Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug?

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PeterMc
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2015/06/27 01:32:07 (permalink)

Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug?

I'm seeing an intermittent output bug that maxes out the output signal. See graphic below in a stripped down project (note project is not even running). If I export to audio, the wav file is DC at the maximum negative value (which speakers don't appreciate). I can't find steps to reproduce this, but it happens in multiple projects fairly randomly and frequently. So I'd like to know if anyone else has seen this sort of behavior?
 
Cheers, Peter.
 
p.s. I have re-installed twice, re-installed audio drivers.
p.p.s. Re-opening this stripped down project, I can't get the bug again, but the original larger project often exhibits this problem.
 


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#1

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    John
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 01:36:16 (permalink)
    I have never ever seen anything like that. Not in Sonar or any other DAW. 

    Best
    John
    #2
    Anderton
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 01:44:07 (permalink)
    I've seen this with certain plug-ins. Which effects are inserted when this happens? I used to have this happen a lot with the VX-64 in particular. I haven't done any scientific testing but it seems to happen only if I load older projects that had it.
     
    If I close SONAR, unplug USB from the audio interface, plug back in, then open SONAR, the problem goes away seemingly every time.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #3
    mudgel
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 01:47:48 (permalink)
    Anderton
    I've seen this with certain plug-ins. Which effects are inserted when this happens? I used to have this happen a lot with the VX-64 in particular. I haven't done any scientific testing but it seems to happen only if I load older projects that had it.
     
    If I close SONAR, unplug USB from the audio interface, plug back in, then open SONAR, the problem goes away seemingly every time.


    According to the screen capture, no plugin is inserted.

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    #4
    mudgel
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 01:52:40 (permalink)
    My first question:
    What interface are you using? I'm on mobile so can't see if you have anything listed in your signature.

    Without a plugin inserted I would first suspect hardware.like Craig I've only seen this in connection with some plugin or another, also intermittent and not reproducible by recipe. No problem report issued by me.

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    #5
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 01:53:11 (permalink)
    I was starting to suspect Ozone 6 (64 bit), since that is in all my projects, and disabling it stops the problem - but re-enabling starts it again. That stripped-down project in the graphic has no plugins at all, although it started out having Ozone. I've also seen this happen on a Send bus with Sonitus reverb.

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    #6
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 01:54:47 (permalink)
    Mike - I use a Scarlett 8i6, latest drivers, tried re-installing them. I think the problem comes before the hardware, since I can write an audio file that is DC.
     
     

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    #7
    John
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 02:14:29 (permalink)
    DC? Direct Connect or Direct Current?
     
     
    To remove DC offset from existing audio
    1. Select the audio data and choose Process > Apply Effect > Remove DC Offset. This launches the Remove
    DC Offset dialog box.
    2. Choose from the following options, and click OK:
    DC Offset Threshold (dB). You can set a minimum dB threshold. If the analyzed DC offset is below this
    value, no removal takes place.
    Analyze Left Channel (dB) and Right Channel (dB). This field displays the DC offset separately for the
    left and right channels. Press the Audition button to update the display.
    Compute DC Offset from first 5 seconds only. To speed processing, select the Compute DC offset from
    first 5 seconds only check box. Only the first five seconds of a sound file will be analyzed when measuring
    the DC offset. The only time that five seconds is not sufficient is if a long fade-in or mute has been applied at
    the beginning of the file.


    Best
    John
    #8
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 02:43:09 (permalink)
    Direct current, as in the audio file is all -32768, the largest negative 16 bit number. No filtering is going to recover audio from that :) Interestingly, in a larger project showing this problem, Ozone doesn't see a DC signal (in the dither module). In fact, I'm beginning to suspect Ozone strongly, since there is no signal going into it, and DC coming out. Verified using SPAN either side of Ozone in the FX bin. Except my stripped down project didn't have Ozone in it (although it did in the beginning). Curious!

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    #9
    mudgel
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 03:36:17 (permalink)
    I use Ozone 6 adv. sitting on my master bus permanently once I get past the mixing stage and have never seen anything like this with it. I dont know what I can suggest but when I've had odd occurrences it's always ended up being some out of the way weird thing like a windows setting. I've usually only found a solution by accident.

