesting for
    developers is that a patent doesn't cover acts with experimental
    purposes, that aim at the object of the patented invention (§11(2)).


    So yes, LAME is free...you can obtain the software in source code form at no cost--just download it from the Internet.

    But if you use LAME to build an encoder you may be infringing upon patent rights unless you properly license your encoder with the patent holder as well as pay royalty fees per unit and annually. See the costs here: http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html

    Also, if you create MP3 files (or data streams) and distribute them commercially you need to abide by licenses and royalty fees for content distributed in MP3 form. These costs are here: http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/emd.html

    Developers of freeware programs that come precompiled with LAME are either taking a gamble hoping they won't get caught with their pants down by a court battle brought on by the patent holders, or they are properly licensed but have figured out a way to cover their royalty costs some way other than charging for their software encoder, or perhaps they are in a country where patents are not honored and thus are free to publish their encoder to the Internet.


    #10
    xylyx
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 3:50 PM (permalink)
    I see that no one has commented on the idea of including a way to make visual templates for encoders...this would absolve Cakewalk of the fees involved in mp3 licensing, save them the complaints/accounting of having a pay encoder and would result in templates for all major encoders being available in a short time from the users....it would seem an ideal solution for everyone...
    #11
    donitg
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 3:52 PM (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: techead

    ORIGINAL: donitg
    I ran out of the trial period of the lame encoder that is supplied with Sonar 4. And I personally believe it's atrocious to pay more money for mp3 encoding in a sound production software @#*$
    Don.

    Hi Don,

    Cakewalk's licensing fees for the mp3 encoder are just an extension or passing on of the fees you would have to pay if you developed your own encoder. As a company intending to make money in the audio software business Cakewalk needs to generate revenue on their products which is more than the expenses in the production of the products; they cannot do that if they give an encoder away free but are still paying the encoder royalties to the mp3 patent holders.

    Everyone making legally acceptable MP3 encoders is paying expensive royalty fees to the patent holders of the MP3-related patent suites. Once the patent expires then the situation may change.



    Pal, face it. I'm paying 800 bux for these 5000 lines of code. If they can't include the cost of an mp3 encoder in this, then I'm making a serious mistake How much can they possibly pay per copy? 20$ ? 50$ ? Don't tell me they're making a loss if they bare the endcoder fees. In that case, they wouldn't be making a new version of the software every 5 months..

    #12
    donitg
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 3:55 PM (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: xylyx

    I see that no one has commented on the idea of including a way to make visual templates for encoders...this would absolve Cakewalk of the fees involved in mp3 licensing, save them the complaints/accounting of having a pay encoder and would result in templates for all major encoders being available in a short time from the users....it would seem an ideal solution for everyone...


    I was just about to do that. Somebody up there in the core roots of CakeWalk has to think through this. With all the patents and junk surrounding this industry, maybe even thats not possible.

    But seriously, even I think that would solve all our problems. Geniuses who can build software like sonar shouldn't have a problem integrating such a feature. Mabye they'll even be the pioneers in the industry if they do it.

    Coming to think of it, wonder if some external 'genius' is capable of creating a plugin for sonar for the purpose
    #13
    donitg
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 4:00 PM (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: techead

    So yes, LAME is free...you can obtain the software in source code form at no cost--just download it from the Internet.

    Developers of freeware programs that come precompiled with LAME are either taking a gamble hoping they won't get caught with their pants down by a court battle brought on by the patent holders, or they are properly licensed but have figured out a way to cover their royalty costs some way other than charging for their software encoder, or perhaps they are in a country where patents are not honored and thus are free to publish their encoder to the Internet.





    How tuf is it for a smart guy in the US to sit and create such a piece of software and put it up in the net as though he lived in Bangladesh or Siberia??? There's got to be more conspiracy behind this. Or someone would have surely come up with something!
    #14
    donitg
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 4:03 PM (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Chrisma

    Do a search in this forum for Cwenc. It's app and that runs a Lame I believe and uses Cakewalks External Config settings. Since Sonar 4, it been giving an error message when it completes but the error means nothing because it completes the encoding just fine. Works great other than that.



    I tried the cwenc with sonar 4. It doesn't give me any output mp3 file as you say it does. The error is there all rite.

    Anyways, considering I'm thinking of mastering my outputs in WaveLab, I think I'll give up on this idea in the near future, and export from Sonar only as wav files. I dont have the money for WaveLab rite now tho
    post edited by donitg - September 10, 05 4:13 PM
    #15
    Clik
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 4:10 PM (permalink)
    Also, if you create MP3 files (or data streams) and distribute them commercially you need to abide by licenses and royalty fees for content distributed in MP3 form.


    This is very good information -- I didn't know about this!

