Helpful ReplyHot!Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P

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Jim Roseberry
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/26 12:34:28 (permalink)
Updated my iPhone to iOS 11.03 last night.
Update finished... and I was asked to enter my iCloud password.
I entered the correct password... and was told to go to one of my other devices to "approve" my iPhone. ?!?!
Maybe I'm old, but that's a PITA. 
So I go get my iPad Pro, no... the approval code isn't on that one. 
I get my wife's iPad, no... the approval code isn't on that one either. 
I go to grab our third (oldest) iPad... and the battery is essentially dead.
Now, I'm getting annoyed.
I entered the correct iCloud password, let me use my **** phone.  
A microcosmic example of why I'm not an Apple fan

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#31
fireberd
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/26 12:46:00 (permalink)
I've updated my iPhone 6 Plus to the latest iOS version.  It didn't ask me about the "two step" identification.  I "think" the two step identification is optional.  I've had to do that for my Microsoft account at one time and also my Verizon account (but neither with the latest iOS update).
 
I don't have to worry about that on my old iPad as iOS9 is the last one that its compatible with (or that Apple will support on that model).

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#32
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/26 13:24:49 (permalink)
I don't use Microsoft Account for my PCs (prefer some autonomy from MS).
 
Yeah, the 32Bit iPads are going the way of dinosaurs.
My (oldest) iPad-2 is used live to trigger bits of audio.
Going to have to replace it in the near future...

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#33
Rain
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/28 07:02:40 (permalink)
I think the whole point is, whatever works for you. But a statement such as Apple (or Microsoft) is crap is bound to get some reaction, because the statement itself is crap and begs to be refuted.
 
Proof's in the pudding.
 
Whether you visit Abbey Road, Avatar or any other major studio, all you'll see is Apple. You would think that they would have ditched them by now if they were crap, especially since Pro Tools works great on PC.
 
Likewise, tons of people prove every day that a PC can work just as well.
 
The only difference is that you have a gazillion options, and some or even many of those options are fairly inadequate. When people say that PC's are as good or better, there's a few pages worth of fine prints attached to their statement. It's not just any Dell or HP off the shelf...
 
In fact, most PC's are implicitly excluded. They're usually talking about some very specific models or then hot rods of some kind. So either you can put that hot rod together yourself or you know someone who can do it for you.
 
With that in mind, there is no point in pretending that Apple is perfect. I for one am really NOT looking forward to my next Apple computer upgrade. And I'm enjoying working with PC's again.
 

Into the Crypt...

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#34
pwalpwal
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/28 10:42:49 (permalink)
fwiw, i own and use an ipad air, but i do think apple are too proprietary, with a forced upgrade cycle often requiring new hardware, and the os is too dumbed down for my liking, and they're too expensive

just a sec

#35
kennywtelejazz
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/28 11:34:19 (permalink)
pwalpwal
fwiw, i own and use an ipad air, but i do think apple are too proprietary, with a forced upgrade cycle often requiring new hardware, and the os is too dumbed down for my liking, and they're too expensive



Of course I feel what you are saying ...it's valid and the emotional feeling is certainly justified .
FWIW, what you have brought up  may be the crux of much of the Apple hate ....
 
On the other side of the coin both of my Mac's are no longer supported as far as being able to bump up my version of OSX goes .. I'm still able to run excellent pre thunderbolt audio interfaces ..
My OS does not allow me to run Logic X yet I have Logic 9 and many of the cross platform DAW's I have for Mac and PC .
All of them seem to run fantastic so far as long as I stay in my lane
 
Now it is very possible that I am the only person that feels this way
 
Both my Mac's may be stuck in a Time Machine type of setting as far as not being up gradable .The thing is the Mac hardware I'm running plus the software I'm running has played a part in being a creative element for many of the Hit and Grammy Award Winning Records from the Era of when my  Macs were new Of course there was much more skilled people doing those records using this Mac Era hardware , so in my book  that is still fact worth noting .
 
just  a thought , that is a bird already in the hand as opposed to a sweeter looking bird in the bush ...
 
all the best,
 
Kenny

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good ,  SONAR SPlat .
Gibson R 8 Les Paul VOS , American Bulldog
 
