12Kevin
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Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9. Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?
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garrigus
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/06 21:14:29
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/06 23:30:07
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☄ Helpfulby Mitch_I 2013/11/08 09:48:14
12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9. Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?
I've used the staff view in Cakewalk for decades. There have been some improvements in X2 and X3: 1. The right-side track pane has a dark background, easier to see. 2. Snap-to functions seem to work better 3. In X2, you had to press CTRL when right-clicking to call up the process menu. Luckily, this has been restored so that you don't have to press CTRL, as this staff view function behaved prior to X1 and X2. 4. It used to be that deselecting notes was too easy, all you had to do was click on an empty area of the staff. Now you have to move the mouse a bit as well. This is definitely better in that you won't accidentally unselect a group of notes. 5. The use of keybinding note values is far faster than having to select note values from little icons on the screen. At first, like most people who use the staff view, I protested. But now I find just hitting Q for quarter or e for eighth, etc. is a more efficient way of doing it. The Sonar staff view has the same limitations it has had from the beginning: 1. Improper notation of tied/dotted triplets 2. Inability to notate 32nd note triplets and 64th notes. After studying the staff views fairly intensively in Cubase and Digital Performer for Windows, I realized that Sonar's limitations are not really an issue for me (I am a classically trained composer and have written much virtual orchestral music, complex contrapuntal music in long-form). Here's why: When I need a real score I use Sibelius. Sonar's staff view was never meant to be a publish-quality scoring program like Sibelius. None of the DAW notation programs can compare to Sibelius. Cubase's staff view definitely has a lot more symbols, but again, I don't need them because I wouldn't do a finished score in a DAW. Also Cubase's staff view is very clunky to use. Digital Performer's staff view has some issues too: It cannot display dotted triplets correctly either (although it displays tied triplets correctly). I think of the staff view in Sonar as a MIDI input/editing tool, nothing less and nothing more. Since Sonar plays the tied and dotted triplets correctly and since Sonar plays the 32nd note triplets and 64th notes correctly, I really don't have an issue with these limitations. Compared to other DAWs, Sonar has a superior event list (color coding), it has a superior patch management system, it has a superior windows management system and a whole host of other things that I love about it. I made peace with the staff view because it is the right tool for creating complex orchestral scores--IF you don't have OCD and expect the score to always look exactly the way it should while composing. As I said, I export to Sibelius to create a finished score anyway, so it has no meaningful impact on the precision and quality of my compositions, the quality of my recordings and the quality of my scores. Jerry www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
post edited by jsg - 2013/11/07 21:30:32
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pbognar
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/07 00:20:11
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jsg
12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9. Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?
I've used the staff view in Cakewalk for decades. There have been some improvements in X2 and X3:
1. The right-side track pane has a dark background, easier to see.
2. Snap-to functions seem to work better
3. In X2, you had to press CTRL when right-clicking to call up the process menu. Luckily, this has been restored so that you don't have to press CTRL, as this staff view function behaved prior to X1 and X2.
4. It used to be that deselecting notes was too easy, all you had to do was click on an empty area of the staff. Now you have to move the mouse a bit as well. This is definitely better in that you won't accidentally unselect a group of notes.
5. The use of keybinding note values is far faster than having to select note values from little icons on the screen. At first, like most people who use the staff view, I protested. But now I find just hitting Q for quarter or e for eighth, etc. is a more efficient way of doing it.
The Sonar staff view has the same limitations it has had from the beginning:
1. Improper notation of tied/dotted triplets
2. Inability to notate 32nd note triplets and 64th notes.
After studying the staff views fairly intensively in Cubase and Digital Performer for Windows, I realized that Sonar's limitations are not really an issue for me (I am a classically trained composer and have written much virtual orchestral music, complex contrapuntal music in long-form). Here's why:
When I need a real score I use Sibelius. Sonar's staff view was never meant to be a publish-quality scoring program like Sibelius. None of the DAW notation programs can compare to Sibelius. Cubase's staff view definitely has a lot more symbols, but again, I don't need them because I wouldn't do a finished score in a DAW. Also Cubase's staff view is very clunky to use. Digital Performer's staff view has some issues too: It cannot display dotted triplets correctly either (although it displays tied triplets correctly). I think of the staff view in Sonar as a MIDI input/editing tool, nothing less and nothing more. Since Sonar plays the tied and dotted triplets correctly and since Sonar plays the 32nd note triplets and 64th notes correctly, I really don't have an issue with these limitations.
Compared to other DAWs, Sonar has a superior event list (color coding), it has a superior patch management system, it has a superior windows management system and a whole host of other things that I love about it. I made peace with the staff view because it is the right tool for creating complex orchestral scores--IF you don't have OCD and expect the score to always look exactly the way it should while composing. As I said, I export to Sibelius to create a finished score anyway, so it has no meaningful impact on the precision and quality of my compositions, the quality of my recordings and the quality of my scores.
