Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine?

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CdrDave
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2017/03/20 00:38:08 (permalink)

Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine?

Is it possible for a Sonar project to get a virus?  Ok, not really, but...
 
I'm not so sure it's the specific VST, maybe Sonar, maybe even a combination of the VST and effects, but I can only get this to happen when using Cinesamples Cinebells VST.  I can work all day on a project, but at some point, when I load up to start again, as soon as cinebells sounds a note, the meter maxes out and locks in that position and you can no longer hear the instrument, along with the Main and any sub busses (currently EW Spaces) I have it running through.  If I mute the channels, the sound meter will slowly lower to zero and playback will work again until I un-mute Cinebells.  I can no longer use Cinebells for that project.  All other instruments (including other CS instruments) work fine.  I can start a new project, drop in CB and spaces or whatever and it works fine.  I have shut down Sonar, my interface and MIDI equipment, and completely restarted everything and still get the same result in the same project.  
 
Anyone see this before?
 
 
 
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20 Replies Related Threads

    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/20 09:22:41 (permalink)
    It may not be Cinebells. Various others (including me) have had similar problems with various plugins. See this thread.
     
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/The-good-old-Loud-click-peaking-VU-meters-DC-output-horrible-noise-problem-m3500258.aspx#3501909
     
    Cheers, Peter.
     


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    #2
    CdrDave
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/20 11:48:47 (permalink)
    Thanks.  Strange indeed.
     
    It has happened to me 3 or 4 times, but every time it has, Cinebells triggered the overload.
     
    I do hope Cakewalk is looking into this.  May be time to get 1 or 2 backup DAWS.  Time is money.
    #3
    dcumpian
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/20 12:34:37 (permalink)
    It's likely not Cinebells since that would mean Kontakt is the problem, which is highly unlikely. You could have a corrupt sample, but that's not likely either. The more likely scenario is you a an FX plugin on a track somewhere that is causing it. You should, track by track, disable all your plugins, test that your project is stable, then slowly, track by track, enable one plugin at a time and test. Eventually, you'll find the plugin and you can decide then to stop using it or live with the problems that it causes.
     
    Unless you submit a crash dump to Sonar, or give a detailed report about which plugin is the cause and how to consistently make the issue arise, I doubt Cakewalk is looking into it since they wouldn't know where to start.
     
    Regards,
    Dan

     
     
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    #4
    CdrDave
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/20 13:14:53 (permalink)
    Thank you.  I understand the point about submitting a crash dump, but I thought this was an existing issue as noted above in another thread.  Unfortunately, it doesn't cause Sonar to crash and generate a report, so I don't really have anything to provide.  It just peaks the meters and stops my workflow completely.  I did take your advice and bypass all FX to start adding in 1 effect at a time.  However, even with all effects bypassed, as soon as I hit play, the meters peak and sound stops.  However, when I mute Cinebells, playback resumes normally, even with all effects on.
     
    I do have 2 cinebell instruments stacked in 1 instance of Kontact.  Maybe I'll try separating them into their own tracks next.  That, or just stop using cinebells :/  
    #5
    dcumpian
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/20 13:40:42 (permalink)
    CdrDave
    Thank you.  I understand the point about submitting a crash dump, but I thought this was an existing issue as noted above in another thread.  Unfortunately, it doesn't cause Sonar to crash and generate a report, so I don't really have anything to provide.  It just peaks the meters and stops my workflow completely.  I did take your advice and bypass all FX to start adding in 1 effect at a time.  However, even with all effects bypassed, as soon as I hit play, the meters peak and sound stops.  However, when I mute Cinebells, playback resumes normally, even with all effects on.
     
    I do have 2 cinebell instruments stacked in 1 instance of Kontact.  Maybe I'll try separating them into their own tracks next.  That, or just stop using cinebells :/  




    It is not a common problem. I have only ever experienced it with a wonky plugin and I stopped using those as soon as I could find suitable replacements.
     
    Try disabling any internal effects in Cinebells itself. May be a buggy bit of code in there...
     