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#36
fireberd
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/28 13:25:57 (permalink)
A Rant.
With a MAC (or an iXXX) its basically a "closed" system and there are not the 10's of thousands of possible hardware configurations for a Windows PC.  Apple controls their hardware and software.  There are third party software apps but the machines and the OS are all Apple.  With a Windows PC, and until recently, Microsoft did not make the hardware and control it like Apple.  It made the Operating System and it had to run on the multitude of possible hardware configurations - some 100% compatible, some "mostly" compatible, some "marginally" compatible but it runs on most of these.  Thus stability of the Windows OS is dependent on the hardware compatibility.  Apple (mostly) does not have these issues and thus the "warm and fuzzy" stable systems to host DAW's or whatever. 

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#37
tlw
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/28 14:22:10 (permalink)
pwalpwal
fwiw, i own and use an ipad air, but i do think apple are too proprietary, with a forced upgrade cycle often requiring new hardware, and the os is too dumbed down for my liking, and they're too expensive


A full-blown Unix-based multi-user system is "too dumbed down"?

Really?

And the number of perfectly functional printers alone rendered useless when a Windows update requires a new driver the printer manufacturer decides not to write because they'd rather sell you a new printer could probably fill the Grand Canyon.

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#38
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/28 15:12:29 (permalink)
tlw
pwalpwal
fwiw, i own and use an ipad air, but i do think apple are too proprietary, with a forced upgrade cycle often requiring new hardware, and the os is too dumbed down for my liking, and they're too expensive


A full-blown Unix-based multi-user system is "too dumbed down"?



 
I believe he's talking about iOS (not OSX).  
In trying to make certain things "simple"... (IMO) Apple has over-complicated and made the situation tedious.
ie: Access to files should be direct... not convoluted and not requiring iTunes.  Connect, drag, drop...
 
Speaking of which, Apple is frequently updating iOS (which isn't long-term a bad thing), but it often takes time for App developers to catch up.  As with your Windows printer example, this often leaves App features broken (or at risk of failing).  I use OnSong live... and have to be careful not to install iOS updates before a gig.

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#39
abacab
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/28 17:37:48 (permalink)
A computer story about PC, Mac, and ChromeOS, with a happy ending.
 
I set my Dad up with a first PC back around year 2000 so he could use the web, and email with friends on AOL (dial-up).
 
I refurbed a used Win 95 box for this task.  Set it up for him, showed him how to perform basic tasks.  He took to it like a pro!  But then I got support phone calls nearly every week.  It finally died, and I ordered him a new Dell.  He installed that himself.  But I still got support calls.  He had loaded all kinds of security software on it and was getting conflicts and weird pop-up warnings, and was afraid to sign on to his bank account anymore.
 
So I ordered him a Mac mini.  That was a success!  I got calls maybe twice a year to help with downloading the latest Mac security update.  He was still on dial-up, so I would download the updates over broadband, and burn them to CDROM for him.  Otherwise he rarely called with issues.
 
Well about 2 years ago the Mac finally hit end of life, and could no longer run the latest browser versions that banks required for online access.  So they disabled online access to his accounts.  The OS could no longer be updated on that hardware either.  And I had gotten him on broadband internet by now.
 
So I ordered him a new ChromeBox (same ChromeOS as a ChromeBook, but like a NUC form factor), as a drop in replacement for the Mac Mini.  After setup, it was working like a champ!  He just uses a web browser, so his simple needs are fully met.
 
No support calls in almost two years.
 
Bottom line is that the user experience is widely varied, depending on the user's adaptability regarding learning curve, troubleshooting, customization, fiddling, tweaking, etc.
 
I admit that I'm a tech-head, and a dumbed down OS and hardware I cannot upgrade would drive me up the wall!  But there is a place in this world for each type of tech, as a type of tech for each type of user.  I celebrate the diversity!
 
So I do see the good points made about switching on a Mac DAW (like an appliance) and just making music!  There are days that I would really like to toss my Windows literally out the window, LOL!  But I always get through it somehow... 

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#40
Sir Les
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/29 18:44:24 (permalink)
2012 mac pro, is not a 2013 mac pro.
and if so a mac pro is a mac pro of 2013...he got support, and warranty for it if bought from a registered store, no doubt?
 