As far as vocal tuning, I only work with trained, professional singers whose intonation is good so I don't need to mess with adjusting vocal pitches, I'd rather just do another take if an occasional note is sharp or flat...
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
@jsg - Given Sonar has the 2 major notation limitations you mentioned, I'm not following when you say "Since Sonar plays the tied and dotted triplets correctly and since Sonar plays the 32nd note triplets and 64th notes correctly". How do you get the tied and dotted triplets / 32nd note triplets and 64th notes into Sonar? Do play them in or input them in the PRV? Let's say you have a phrase which has a string of 16th note triplets, but maybe they are not in groups of 3 or they don't begin on a beat, or there are embedded 16th note rests? I've found it impossible to enter this type of information using the SV - for these types of things, I've had to resort to the PRV. Any tips?
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/07 00:40:26
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☄ Helpfulby pbognar 2013/11/08 23:46:41
pbognar
jsg
12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9. Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?
I've used the staff view in Cakewalk for decades. There have been some improvements in X2 and X3:
1. The right-side track pane has a dark background, easier to see.
2. Snap-to functions seem to work better
3. In X2, you had to press CTRL when right-clicking to call up the process menu. Luckily, this has been restored so that you don't have to press CTRL, as this staff view function behaved prior to X1 and X2.
4. It used to be that deselecting notes was too easy, all you had to do was click on an empty area of the staff. Now you have to move the mouse a bit as well. This is definitely better in that you won't accidentally unselect a group of notes.
5. The use of keybinding note values is far faster than having to select note values from little icons on the screen. At first, like most people who use the staff view, I protested. But now I find just hitting Q for quarter or e for eighth, etc. is a more efficient way of doing it.
The Sonar staff view has the same limitations it has had from the beginning:
1. Improper notation of tied/dotted triplets
2. Inability to notate 32nd note triplets and 64th notes.
After studying the staff views fairly intensively in Cubase and Digital Performer for Windows, I realized that Sonar's limitations are not really an issue for me (I am a classically trained composer and have written much virtual orchestral music, complex contrapuntal music in long-form). Here's why:
When I need a real score I use Sibelius. Sonar's staff view was never meant to be a publish-quality scoring program like Sibelius. None of the DAW notation programs can compare to Sibelius. Cubase's staff view definitely has a lot more symbols, but again, I don't need them because I wouldn't do a finished score in a DAW. Also Cubase's staff view is very clunky to use. Digital Performer's staff view has some issues too: It cannot display dotted triplets correctly either (although it displays tied triplets correctly). I think of the staff view in Sonar as a MIDI input/editing tool, nothing less and nothing more. Since Sonar plays the tied and dotted triplets correctly and since Sonar plays the 32nd note triplets and 64th notes correctly, I really don't have an issue with these limitations.
Compared to other DAWs, Sonar has a superior event list (color coding), it has a superior patch management system, it has a superior windows management system and a whole host of other things that I love about it. I made peace with the staff view because it is the right tool for creating complex orchestral scores--IF you don't have OCD and expect the score to always look exactly the way it should while composing. As I said, I export to Sibelius to create a finished score anyway, so it has no meaningful impact on the precision and quality of my compositions, the quality of my recordings and the quality of my scores.
As far as vocal tuning, I only work with trained, professional singers whose intonation is good so I don't need to mess with adjusting vocal pitches, I'd rather just do another take if an occasional note is sharp or flat...
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
@jsg - Given Sonar has the 2 major notation limitations you mentioned, I'm not following when you say "Since Sonar plays the tied and dotted triplets correctly and since Sonar plays the 32nd note triplets and 64th notes correctly". How do you get the tied and dotted triplets / 32nd note triplets and 64th notes into Sonar? Do play them in or input them in the PRV?
Let's say you have a phrase which has a string of 16th note triplets, but maybe they are not in groups of 3 or they don't begin on a beat, or there are embedded 16th note rests? I've found it impossible to enter this type of information using the SV - for these types of things, I've had to resort to the PRV. Any tips?