    Regards,
    Dan
     
     

     
     
     My music:
    http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.    
    #6
    CdrDave
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/20 13:41:11 (permalink)
    Well, this is strange.  Maybe found the culprit - will continue working today and see if it happens again.  At the moment, in this project, Sonar does not like Cinebells using Neutron on its channel and feeding into a bus with EW Spaces.
     
    I setup a new file with just CB, Neutron, and Spaces, and it works just fine.  So maybe something with this FX chain in combination with more tracks and various other effects at the same time.  :/    
    #7
    dcumpian
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/20 13:45:13 (permalink)
    CdrDave
    Well, this is strange.  Maybe found the culprit - will continue working today and see if it happens again.  At the moment, in this project, Sonar does not like Cinebells using Neutron on its channel and feeding into a bus with EW Spaces.
     
    I setup a new file with just CB, Neutron, and Spaces, and it works just fine.  So maybe something with this FX chain in combination with more tracks and various other effects at the same time.  :/    




    Neutron can be somewhat of a CPU hog, so it may be that it is causing an "almost dropout"...
     
    So, it sounds like you are using mixing plugins with virtual instruments? I generally don't do that until I have bounced everything down to audio. I do understand the desire to keep your options open, but I don't like dealing with creativity-killing issues like you are seeing. I don't start mixing until tracking is complete.
     
    Regards,
    Dan
     

     
     
     My music:
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    #8
    CdrDave
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/20 14:01:26 (permalink)
    You are absolutely correct.  I know that would be the best way to do it, but at this point I still find myself wanting to make musical changes based on things I hear during the mix.  That, and I often do library work, starting with the "long" arrangement, getting it really close on the mix, then chopping it down to 2-3 other versions (normal, short, loop, etc) that are basically the same in the mix without having to start over on each.
     
    That would be a great goal for myself this year.  Commit!   lol 
     
    #9
    bitflipper
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/20 14:34:31 (permalink)
    An effect plugin would seem the most likely culprit. Or conceivably an effect within Kontakt, although it seems unlikely such a bug would have escaped broader notice given Kontakt's ubiquitousness.
     
    A corrupt library is very unlikely, at least on its own, as extreme levels are only possible with floating-point data. I can, however, envision a scenario where a corrupt wave file (e.g. every sample is FFFFFFFFFFFF) might trigger a floating-point math error in a plugin. This would give the illusion of being an intermittent problem, since you'd have to hit a specific sample in order to see it.
     
    For your test project, try creating a MIDI track that hits every note and every velocity. I know, that's going to be time-consuming (copy-and-paste will speed it up) and you probably won't bother - unless you're like me and can't let go of a mystery until it's solved.
     
     
     


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    #10
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/20 22:34:40 (permalink)
    The problem discussed in the posts I linked to is probably not being looked at by Cakewalk because nobody has been able to find a reproducible recipe to create the bug. If you can find a consistent way to create the problem from a new project, that would be very helpful.
     
    My guess is that there is a bug in the FX bin code, since different plugins seem to cause this. In my case, it seemed to be the Sonitus reverb! Clicking the FX off button stops the problem.
     
    Cheers, Peter.
     


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    #11
    CdrDave
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/21 11:26:18 (permalink)
    And like Johnny, he's back!
     
    Everything was working fine when I shut down last night.  Load up this morning to put some finishing touches on the mix and POP!  Cinebells channel again.  However, this time, even with all FX bypassed, the meters will still stay maxed and no sound will happen until I mute CB channel :/
     
    I deleted the instrument from Kontact, reloaded it, and things started working again, except now the bus that CB runs into pops, until I turn off Neutron on that bus, run some audio, turn it back on and continue.  There is definitely an issue with the FX bin / chain.
     
    I get it, Sonar hates me mixing VSTs and plugins.  If I switch to only working with stems, do you think this will go away?
     
     
    #12
    CdrDave
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/21 12:16:29 (permalink)
    Self-answering question I guess.
     
    15 tracks of VSTs with 1 to 4 Waves / iZotope plugins on each is a little much.  Stems and FX only seems to be running smoothly.  For now anyways lol.  
     