And what caused the burning of it?...has not been entered to the causing...perhaps no APC, or surge surpresion used on electrical?...if having so much issues with devices?
 
MS OS win10..and the third party people, sure making troublesome code to undo user settings, ram games down the pipi pipe, and bing still doing what it does do, if not hiden more so deeper into...to get the id, data, and surfing info, spending habits, and turn the OS into a store front...if not also slanting markets with such intel...may be insider trading methods also to consider being tied to....develop for the troubles ahead to sell a cure, with paid tech support of course...tied to third world penny paid people, and penny pinchers, and all the scamming also, to get the phone calls for, that intel sold to fourth party people..???
 
 
....Well here where I am, they have abolished the penny, so some might not get paid at all?..or is it supposed to be rounded up to 5 cents raise?
 
 
Just hope this one post, is not removed by those who do that sort of thing, just witnessing again today....for liking my Mac Pro 2013 and El Capitan os and daws that do not drop the audio at all...nice clean multi
tracking...and rendering...once tweaked....is a refreshing move away from the hair pulling crackles and pops...witnessing now to say.
 
What ever solution works for the user...use it.
 
 
And stop removing posts please...it shows a underhanded silencing of the truth be told by both if not all sides of any witnessing done to solve for!
 
Cheers.

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#41
bitflipper
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/29 19:56:27 (permalink)
My late wife was, inexplicably, an iPhone fan. Her phone had an issue, which turned out to be a software problem (at least, in the diagnosis by the certified "genius" at the Apple store that we had to make an appointment to see).
 
The problem manifested itself in the "S" key randomly mis-registering when pressed. Unfortunately, she had an "s" in her password, so it was inevitable that she'd eventually enter an incorrect password three times in a row. Her phone was then automatically locked. I had to call someone in India and literally beg them to allow the phone to be used again.
 
I don't want any vendor to have that kind of power over me. Microsoft is bad enough with their mandatory updates, but I have never been denied the use of a device because of it.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#42
townstra
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/30 00:02:14 (permalink)
Since I don't mind working on a PC to upgrade it if needed the main reason I stick with the Windows 10 PCs is they are really cost effective.  I have less than $1000 in an i7 desktop PC in my studio, and it has been extremely reliable and runs Splat and Vegas Pro without breaking a sweat.  Loading the drivers to get it up and running for everything was really no big deal since I had to install software anyway.  Nothing against the Macs, but just not worth the money for me.

Regards,
Tracy
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#43
gswitz
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/30 02:37:08 (permalink)
Jim Roseberry
Some folks love Gibson guitars... others would rather play PRS... and yet others prefer Fender.



So far, I have a Fender Strat. Someday... someday...

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#44
dubdisciple
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/30 05:22:05 (permalink)
I'm used yo working with windows, linux and mac. I'm mostly neutral, but do find the closed world of mac limiting at times, yet appreciate that same closed system does allow for a more stable environment. It just has never justified the price vs performance factor for me. I will always get damn near twice the processing power going pc vs mac. Stability has never been my issue since i do most of my personal computing on linux
#45
kennywtelejazz
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/30 10:59:54 (permalink)
gswitz
Jim Roseberry
Some folks love Gibson guitars... others would rather play PRS... and yet others prefer Fender.



So far, I have a Fender Strat. Someday... someday...



 
It never ends ...It Never Ends... 
Just wait until you have 3 of this and 4 or that. Then you will know what I'm talking about 
It just cost my 87 bucks to buy strings and that was only for 10 of my guitars ...The other 20 plus are just gonna have to wait 
 
Kenny
 
PS , abacab the chrome book thing I went with about a year ago ....for all the general internet stuff ...I love it .

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good ,  SONAR SPlat .
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#46
Starise
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/30 13:43:37 (permalink)
Like several here, I used a Mac a long time ago. That computer was a gift, I should say it was a new, out of the box gift. It never had any real issues. It was great for basic getting around the web and if it had been a better model it probably would have made a great music computer too. I'm not really qualified to give a detailed comparison on the new Macs. It wasn't the computer itself that made me start using a PC. It was mainly the price and the fact that most everything about it was done "in house". About the same time I got a really good deal on a PC kit at Tigerdirect, so when it was time to change, I bought the kit and built one myself. This was back in the late 90's.
 