I can play them in, or I can pop the notes onto the staff. Either way, they won't look right, but they will SOUND right. Yeah, here's a tip: Let's say you begin a phrase with the 3rd note of a 16th note triplet. With a timebase of 480, each sixteenth triplet gets 40 ticks, and the 3rd note of that triplet (let's say its on measure 22 beat 3) would be placed on the staff at 22 3 80. If my memory serves me correctly I think I even did some embedded triplets within triplets a few times, again, its just simple math to figure out what tick the note goes on. Of course this is easier and more likely to help if I could demonstrate rather than explain ;>) If you want to use tied and/or dotted triplets, no problem. Just figure out where they go relative to the timebase and the number of ticks of the note, and you'll know where they go. If you have your note resolution on its highest value (which I never change), the tied and/or dotted triplet will look a little weird, but plays back exactly as it should. Believe me it works, listen to any of my orchestral works and you'll see Sonar's staff view gets the job done. Let's say you want to enter a group of septuplets. Again, with a timebase of 480, each septuplet gets 68.57 ticks. Of course you have to round off to 69 ticks, but again, this is totally doable in Sonar. I have never once, in all my years of using Sonar used the PRV. The long-standing wrong displays of tied/dotted triplets is really no more than a minor nuisance, having no effect on the capacity to enter rhythms on off-beats, weak beats, groups of 7, 11, or whatever. Hope this helps! Jerry www.jerrygerber.comwww.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
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pbognar
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/07 23:53:21
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jsg
I can play them in, or I can pop the notes onto the staff. Either way, they won't look right, but they will SOUND right.
Yeah, here's a tip: Let's say you begin a phrase with the 3rd note of a 16th note triplet. With a timebase of 480, each sixteenth triplet gets 40 ticks, and the 3rd note of that triplet (let's say its on measure 22 beat 3) would be placed on the staff at 22 3 80. If my memory serves me correctly I think I even did some embedded triplets within triplets a few times, again, its just simple math to figure out what tick the note goes on. Of course this is easier and more likely to help if I could demonstrate rather than explain ;>)
If you want to use tied and/or dotted triplets, no problem. Just figure out where they go relative to the timebase and the number of ticks of the note, and you'll know where they go. If you have your note resolution on its highest value (which I never change), the tied and/or dotted triplet will look a little weird, but plays back exactly as it should. Believe me it works, listen to any of my orchestral works and you'll see Sonar's staff view gets the job done.
Let's say you want to enter a group of septuplets. Again, with a timebase of 480, each septuplet gets 68.57 ticks. Of course you have to round off to 69 ticks, but again, this is totally doable in Sonar.
I have never once, in all my years of using Sonar used the PRV.
The long-standing wrong displays of tied/dotted triplets is really no more than a minor nuisance, having no effect on the capacity to enter rhythms on off-beats, weak beats, groups of 7, 11, or whatever.
Hope this helps!
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
Your tips got me to sit down and try some things with the SV. I rediscovered the <shift><right/left arrow> key combinations to step through the timeline by the currently selected note duration (this means I don't need to memorize tick values). This made it easy to position myself to the 2nd 16th triplet of the 2nd beat - pretty cool. What would be even nicer is if the quarter note bar ruler guide above the staff would display gradiations which match the duration you have currently selected, instead of just the quarter note lines. It would be even nicer if there was a giant aim assist cross which graphically showed you where you were on the time line when moving the mouse with the pencil tool for inserting notes - but it's pretty nice that as you move the mouse left and right, the bar / beat / tick are constantly updated. I have to agree that given all the other cool functions Sonar has, I could get used to the limitations of the SV, because unlike you, I am not classically trained, but I prefer notation for entering some things, and fixing existing things in the SV. I will probably never enter septuplets, however how are you able to set a non-duration so that you can position yourself at something like 22 3 69? Pete
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vintagevibe
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 00:30:38
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Sibelius great for printed scores etc.. but if you want to COMPOSE in notation Cubase is pretty incredible. It does several things better than Sibelius and some things Sibelius doesn't do at all. Although it is primarily a DAW and not as good as Sibelius its notation was specifically designed to get professional results and does a great job for quite a few tasks. Sibelius is a Notation app and it is superb at that but it's not possible to get a broadcast ready mix inside Sibelius. Its included library is decent but nowhere near the quality of dedicated libraries. Sonar's notation is really a toy and the worst in the industry. If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools. With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 01:09:20
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☄ Helpfulby Mitch_I 2013/11/08 09:47:33
vintagevibe
Sibelius great for printed scores etc.. but if you want to COMPOSE in notation Cubase is pretty incredible. It does several things better than Sibelius and some things Sibelius doesn't do at all. Although it is primarily a DAW and not as good as Sibelius its notation was specifically designed to get professional results and does a great job for quite a few tasks. Sibelius is a Notation app and it is superb at that but it's not possible to get a broadcast ready mix inside Sibelius. Its included library is decent but nowhere near the quality of dedicated libraries. Sonar's notation is really a toy and the worst in the industry. If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools. With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.