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    #10
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 04:28:00 (permalink)
    Mike - 32 or 64 bit Ozone? I remember asking about a display bug related to Ozone back in March, and you said yours was fine. Others discovered it was only the 64 bit version slowing the display down. So maybe you use 32 bit Ozone. In which case, the current problem may also be related to Ozone 64 only. Craig also mentioned problems with a 64 bit plugin. Maybe that's a clue?
    Cheers, Peter.
     

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    #11
    mudgel
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 04:53:01 (permalink)
    I run full 64 bit. I did have some display issues around that time. That's what I was referring to in my previous post.

    It was only happening in Sonar but it was caused by a Windows display enhancement I had set. That is something like Mouse hover activates window. Once I switched that off all my weird Sonar display issues went away completely and have not come back since.

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    #12
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 04:53:40 (permalink)
    OK, this gets weirder. Screen grab below shows Send Bus B (with Sonitus Reverb) outputting at +9dB and totally freaking out SPAN on the Master bus - note the RMS values (1.$), correlation at -1, and spectrum maxed out at all frequencies. This is before Ozone gets involved. Que? (to quote Fawlty Towers)
     


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    #13
    mudgel
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 05:04:04 (permalink)
    I'm not in front of Sonar at the moment.

    Having a view of a bus at+9db isn't much help without seeing the tracks that feed it. The master bus is showing -0.1 so there must be something bring the level down.

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    #14
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 05:18:29 (permalink)
    There are 2 vocal tracks feeding that bus with send levels at -12dB. Neither have any audio at that point in the project. The Master bus is limited by Ozone's maximizer, where I set a ceiling of -0.1dB. This just doesn't make any sense. The project is fine until this problem randomly occurs.

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    #15
    rontarrant
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 06:08:19 (permalink)
    It sounds to me like your audio interface was hit by a power surge. Do you have it plugged into a UPS?
     
    I used to use surge protectors until I lived in a small town where frequent lightning storms and power outages taught me to use a UPS. Damage to gear is random, too. Sometimes things will still work, but do odd things from time to time... like what's happening with you.
     
    I'd try a few things:
    - another USB port,
    - another AI,
    - another computer (with your AI).

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    #16
    Red4Con1
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 06:45:45 (permalink)
    Yes I have noticed this very rarely though and yes in older projects have not paid attention to what plug in are used. One thing I've noticed is if you switch apps the effect disappear i.e. here is what meters look like after pressing stop
     
    Now anything you do switch apps, minimize screen, or press task bar will make meters goto normal.
    Don't know why image will not post.
    post edited by Red4Con1 - 2015/06/27 07:06:07

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    #17
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 08:11:09 (permalink)
    Yes, you're right, that's a great observation. If Sonar is not the foreground app, the meters don't max out. However, I exported audio and swapped apps in the middle of doing this. The resulting audio was maxed out the entire time, so I suspect what you are noticing is a visual thing rather than an audio thing. You gave me another idea - check the CPU when Sonar is foreground and background. About 10% foreground, 1% background. Very strange.

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    #18
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 08:14:20 (permalink)
    rontarrant
    It sounds to me like your audio interface was hit by a power surge. Do you have it plugged into a UPS?
     
    I used to use surge protectors until I lived in a small town where frequent lightning storms and power outages taught me to use a UPS. Damage to gear is random, too. Sometimes things will still work, but do odd things from time to time... like what's happening with you.
     
    I'd try a few things:
    - another USB port,
    - another AI,
    - another computer (with your AI).




     Thanks Ron, but I suspect this is a software thing. It happens when exporting audio, which doesn't touch the hardware. Also, I can change the Master bus output to "None" and it's still happening.

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    #19
    mettelus
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 08:42:16 (permalink)
    Are you sharing your audio interface drivers with windows? In the Windows sound card settings there is also "give programs exclusive control" to check... if windows is trying to reset sample rate to another application, that will cause serious nonsense.
    post edited by mettelus - 2015/06/27 08:49:20

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    #20
    panup
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 08:53:17 (permalink)
    The exactly same issue happened to me earlier today while I was doing some split editing during playback. Suddenly all audio was muted but one bus output was at max level. Resetting audio engine did not heal the problem but saving the project and restaring SONAR again helped.
     