    That OggVorbis thing is looking better all the time...
    #16
    xylyx
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 4:24 PM (permalink)
    Yeah, I'm getting to the point where Ogg looks like the way to go...be nice if this format could kill mp3 (or mp4), that'd teach the Fraunhofer group (or whatever they are called) to be greedy...
    #17
    donitg
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 4:29 PM (permalink)
    Pplz.. mp3 will be mp3 and ogg will be ogg. Nothing against it, but I can lay down my life in saying that ogg will never become as popular as mp3. mp3 caught on a rave, ogg dint. And that's sad. Period.
    #18
    techead
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 10, 05 6:05 PM (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: donitg
    Pal, face it. I'm paying 800 bux for these 5000 lines of code. If they can't include the cost of an mp3 encoder in this, then I'm making a serious mistake How much can they possibly pay per copy? 20$ ? 50$ ? Don't tell me they're making a loss if they bare the endcoder fees. In that case, they wouldn't be making a new version of the software every 5 months..


    Here is some of the math based on fees from the mp3 licensing site. It is $5.00 or $2.50 per unit sold. I don't know what the SONAR unit sales volume is but suppose for example they sold 10,000 SONAR licenses. That is then either $25,000.00 or $50,000.00 they owe in royalties to the patent holders just on the per unit volume plus there are annual minimums. Manufacturers like Cakewalk pass that cost on to the consumer by including it in the price of the product. $50,000 is a huge chunk of revenue which could be more productively spent on product features instead of paying a 3rd party company royalties for software you can build for free.

    In this case Cakewalk is passing it on in the cost of a separate product rather than including it in SONAR. If I had to pay for the MP3 encoder cost embedded in every Cakewalk product I've ever purchased then I would have paid for the dang encoder many times over--not to mention each of the SONY/SoniceFoundry and other commercial software I use. This is why Cakewalk's method saves me money and saves them money. I wish other manufacturers would follow suit so I can stop paying for the MP3 crap altogether.

    post edited by techead - September 10, 05 11:25 PM
    #19
    donitg
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 11, 05 5:07 AM (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: techead

    Here is some of the math based on fees from the mp3 licensing site. It is $5.00 or $2.50 per unit sold. I don't know what the SONAR unit sales volume is but suppose for example they sold 10,000 SONAR licenses. That is then either $25,000.00 or $50,000.00 they owe in royalties to the patent holders just on the per unit volume plus there are annual minimums. Manufacturers like Cakewalk pass that cost on to the consumer by including it in the price of the product. $50,000 is a huge chunk of revenue which could be more productively spent on product features instead of paying a 3rd party company royalties for software you can build for free.




    I kinda get what you're trying to say, but what you seem to be missing out on, is the fact that if they sell 10,000 licenses, they are making 8,000,000 bux. You're pitching 8 million against 50,000 dollars.

    Software build for free? I dont think I agree with it when you say you'd rather have it this way. Would you really care if Sonar sold for $799 or $810. No, you'll still buy it. On the contrary, this entire set of complaints about the mp3 encoder (including this thread ) could have been avoided altogether. People can work and maxmize their production efficiency, than sit on Cakewalk Forums and make (Thats me) and answer (Thats you) complaint threads.
    #20
    techead
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 11, 05 9:43 AM (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: donitg
    I kinda get what you're trying to say, but what you seem to be missing out on, is the fact that if they sell 10,000 licenses, they are making 8,000,000 bux. You're pitching 8 million against 50,000 dollars.

    I just wanted to show a developer's perspective and the financial perspective. I don't contend at all with the argument that an encoder embedded with the product is easier for the end-user to deal with. It definitely is easer for the end user because there is no separate purchase nor any need to fool with extra add-on software.

    And, yes, there is a huge difference between the revenue generated by the SONAR sales in a year period and the royalties being paid, but again, look across the entire Cakewalk product line (my example was really only looking at SONAR). If every version of every product (Pro Audio, SONAR 1-5, Project5 1-2, HomeStudio, Kinetic,...) sold has the encoder embedded such that Cakewalk is paying a royalty on every product sold that is a lot more money out of Cakewalk's treasury than selling a separate MP3 encoder product which is a compatible add-on to the rest of their products. And the consumers benefit because Cakewalk is spending far less on royalties which lowers product costs--plus only those people who actually need/want MP3 support will purchase the encoder--thus less units sold and less royalties paid.

    Cakewalk has weighed the user convenience versus the money spent on royalties facts in order to make the business decision they have committed to. That decision was likely made back in 1998/1999 when the Fraunhofer Institute began sending notification to companies about paying licensing fees for use of patented technology. That was the time frame of Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 which did include the encoder as part of the package rather than having to pay for it separately. As far as I know Pro Audio 9 was the last major Cakewalk product to include a non-trial version of the encoder.