Vintage Vibe wants to start a duel here, just like last time, but I have a better idea. Don't listen to him and don't listen to me. Get Cubase if you want, get Sonar, get both, get neither, do whatever makes you happy. Decide for yourself and know that any DAW can be used to good purpose. I'm not sure why a person who uses Cubase finds the time and need to come to a Sonar forum and bash the staff view. Sonar's notation handles asymmetrical meters, alternating meters, changing meters, triplets, sextuplets, quintuplets and other asymmetrical groupings. If a musician is having trouble creating complex rhythms, effective syncopation and intricate counterpoint in the Sonar staff view that says less about the staff view and more about a lack of know-how and technique. Also, consider this: Much of the detail in producing an electronic orchestration takes place in the event list, not only on the staff. The velocities, controllers, envelopes, note lengths, location relative to the beat, volume, timbre--all of these parameters must be considered when sculpting phrases.. If Sonar's staff view is a "toy", as Vintage Vibe asserts, below is a link to what this so-called "toy" is capable of, listen to part 4: www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm I'll be at the NAMM show in January presenting the workshop I created entitled "Beyond the MIDI Mockup", sponsored by Cakewalk, NAMM and the MIDI Manufacturer's Association. For those musicians who want to learn more about how to use a sequencer to produce music that has expression, nuance, gesture and subtlety, this workshop will focus on these very topics. Hope to see you there! Here are the details: http://www.midi.org/aboutus/news/2014HOT.php Jerry
post edited by jsg - 2013/11/08 14:29:02
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 14:31:59
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☄ Helpfulby pbognar 2013/11/08 23:47:25
pbognar
jsg
I can play them in, or I can pop the notes onto the staff. Either way, they won't look right, but they will SOUND right.
Yeah, here's a tip: Let's say you begin a phrase with the 3rd note of a 16th note triplet. With a timebase of 480, each sixteenth triplet gets 40 ticks, and the 3rd note of that triplet (let's say its on measure 22 beat 3) would be placed on the staff at 22 3 80. If my memory serves me correctly I think I even did some embedded triplets within triplets a few times, again, its just simple math to figure out what tick the note goes on. Of course this is easier and more likely to help if I could demonstrate rather than explain ;>)
If you want to use tied and/or dotted triplets, no problem. Just figure out where they go relative to the timebase and the number of ticks of the note, and you'll know where they go. If you have your note resolution on its highest value (which I never change), the tied and/or dotted triplet will look a little weird, but plays back exactly as it should. Believe me it works, listen to any of my orchestral works and you'll see Sonar's staff view gets the job done.
Let's say you want to enter a group of septuplets. Again, with a timebase of 480, each septuplet gets 68.57 ticks. Of course you have to round off to 69 ticks, but again, this is totally doable in Sonar.
I have never once, in all my years of using Sonar used the PRV.
The long-standing wrong displays of tied/dotted triplets is really no more than a minor nuisance, having no effect on the capacity to enter rhythms on off-beats, weak beats, groups of 7, 11, or whatever.
Hope this helps!
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
Your tips got me to sit down and try some things with the SV. I rediscovered the <shift><right/left arrow> key combinations to step through the timeline by the currently selected note duration (this means I don't need to memorize tick values). This made it easy to position myself to the 2nd 16th triplet of the 2nd beat - pretty cool. What would be even nicer is if the quarter note bar ruler guide above the staff would display gradiations which match the duration you have currently selected, instead of just the quarter note lines. It would be even nicer if there was a giant aim assist cross which graphically showed you where you were on the time line when moving the mouse with the pencil tool for inserting notes - but it's pretty nice that as you move the mouse left and right, the bar / beat / tick are constantly updated.
I have to agree that given all the other cool functions Sonar has, I could get used to the limitations of the SV, because unlike you, I am not classically trained, but I prefer notation for entering some things, and fixing existing things in the SV.
I will probably never enter septuplets, however how are you able to set a non-duration so that you can position yourself at something like 22 3 69?
Pete
It's done manually. You can click on any note's properties and move it to whatever part of the beat (tick) you want. The same can be done with a group of notes using Process-Find/Change or Slide. JG www.jerrygerber.com
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 16:33:33
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vintagevibe
If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools. With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.
This is totally incorrect information. The "highest quality sound" has nothing at all to do with MIDI or your DAW, it has to do with the quality of your sample libraries and your synthesizers. It has to do with your technique as a composer and orchestrator, the quality of your monitors, actually many things, but your DAW and MIDI are not in the equation, unless your DAW has MIDI glitches and doesn't playback without error. JG www.jerrygerber.com
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Grem
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 17:14:01
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Yeah Jerry, vintage lost me with that statement.
Grem
Michael Music PC i7 2600K; 64gb Ram; 3 256gb SSD, System, Samples, Audio; 1TB & 2TB Project Storage; 2TB system BkUp; RME FireFace 400; Win 10 Pro 64; CWbBL 64, Home PCAMD FX 6300; 8gb Ram; 256 SSD sys; 2TB audio/samples; Realtek WASAPI; Win 10 Home 64; CWbBL 64 Surface Pro 3Win 10 i7 8gb RAM; CWbBL 64
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vintagevibe
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 18:38:35
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jsg
vintagevibe
If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools. With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.