     
    #13
    dcumpian
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/21 12:26:20 (permalink)
    CdrDave
    And like Johnny, he's back!
     
    Everything was working fine when I shut down last night.  Load up this morning to put some finishing touches on the mix and POP!  Cinebells channel again.  However, this time, even with all FX bypassed, the meters will still stay maxed and no sound will happen until I mute CB channel :/
     
    I deleted the instrument from Kontact, reloaded it, and things started working again, except now the bus that CB runs into pops, until I turn off Neutron on that bus, run some audio, turn it back on and continue.  There is definitely an issue with the FX bin / chain.
     
    I get it, Sonar hates me mixing VSTs and plugins.  If I switch to only working with stems, do you think this will go away?
     



    I don't go as far as stems. Just bounce the VSTi tracks to audio tracks and archive the midi. Once you are mixing all audio tracks, things seem to settle down quite a bit. Many VSTi's put quite a load on the PC due to CPU usage or sample streaming saturating the I/O bus.
     
    One workflow that works for me is to get all of my instrument tracks composed and arranged, then "Save As" a new project. At that point I can start bouncing and prepare for mixing. If I ever need to change an instrument track I can load the old project, make the change and export the audio. This works for me, YMMV.
     
    Regards,
    Dan

     
     
     My music:
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    #14
    bitflipper
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/21 12:31:13 (permalink)
    I doubt SONAR hates you personally, Dave ;) The great thing about standard interfaces such as VST is that all plugins communicate via a common language, allowing you to freely mix and match them with the assurance that there will be no incompatibilities regardless of how they're combined.
     
    I'd focus my initial attention on Neutron, simply because it's a relatively new product and therefore more likely to have some obscure bug. The symptom of ludicrously-high levels can only happen when a plugin makes an internal math error. The circumstances wherein it commits that error could be data-specific, which may be why it occurs with a specific sample library. Whatever's happening, we can be pretty sure the library itself is not at fault.
     
    BTW, what does the CPU meter show when this phenomenon happens?


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #15
    CdrDave
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/21 12:34:59 (permalink)
    By "bounce VSTi tracks to audio" do you mean just freeze the track?  And archiving MIDI - just copying the MIDI data to an empty MIDI track and dropping it in a folder or so?
    #16
    CdrDave
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/21 12:40:45 (permalink)
    bitflipper: Not 100% sure, but almost positive the CPU / HDD meters weren't abnormal.  Only the track and bus volume meter.  I'll check if it happens again.  Right now I have to meet a suspense, so I'm just going to play it safe, finish the COMP and only mix with stems.  Takes longer to make adjustments, but at this rate, it will actually be faster.
    #17
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/21 12:40:51 (permalink)
    Freezing the synth itself is probably your best option.

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    dcumpian
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/21 13:15:33 (permalink)
    CdrDave
    By "bounce VSTi tracks to audio" do you mean just freeze the track?  And archiving MIDI - just copying the MIDI data to an empty MIDI track and dropping it in a folder or so?




    I don't freeze VSTi's. I know others do, but I don't like to have my project carry all of that bloat around as I move through the various stages of mixing. Once I'm done tracking, I literally bounce and remove the VSTi. I always have my alternate project to go back to if I find something I really need to change.
     
    Regards,
    Dan

     
     
     My music:
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    #19
    bitflipper
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/21 21:17:41 (permalink)
    YIKES! I've just experienced the exact same symptoms as reported by the OP. Meters on the master bus pegged, no audio except for some clicks. I had to close SONAR, which had become unresponsive.
     
    Unfortunately, like the OP I've so far been unable to reliably duplicate it, although I have repeated it several times. Each time it occurred after adding one or two effect plugins to an audio track, specifically RBass followed by Roth-AIR. 
     
    Still experimenting...
     


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #20
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone else experience Cinebells peaking meters and locking sound engine? 2017/03/22 02:15:05 (permalink)
    Try using SPAN on the master bus. It will pick up Infs if they are present - look at the statistics section at the bottom.


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