That put me on the trajectory  I've been on ever since. When a PC gets long in the tooth, I simply upgrade it.
 
What has changed since then is computers are way more powerful than they once were, making many off the shelf computers more than capable to run Sonar for a home recordist. There are people using i3 chips in laptops for simple projects. i5 chips for some of the heavier jobs and we regularly see i7's  in use running large studio projects. You can get an i7 with 16gb of ram and a decent hard drive in a store bought PC. Many PC companies will let you pre configure and order it online. A laptop with an i5 is capable to do many home studio chores with ease.
 
I seem to be the type of person that can zero in on a problem and solve it quickly and maybe this has helped me more than I know with PC's. I naturally get technology. Case in point- Recently I was sent on a job at my work with three techs standing there scratching their heads over a problem. I had the issue fixed within 10 minutes.They had been there for an hour. This seems to happen with some regularity. I've been told I had the "magic touch". More likely, I just found the likely problems and zeroed in on it quickly for a fix. 
 
I heard an interesting concept recently concerning mind over matter. Apparently, there are some people who could break anything no matter how well it worked before they showed up. Others seem to have "the touch" to make things work. This has been proven in studies believe it or not. Apparently we can somehow shape our surroundings to some extent. This gets into quantum physics and I can't tell you how or why it works, but it seems to work to an extent and affect our surroundings. I heard about it through this author on a podcast. Mind Over Matter
I probably disagree with a lot of what he says, but I do think there is something to it.
 
Maybe you know someone that can just show up and things stop working  Those people could break a Mac or a PC. 
 
 

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#47
pwalpwal
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/30 13:48:08 (permalink)
for me the first red flag was when they released the bathroom-accessory-looking imac back in the mid-90s - no external scsi port (for all the external drives we'd invested in) only usb, but not a single usb device available on the (uk) market, nevermind scsi/usb adapters... apple can go whistle as far as i'm concerned

just a sec

#48
AT
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/30 14:05:57 (permalink)
My PC has never taken hundreds of my old songs from vinyl I've recorded to WAVs and changed them to a proprietary format that can't be unlocked and changed back to anything I can play on anything other than an old Ipod.  That is a couple of weeks of work just pissed away since I use my PC to listen to music, or my Windows phone in the car.
 
I'll probably buy a (nother) Ipad soon for music work (my wife has both of ours) but I'll keep my listening music off it.  Once bitten, as the saying goes.

https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
 
there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
#49
Starise
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/30 14:35:30 (permalink)
I was reluctant to switch from my Apple phone to an Android since I had a bunch of stuff I falsely assumed couldn't be moved across platforms. As it turns out all of my pictures and contacts were ported right over to the new phone with a simple app. Not to mention I bought my Android at Costco for a third of the price of a new Apple phone. Since using it now for a few months I like it better than iPhone. No cell phone company payment plan ever again. Those guys will shag you no matter what platform you choose. 
 
For me, iPads and iPhones were the last things Apple I owned. We have a few iPads. For sheet music work the iPad Pro is probably the best thing since you can buy a bluetooth pedal and turn the pages while playing. Still 1100.00 for something that substitutes a music notebook is a lot of money, at least for me. I can almost hire my own page turner for that. If they could bring that price down I might buy one. Better yet , find a decent android equivalent.
 
I've lived in the the Apple world and the Google app world. They both offer similar capability, but like anything else Android Google offers much more freedom.
 
Apple offers- Integrated Safari apps., iCloud storage, iTunes music (both a very close system) both a free version and a higher paid version. I pay .99 a month for 50gb to store my apps in iCloud. Much of that world is only Apple centric. 
 
Google offers- Google drive ( you can put anything on it you desire including wav files) both free and paid versions, Google docs eliminate the need for Microsoft word for many people. I use the calendar which syncs across all my computers and my phone. Alexa is daily getting more intelligent than Siri. I control my home automation with an echo dot and the larger echo. Google has voice control built into their browser now which I can use on my phone.
 
The new iPhone X has more recognition built into it than previous versions. That isn't enough to entice me to spend a grand on it when Android has similar. My 200.00 Moto G5+ has fingerprint recognition.I don't care if it can scan my face. The maps both have aren't deal breakers. I can simply use wayz and it tells me when there's an accident ahead.
 