This is totally incorrect information. The "highest quality sound" has nothing at all to do with MIDI or your DAW, it has to do with the quality of your sample libraries and your synthesizers. It has to do with your technique as a composer and orchestrator, the quality of your monitors, actually many things, but your DAW and MIDI are not in the equation, unless your DAW has MIDI glitches and doesn't playback without error.
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
You fail to understand my point. Let me rephrase for you. It is not possible to do a professional mix in Sibelius.
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 19:10:39
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vintagevibe
jsg
vintagevibe
If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools. With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.
This is totally incorrect information. The "highest quality sound" has nothing at all to do with MIDI or your DAW, it has to do with the quality of your sample libraries and your synthesizers. It has to do with your technique as a composer and orchestrator, the quality of your monitors, actually many things, but your DAW and MIDI are not in the equation, unless your DAW has MIDI glitches and doesn't playback without error.
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
You fail to understand my point. Let me rephrase for you. It is not possible to do a professional mix in Sibelius.
But you weren't even talking about Sibelius! You referred to "Cubase, Protools or DP8". Looks like you're trying to cover your tracks. Saying that I "fail to understand" is a way to avoid admitting error. JG www.jerrygerber.com
post edited by jsg - 2013/11/08 20:36:51
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vintagevibe
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 20:32:11
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So you think it is possible to do a professional mix in Sibelius?
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 20:35:43
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vintagevibe
So you think it is possible to do a professional mix in Sibelius?
I've never done it, I see no reason to mix in Sibelius, I don't know anyone who does. Sibelius is designed to create scores, not recordings.
post edited by jsg - 2013/11/08 21:41:26
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vintagevibe
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 20:58:13
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jsg
vintagevibe
So you think it is possible to do a professional mix in Sibelius?
No, it is not possible.
Good then you agree with my point. Now maybe you can dispense with the personal attacks.
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Grem
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 22:44:05
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Grem
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pbognar
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/08 23:43:22
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jsg
pbognar jsgI can play them in, or I can pop the notes onto the staff. Either way, they won't look right, but they will SOUND right. Yeah, here's a tip: Let's say you begin a phrase with the 3rd note of a 16th note triplet. With a timebase of 480, each sixteenth triplet gets 40 ticks, and the 3rd note of that triplet (let's say its on measure 22 beat 3) would be placed on the staff at 22 3 80. If my memory serves me correctly I think I even did some embedded triplets within triplets a few times, again, its just simple math to figure out what tick the note goes on. Of course this is easier and more likely to help if I could demonstrate rather than explain ;>) If you want to use tied and/or dotted triplets, no problem. Just figure out where they go relative to the timebase and the number of ticks of the note, and you'll know where they go. If you have your note resolution on its highest value (which I never change), the tied and/or dotted triplet will look a little weird, but plays back exactly as it should. Believe me it works, listen to any of my orchestral works and you'll see Sonar's staff view gets the job done. Let's say you want to enter a group of septuplets. Again, with a timebase of 480, each septuplet gets 68.57 ticks. Of course you have to round off to 69 ticks, but again, this is totally doable in Sonar. I have never once, in all my years of using Sonar used the PRV. The long-standing wrong displays of tied/dotted triplets is really no more than a minor nuisance, having no effect on the capacity to enter rhythms on off-beats, weak beats, groups of 7, 11, or whatever. Hope this helps!Jerrywww.jerrygerber.comwww.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
Your tips got me to sit down and try some things with the SV. I rediscovered the <shift><right/left arrow> key combinations to step through the timeline by the currently selected note duration (this means I don't need to memorize tick values). This made it easy to position myself to the 2nd 16th triplet of the 2nd beat - pretty cool. What would be even nicer is if the quarter note bar ruler guide above the staff would display gradiations which match the duration you have currently selected, instead of just the quarter note lines. It would be even nicer if there was a giant aim assist cross which graphically showed you where you were on the time line when moving the mouse with the pencil tool for inserting notes - but it's pretty nice that as you move the mouse left and right, the bar / beat / tick are constantly updated. I have to agree that given all the other cool functions Sonar has, I could get used to the limitations of the SV, because unlike you, I am not classically trained, but I prefer notation for entering some things, and fixing existing things in the SV. I will probably never enter septuplets, however how are you able to set a non-duration so that you can position yourself at something like 22 3 69? Pete
It's done manually. You can click on any note's properties and move it to whatever part of the beat (tick) you want. The same can be done with a group of notes using Process-Find/Change or Slide. JGwww.jerrygerber.com
Ahh, thanks for clarifying.
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vintagevibe
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/09 00:30:42
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To the OP: I've blocked jsg so now we can have an adult conversation.
