Any way to use a VST Limiter as a recording input level limiter?

not effectively. Chicken vs. egg. 

By the time you get to point to process your VST, you have to have a signal which has already past through your ADC and into sonar. So essentially no.

Good preamps go a long way. I'm in the same boat. Can't wait to get the univeral audio preamp I'm looking at.

all FX are after the soundcard's A/D converters, so no FX can affect the signal before it gets printed to the track.

em,.. the Samson seems to handle only line signals..
so I assume you have a mic preamp to feed the compressor with a line signal..
btw. I really don't know why all the fuzz about using a compressor/limiter in your fx-bin.. it works..simple as that.
It doesn't prevent your signal from clipping if you overdrive the a/d converters.. but if you keep that in mind and keep the gain-staging somewhat moderate instead of "as hot as possible", then you have no problems doing so.. and I'd prefer using a vst instead of using a cheap compressor.. but ymmv.

Frank Haas


em,.. the Samson seems to handle only line signals..
so I assume you have a mic preamp to feed the compressor with a line signal..
btw. I really don't know why all the fuzz about using a compressor/limiter in your fx-bin.. it works..simple as that.
It doesn't prevent your signal from clipping if you overdrive the a/d converters.. but if you keep that in mind and keep the gain-staging somewhat moderate instead of "as hot as possible", then you have no problems doing so.. and I'd prefer using a vst instead of using a cheap compressor.. but ymmv.

it only works in the respect that it does compress the output like it's supposed to.  it does not compres the incoming signal - which I realize you're not saying that, but it doesn't work in that respect and that's what most people are usually asking about.  most people are asking if they can use a compressor in the FX bin to affect the incoming recording.  and that's not possible, so I have to disagree with your statement of "it works..simple as that."  because it doesn't work simple if what you want is for it to affect the incoming signal.

ok, I think we know what we are talking about, and I partly agree with you.

If you leave out the "incoming" and "outcoming" perspective.. and just concentrate on what will reach your ears, then you actuall can compress/limit with a vst in the fx-bin.. (as well as you can add and use reverb/delay/chorus/etc.. using Sonars input echo)
so it does affect the incoming recording.. realtime.. but it doesn't render/print the compression on that track.
for those people who want the "incoming" signal to be "rendered" then there is still the bounce to track option (ok, I know.. now this is a bit winding around the own axis and is refering to another thread)

for me:
pro vst:
- you can still tweak the compression/limiting afterwards
- more or less for free
- better s/n ratio
- less gain staging problems

con vst:
- it doesn't prevent you from clipping your a/d converters (but then if it would, you'd be doing something wrong anyway)
 
FIREBERD,
in that case it's legitimate and mandatory to use a hardware unit!

Ah, Ok, I see what you mean - from that perspective I understand what you're saying.

but for my workflow that wouldn't be a good way to use it.  maybe for others it's OK.

fireberd


My problem is not setting the level so I have headroom, it's the singers, and not just "amateur" singers - I have the problem with a guy that has spent a lot of time in recording studios in Nashville including doing some major label producing (He was the producer on Mel Street's last album, among others).

A limiter will take care of the problem.

The headroom he is talking about would actually solve your problem, as you could record at low enough levels to never have digital 'overs'.  Then you boost the levels back up in software and safely compress the peaks there to get things smooth. The big advantage of this method is you have a copy of the original dynamics - with a hardware compressor they are lost before they make it into your recorder.

On limiters - not all hardware limiters/ compressors are created equal or are up to the task of true limiting. Some may have a tough time limiting effectively on certain material and will have 'overs' unless set very conservatively - which is undesirable. And as I am sure you know many are made to color the sound somehow. After trying a few lower to middle end analogs, I remember being blown away years back when I got an Alesis CLX-440 (digital 20 bit 4 channel compressor) that had digital look-ahead and brickwall limiting - it was ALWAYS able to limit at exactly the threshold setting even at extreme settings and didn't choke on extreme fluctuations, and was very transparent sounding with no coloration of the input. Also was pretty average to mediocre in hindsight (it should have used 24 bit ADCs)- but didn't mess with my audio input and did its job better than some of the other units I tried. Plus it had some of the best compression meters ever to grace a hardware compressor...

I have since eliminated hardware / recording chain compression in favor of recording at lower levels at 24bit. If I was working regularly with many crazy vocalists, I suppose I might reconsider a really good hardware compressor.

fireberd


My level problems only happen when I am playing steel at the same time I'm recording vocals.  I'm not at the PC or interface equipment to really monitor levels.  I use a wireless Tranzport for start/stop/recording. 

The Limiter (not compression - there is a difference) should take care of the problem when needed.

Just for your knowledge, limiting is just a special case / application of compression. If you make certain settings on any compressor you are using it as a limiter.

The method of avoiding overs by use of 24 bit recording is done by simply setting the record input level low enough that no signal will ever exceed 0dB. Its not that hard to do (couple sessions will give you idea of how where to set it) and you do not have to be at the computer to monitor levels.

Anyway, it sounds like you are having fun with the new toys!

Cheers,
D

Well, I got the Samson and tried it out this morning with the singer when we fixed some parts.  It does what I want it to do and does not affect (color) the sound.  There is no difference in the vocal quality, the fixed parts sound identical to the rest of the tracks.  

But, this isn't something I'll be using all the time, only with certain applications.  

As I noted the Samson does the job for me, when I will need it.   I am recording 24 bit so that is not the "fix". 

Again, I don't want a "Compressor" - I want a "Limiter" which are two different devices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression



P.S., And your original question about using a VST while tracking could be done in theory, using a loopback, however it is very impractical and wont give you your desired results...

Some newer interfaces and converters offer Dynamics FX on the input stage, Like Motu's Cuemix, And Apogee's Soft Limit.. etc..

I was really bummed when I got the Vstudio 700. The marketing sheets promised compressor for each preamp channel... but the preamp is post ADC so it's completely pointless. If I'm going to compress post ADC, I'll just do it in a plugin. 

That kind of miffed me about the vstudio, specially since it was a $3300 investment =\.