    I'm just poking around these forums in my spare time so it is not costing me productivity to participate here. As for whether or not someone can be more productive by using an embedded coder versus spending a few minutes installing an add-o n encoder I don't think there is a debate--both are simple matters.
    #21
    dcastle
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 11, 05 11:19 AM (permalink)
    All this fuss for a $19.00 activator fee. That's less than 1/2 tank of gas, less than a nice dinner out, less than a night at the movies, less than a mic cable, less than a set of strings, less than ... well you get the drift. I think it's pretty childish to raise this kind of a rucus over a such a little thing.

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    #22
    Clik
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 11, 05 11:53 AM (permalink)
    Ogg looks like the way to go...be nice if this format could kill mp3 (or mp4)

    Personally, I don't care if MP3 or 4 lives or dies. I don't have an MP3 player, and I don't really make MP3 files -- maybe 6 times total, to send a few bars of a new song I was writing, via email to my friends, in a ridiculously compressed, barely intelligible format.

    If lots and lots of people want to play the MP3 game, that's their business. I however am really glad that someone came up with an alternative.

    Beyond that, I was inspired yesterday to see what MP3 players for sale out there would also play Ogg files. Happily, quite a few!

    The shock to me was to find out that artists are supposed to pay for the "privilege" of distributing their songs in MP3 format... wow! My band has never made an MP3, and we don't have a web page, but you can bet, if we ever do...
    #23
    Tomcat
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 11, 05 12:25 AM (permalink)
    LOL, personally I don't care either because I can simply export as a Wav file and encode in either SX-3, Sound Forge 8 or Audition 1.5, ALL of which INCLUDE mp3 encoding in the price of the program. All three also include CD ripping in the price. And all three are professional quality programs.

    Tom

    Sonar 4PE & 5PE, Athlon 64 dual core 4400+, 4 gigs ram, 1x80 gig OS HD, 1x80 gig Project HD, 1x300 gig Storage/Sample HD, 1x250 gig external archive HD, Korg Trinity V3, Yamaha Tyros I, Roland Fantom XR module with all 6 SRX card slots filled
    #24
    sub_circuit
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 12, 05 2:49 AM (permalink)
    ---deleted---
    post edited by sub_circuit - September 12, 05 3:01 AM
    #25
    donitg
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? September 13, 05 3:49 PM (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: dcastle

    All this fuss for a $19.00 activator fee. That's less than 1/2 tank of gas, less than a nice dinner out, less than a night at the movies, less than a mic cable, less than a set of strings, less than ... well you get the drift. I think it's pretty childish to raise this kind of a rucus over a such a little thing.


    It's not about the money. It's about principles. You know it as well as me. The world sux if i have to make such a compromise...
    #26
    Steven Bell
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? October 02, 05 0:55 PM (permalink)
    fwiw, i use the razorlame front-end


    I downloaded Razor Lame and tried to configure SONAR's external encoder to use it (without success).

    Is this not possible? Do I have to use Razor Lame as a stand alone?

    Steven
    #27
    dcastle
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? October 02, 05 4:59 AM (permalink)
    Hi Steven,

    Razor Lame is a graphical front-end to the LAME command-line MP3 converter. It is completely unnecessary because SONAR is the graphical front-end. All of the recent releases include something like this in the README.rtf:

    Cakewalk External Encoder Config Utility

    SONAR 5 supports external command-line encoders, such as LAME, Ogg Vorbis, Monkey’s Audio, etc. If an external command-line encoder is installed on your machine, the ‘Cakewalk External Encoder Config’ utility allows you to add the encoder to SONAR’s list of available file formats when exporting audio (File-Export-Audio).

    To use the utility, start SONAR and go to Tools-Cakewalk Ext Encoder Config, then specify the proper settings or the encoder you wish to use.

    Note: the SONAR 5 CD-ROM (DVD?) includes several pre-defined profiles for various encoders. These profiles can be found in the \Utilities\External Encoder Profiles folder on CD1. You can use these profiles as a starting point when creating your own profiles. Simply double-click the appropriate .REG file to add the information to the Windows registry, then use the ‘Cakewalk External Encoder Config’ utility to specify the correct install path of the encoder.

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    #28
    pwal
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? October 02, 05 7:08 AM (permalink)
    yes, sorry I wasn't clearer, RazorLame is the UI for LAME not the cw encoder

    p

    list of stuff
    #29
    GypsyJazz
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    RE: Any way to integrate WinLame with Sonar 4? October 02, 05 7:31 AM (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Clik
    The shock to me was to find out that artists are supposed to pay for the "privilege" of distributing their songs in MP3 format... wow! My band has never made an MP3, and we don't have a web page, but you can bet, if we ever do...


    It's not exactly like that.

    If you encode your MP3s with a program whose developer
    has paid the license fee then you are totally legal.

    They haven't (yet) gone after the artists for the royalties.
    They targeted the developers instead.

    The royaltiy is charged for each copy sold of any
    software that uses the Fraunhoffer codec.

    MIDI IS NOT AUDIO
    #30
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