I've used Sonar for many years and while it's a great program it is the weakest among it's competition with regards to notation. Although I still use Sonar for some tasks when I do anything that needs notation I'm far happier and way more productive in Cubase. DP8 and Protools might be fine for notation as well but if you spend most of your time in notation Sonar is not the best tool IMO. They have told me there will be no major notation upgrades. Sonar does some things better than Cubase but the Cubase notation is another world compared to Sonar. Scoring is well implemented and quite easy to use once you learn it. I do teaching, composing and backing tracks for my live show. When I compose I use notation quite a bit and I can compose and orchestrate and with EWQL libraries and get the exact mix I want and a score that looks correct without going out to Sibelius. I hear a broadcast ready mix during the composing process. For me that is the absolute best way to work. I've tried going back and forth between Sonar and Sibelius vie Re-Wire and MXML but that is a time consumming, cumbersome and inspiration killing process. I still use Sibelius for teaching but IMO if notation is important to you there are far better tools than Sonar. I might even upgrade to X3 since I still use it for live performance tasks but I am blown away by experience of having great notation tools INSIDE a DAW. Just my opinion YMMV yada, yada, yada...
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Keni
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/09 01:16:04
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jsg
vintagevibe
Sibelius great for printed scores etc.. but if you want to COMPOSE in notation Cubase is pretty incredible. It does several things better than Sibelius and some things Sibelius doesn't do at all. Although it is primarily a DAW and not as good as Sibelius its notation was specifically designed to get professional results and does a great job for quite a few tasks. Sibelius is a Notation app and it is superb at that but it's not possible to get a broadcast ready mix inside Sibelius. Its included library is decent but nowhere near the quality of dedicated libraries. Sonar's notation is really a toy and the worst in the industry. If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools. With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.
Vintage Vibe wants to start a duel here, just like last time, but I have a better idea. Don't listen to him and don't listen to me. Get Cubase if you want, get Sonar, get both, get neither, do whatever makes you happy. Decide for yourself and know that any DAW can be used to good purpose. I'm not sure why a person who uses Cubase finds the time and need to come to a Sonar forum and bash the staff view.
Sonar's notation handles asymmetrical meters, alternating meters, changing meters, triplets, sextuplets, quintuplets and other asymmetrical groupings. If a musician is having trouble creating complex rhythms, effective syncopation and intricate counterpoint in the Sonar staff view that says less about the staff view and more about a lack of know-how and technique. Also, consider this: Much of the detail in producing an electronic orchestration takes place in the event list, not only on the staff. The velocities, controllers, envelopes, note lengths, location relative to the beat, volume, timbre--all of these parameters must be considered when sculpting phrases..
If Sonar's staff view is a "toy", as Vintage Vibe asserts, below is a link to what this so-called "toy" is capable of, listen to part 4:
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
I'll be at the NAMM show in January presenting the workshop I created entitled "Beyond the MIDI Mockup", sponsored by Cakewalk, NAMM and the MIDI Manufacturer's Association. For those musicians who want to learn more about how to use a sequencer to produce music that has expression, nuance, gesture and subtlety, this workshop will focus on these very topics. Hope to see you there! Here are the details:
http://www.midi.org/aboutus/news/2014HOT.php
Jerry
Hi Jerry... I just looked/listened to some of your music on the page above (symphony8)... Very nicely done. It's very cool to hear someone using Sonar for Orchestral music as the majority of Sonar Users are not Orchestral composers/arrangers (no slight on anyone, just some raw numbers)... Tho I did not try to examine the Staff Notation carefully, it sure looks "clean"... I don't often use the SV myself, but I have had need on occasion... and it's nice to know that it's there if/when needed. I can't imagine players having trouble reading it due to Sonar's SV limitations... ;-) Thanks for sharing the music as well as the info... Keni
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/09 01:18:57
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Of course Vintage Vibe (Dean Wolinsky) blocks me. He doesn't like it I call him on his nonsensical statements and his unwillingness/incapacity to admit when he is wrong. He says I "attack him". Does anybody of sound body and mind who has read these posts believe I've in any way attacked him? I've contradicted him because if he gives false information someone's got to call him on it or he'll keep misinforming others. How helpful is he when all he contributes are his negative opinions about the staff view is when people are trying to use it and understand how to use it better?
Other than the inability to display tied/dotted triplets and 64th notes properly (no relevance to accurate playback) the staff view is a robust and effective tool for composing music. My music is proof of that. Once you learn all the small details about the staff view, you'll find it's more than adequate to compose in.
And, compared to Cubase, you don't need to use a dongle, you get a better event list, better windows management, better patch management and better name management of controllers.