    In the plug-in chain there were  Auto-Tune EVO, Waves CLA Vocal, Waves L2, PC-76 and QuadEQ. Bypassing/removing plug-ins did not restore audio playback.
     
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    #21
    bitflipper
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 09:05:41 (permalink)
    [EDIT: I was typing this reply at the same time that panup was typing his post above, so what follows may have been negated by panup's report.]
     
    You're right, we can be 99.9% sure it's a software problem. I think we can eliminate SONAR itself as the culprit, since nobody else has experienced the exact same symptoms. 
     
    That leaves third-party components and external dependencies (plugins, drivers, C++ runtime libraries and Windows libraries) and possibly even unrelated programs or services.
     
    The big question: when it happens, does it go away when you globally bypass effects?
     
     
    If not:
    - Try turning off the "share drivers with other programs" option.
    - When it happens, pull up Task Manager and note any processes other than SONAR showing > 0% CPU usage.
    - Think about any software you've added since you last remember this problem not being there, and not necessarily just audio-related apps. Anything that could have replaced MSVC DLLs. It might be worthwhile to download the latest C++ redist package from Microsoft and re-install it.
    post edited by bitflipper - 2015/06/27 09:17:00


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #22
    panup
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 09:20:28 (permalink)
    >The big question: when it happens, does it go away when you globally bypass effects?
     
    I didn't bypass effects globally; I deleted/bypassed them one by one (QuadEQ bypassed only because you can't remove it).
     
    Somebody should confirm what happens with the global bypass in this case.
    #23
    Doktor Avalanche
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 09:59:44 (permalink)
    As an experiment disable intel speedstep.

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    #24
    rabeach
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 13:04:11 (permalink)
    Probably not related but since ozone was mentioned, I had a similar issue when using 32-bit ozone 4 in sonar 8.5, picking a random preset from the menu in ozone would stop the issue and then I could resume working, In this case the meter would peg at max and white noise would output from ozone during playback.
    #25
    wizard71
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 14:13:33 (permalink)
    I've had this with ozone too.

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    #26
    ampfixer
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 14:55:28 (permalink)
    If this was all hardware I'd say you're getting a feedback loop that feeds on itself. I wish I could give a more educated answer, but is there any chance that one of the signal processors could be doing just that? Routing an out to an in?
     
    I'm really curious how you can get direct current on your outputs. If it really is DC then you will melt the voice coils in your monitors.

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    #27
    rabeach
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 17:53:12 (permalink)
    If I read the OP's post correctly he has an asymmetrical wave with only clipped negative values. There are many instruments including the human voice that record as asymmetrical waves but not to this degree. I would suspect a plugin or sonar's interaction with a plugin as the culprit.
    #28
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 18:28:39 (permalink)
    Hey Bit - yes it does go away when globally bypassing all FX. Project plays fine then. The problem returns when FX are enabled. I've systematically removed different FX and find no obvious culprit. I even had a project with no FX at all (see original post) that had the problem, but that project was stripped down from a larger one with FX. Craig and Panup reported problems that potentially involved quite different plugins to the ones I use. I'm beginning to suspect this is an FX bin/chain problem, possibly VST3 related also. I think the FX bin is spitting out -Inf for some reason and under some conditions. This causes SPAN to choke, and Ozone to limit to the maximum negative 16 bit integer when exporting audio.
     
    Cheers, Peter.
     
    p.s Tried disabling audio driver sharing without luck - still got the problem.

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    #29
    PeterMc
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    Re: Anyone seen this potentially dangerous max output bug? 2015/06/27 18:34:01 (permalink)
    ampfixer
    If this was all hardware I'd say you're getting a feedback loop that feeds on itself. I wish I could give a more educated answer, but is there any chance that one of the signal processors could be doing just that? Routing an out to an in?
     
    I'm really curious how you can get direct current on your outputs. If it really is DC then you will melt the voice coils in your monitors.


     
    Artistic licence - sorry. I mean digital DC, that is, the exported audio file consists solely of the maximum negative 16 bit integer. Hopefully my audio interface doesn't actually play this as an electrical DC signal. They should be smart enough to filter DC. In any event, I haven't blown up speakers or headphones yet :)
    I did check for feedback loops. The problem happens even with the Master out set to "none". This is definitely a software problem.
     
    Cheers, Peter.
     
     

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    #30
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