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/09 01:23:10
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Keni
jsg
vintagevibe
Sibelius great for printed scores etc.. but if you want to COMPOSE in notation Cubase is pretty incredible. It does several things better than Sibelius and some things Sibelius doesn't do at all. Although it is primarily a DAW and not as good as Sibelius its notation was specifically designed to get professional results and does a great job for quite a few tasks. Sibelius is a Notation app and it is superb at that but it's not possible to get a broadcast ready mix inside Sibelius. Its included library is decent but nowhere near the quality of dedicated libraries. Sonar's notation is really a toy and the worst in the industry. If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools. With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.
Vintage Vibe wants to start a duel here, just like last time, but I have a better idea. Don't listen to him and don't listen to me. Get Cubase if you want, get Sonar, get both, get neither, do whatever makes you happy. Decide for yourself and know that any DAW can be used to good purpose. I'm not sure why a person who uses Cubase finds the time and need to come to a Sonar forum and bash the staff view.
Sonar's notation handles asymmetrical meters, alternating meters, changing meters, triplets, sextuplets, quintuplets and other asymmetrical groupings. If a musician is having trouble creating complex rhythms, effective syncopation and intricate counterpoint in the Sonar staff view that says less about the staff view and more about a lack of know-how and technique. Also, consider this: Much of the detail in producing an electronic orchestration takes place in the event list, not only on the staff. The velocities, controllers, envelopes, note lengths, location relative to the beat, volume, timbre--all of these parameters must be considered when sculpting phrases..
If Sonar's staff view is a "toy", as Vintage Vibe asserts, below is a link to what this so-called "toy" is capable of, listen to part 4:
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
I'll be at the NAMM show in January presenting the workshop I created entitled "Beyond the MIDI Mockup", sponsored by Cakewalk, NAMM and the MIDI Manufacturer's Association. For those musicians who want to learn more about how to use a sequencer to produce music that has expression, nuance, gesture and subtlety, this workshop will focus on these very topics. Hope to see you there! Here are the details:
http://www.midi.org/aboutus/news/2014HOT.php
Jerry
Hi Jerry...
I just looked/listened to some of your music on the page above (symphony8)... Very nicely done. It's very cool to hear someone using Sonar for Orchestral music as the majority of Sonar Users are not Orchestral composers/arrangers (no slight on anyone, just some raw numbers)...
Tho I did not try to examine the Staff Notation carefully, it sure looks "clean"...
I don't often use the SV myself, but I have had need on occasion... and it's nice to know that it's there if/when needed. I can't imagine players having trouble reading it due to Sonar's SV limitations... ;-)
Thanks for sharing the music as well as the info...
Keni
Keni, The notation you were looking at was done in Sibelius, not in Sonar...
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/09 15:39:06
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12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9. Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?
I forgot to mention that one of the great features about the Sonar staff view (actually its about Sonar's window management in general) is that you can lock windows and have multiple windows open. So I can have a window with 8 wind instruments (8 staves), another with 11 brass instruments, and another with strings, all at the same time, each window locked. This blows away anything Cubase or DP can offer. The advantages are really important: you don't have to continually be picking and choosing which staves you want displayed, you've got them all in multiple windows. This feature began with X1, but has been refined and improved through X3. It's a big time saver. I have a student who uses DP and it really is time-consuming to have to constantly be having to pick instruments to display in the staff view. JG www.jerrygerber.com
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DaddyV
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/09 19:26:55
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Incredible work jsg!!!!!! That sounded like a real orchestra to me, just amazing. I don't read music or listen to classical but I CAN appreciate good music. Well done!
Win 10 Pro AMDfx-8120 Dual Quad-core 3.10 Ghz AMD Radion HD 7670 16 GB ram 64 bit SONAR Platinum X-3e Producer X-2 X-1e Qudcapture-Roland Waves Gold Amplitude 3 M-Audio Keystation Strats Les Pauls & a Rik 4001 Line 6 Variax "can't you boys play any nice songs?"
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pbognar
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/09 22:35:50
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vintagevibe
To the OP: I've blocked jsg so now we can have an adult conversation.
I've used Sonar for many years and while it's a great program it is the weakest among it's competition with regards to notation. Although I still use Sonar for some tasks when I do anything that needs notation I'm far happier and way more productive in Cubase. DP8 and Protools might be fine for notation as well but if you spend most of your time in notation Sonar is not the best tool IMO. They have told me there will be no major notation upgrades. Sonar does some things better than Cubase but the Cubase notation is another world compared to Sonar. Scoring is well implemented and quite easy to use once you learn it. I do teaching, composing and backing tracks for my live show. When I compose I use notation quite a bit and I can compose and orchestrate and with EWQL libraries and get the exact mix I want and a score that looks correct without going out to Sibelius. I hear a broadcast ready mix during the composing process. For me that is the absolute best way to work. I've tried going back and forth between Sonar and Sibelius vie Re-Wire and MXML but that is a time consumming, cumbersome and inspiration killing process. I still use Sibelius for teaching but IMO if notation is important to you there are far better tools than Sonar. I might even upgrade to X3 since I still use it for live performance tasks but I am blown away by experience of having great notation tools INSIDE a DAW. Just my opinion YMMV yada, yada, yada...
Someone at Cakealk actually told you there would be no major notation upgrades in Sonar? Is this in the context of X3, or ever?
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pbognar
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/09 22:40:25
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jsg
12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9. Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?
I forgot to mention that one of the great features about the Sonar staff view (actually its about Sonar's window management in general) is that you can lock windows and have multiple windows open. So I can have a window with 8 wind instruments (8 staves), another with 11 brass instruments, and another with strings, all at the same time, each window locked. This blows away anything Cubase or DP can offer. The advantages are really important: you don't have to continually be picking and choosing which staves you want displayed, you've got them all in multiple windows. This feature began with X1, but has been refined and improved through X3. It's a big time saver. I have a student who uses DP and it really is time-consuming to have to constantly be having to pick instruments to display in the staff view.
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
I'm not trying to be provocative, but have you had any experience with the notation / MIDI in Logic? In general, how does it stack up to Sonar, Cubase, and DP? Would you be able to accomplish what you can in Sonar with Logic?
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jsg
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/09 23:32:05
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pbognar
jsg
12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9. Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?
I forgot to mention that one of the great features about the Sonar staff view (actually its about Sonar's window management in general) is that you can lock windows and have multiple windows open. So I can have a window with 8 wind instruments (8 staves), another with 11 brass instruments, and another with strings, all at the same time, each window locked. This blows away anything Cubase or DP can offer. The advantages are really important: you don't have to continually be picking and choosing which staves you want displayed, you've got them all in multiple windows. This feature began with X1, but has been refined and improved through X3. It's a big time saver. I have a student who uses DP and it really is time-consuming to have to constantly be having to pick instruments to display in the staff view.
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
I'm not trying to be provocative, but have you had any experience with the notation / MIDI in Logic? In general, how does it stack up to Sonar, Cubase, and DP? Would you be able to accomplish what you can in Sonar with Logic?
I have no idea, I've never used Logic. My studio is PC based, not MAC. From everything I've read, all DAW notation programs leave someone or another unhappy. My experience with Cubase, DP and Sonar is that there is not that much difference between them, other than Cubase has a lot more notation symbols, obviously unnecessary if you use the staff view as I do as an midi input and editing tool, my scores are done in Sibelius.
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vintagevibe
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/12 14:37:57
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pbognar
vintagevibe
To the OP: I've blocked jsg so now we can have an adult conversation.
I've used Sonar for many years and while it's a great program it is the weakest among it's competition with regards to notation. Although I still use Sonar for some tasks when I do anything that needs notation I'm far happier and way more productive in Cubase. DP8 and Protools might be fine for notation as well but if you spend most of your time in notation Sonar is not the best tool IMO. They have told me there will be no major notation upgrades. Sonar does some things better than Cubase but the Cubase notation is another world compared to Sonar. Scoring is well implemented and quite easy to use once you learn it. I do teaching, composing and backing tracks for my live show. When I compose I use notation quite a bit and I can compose and orchestrate and with EWQL libraries and get the exact mix I want and a score that looks correct without going out to Sibelius. I hear a broadcast ready mix during the composing process. For me that is the absolute best way to work. I've tried going back and forth between Sonar and Sibelius vie Re-Wire and MXML but that is a time consumming, cumbersome and inspiration killing process. I still use Sibelius for teaching but IMO if notation is important to you there are far better tools than Sonar. I might even upgrade to X3 since I still use it for live performance tasks but I am blown away by experience of having great notation tools INSIDE a DAW. Just my opinion YMMV yada, yada, yada...
Someone at Cakealk actually told you there would be no major notation upgrades in Sonar? Is this in the context of X3, or ever?
The said there might me incremental updates but that is all. That was before Gibson so who knows?
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Elffin
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Re: Anything better in Staff-View and/or vocal tuning?
2013/11/12 16:05:52
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☄ Helpfulby Elffin 2013/11/12 16:11:19
Wonder if these other guys from Boston might want to collaborate with Cakewalk.... http://www.noteflight.com/login They already have an established education market and colloboration would benefit all. Cakwalk seem to be interested in getting things online (youtube/gobbler etc) Without misquoting anybody it has been suggested that the education market (where notation is prevalent) is saturated, but this in the cloud editing is extremley useful for education (html5) for kids, students and teachers. Some sort of collaboration where midi data could be shared directly could in fact provide a unique product in the market. It might be a daft idea idea..... but then somebody wanted to use a mouse and icons once........
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