I'm not saying Android/Google is perfect, but they have certainly managed to compete well with anything Apple comes out with. 

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 www.soundcloud.com/starise
 
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Twitter @Rodein
 
#50
tlw
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/30 22:15:02 (permalink)
Starise
Maybe you know someone that can just show up and things stop working  Those people could break a Mac or a PC.  


My wife works with one such. She goes through a couple of work-issued laptops a year on average. The suspected cause of her computer-killing ability was she never seems to grasp things like dropping a running laptop six inches onto a desk will do the spinning HDD in it no good at all. Early this year they switched to new laptops with SDDs. The computer destroyer has already killed one....

As for Macs vs PCs, both have their advantages and disadvantages. The system that I think would have been superior to both had it been continued with was the Commodore Amiga OS. Back in the early 90s an A1200 could run rings round IBM PC clones and Windows 3 and had a superb multi-tasking OS for the time.

Unfortunately Commodore ended up in the hands of someone who if awarded the advertising account for KFC would have filled billboards around the world with “please eat our greasy, warm lumps of dead birds”.

Such is life, nothing is perfect.

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#51
Starise
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/31 14:29:24 (permalink)
Ha, tlw. We have a few women on the forum here and I want to escape with my life so I'll keep my comments on that to a minimum. The ones we have here are VERY technically minded. I think most though would rather not bother with it and do whatever it is they like to do which usually isn't computer/software repair.
 
My wife loves to take pictures. For some odd reason she simply won't use an outboard HDD for her pics. She simply fills up laptop HDDS and buys a new laptop. I've even bought her a drive and preached using it to her. I ended up with it. She is on her third lappy in as many years and working on a forth. I have one of them in my studio that she forgot about. I might use it for portable work . Did you ever see a laptop with a 1TB hdd try to boot on less than 100mb?. You get, "hard drive is full" Boink boink boink ....I gave up on it.
 
The Google world is better than the Safari world. Transfer any file you want, eat twinkies in bed, whatever. It's all ok  in the Google world. Apps for everything.
 
Apple safari- Not so much. It goes like this: You wanna do that? Buy this.$$$$$$$$$$$$.
 
I was looking at iPad pro as sheet music storage. 1100 though. Ouch.
 
 

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#52
Fleer
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/10/31 23:39:13 (permalink)
Well, what's new. Apple has always had glued up computers. And glued up phones. And glued up paraphernalia. I don't mind. I love the way they don't separate software  from hardware, or make hardware separated from software. It's the only company I know that combines both in one (glued up) package. So i'll be going for that new glued up iMac Pro, sure as hell. 
Did I like Apple more when I started with them in the eighties and they were the little man? You bet. Do I think Apple was more creative and original back then? Yep. 
Do I believe Apple still leads for musical creation? Another yep.
It's  their idiosyncrasy that does it for me. Even now.
But I hate adapters and the loss of phone jacks.
Maybe that's idiosyncratic too.

"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
#53
Starise
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/11/01 14:52:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Fleer 2017/11/02 16:05:58
Yep, glued up with PC innards and weird connectors. More power to ya.

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#54
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/11/01 15:15:19 (permalink)
IMO, Apple should re-design the iMac so that the user can quickly/easily swap out the boot drive.
It's just poor engineering to have to peel off the entire glass screen to swap out the boot drive.
At the very least, provide a back-panel to access a M.2 slot.  
Purposely engineered to force users to the Apple Store.  
With a PC, a drive-swap is a 5-minute task.
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
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#55
abacab
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/11/01 15:19:02 (permalink)
Looks like Microsoft has taken a tip from Apple with their Surface...LOL!!!
 
iFixit Labels the Surface Laptop a ‘Glue-Filled Monstrosity’
https://www.extremetech.c...lue-filled-monstrosity
 

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#56
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/11/01 15:40:01 (permalink)
Regarding "Mac exclusively" in professional studios:
 
Mac computers are seriously lagging behind the curve of hardware development.
 
Composers who are pushing the limits of hardware (usually composing for TV/Film/Video Games) are literally forced to use custom PCs... because they can't get the hardware they need from Apple.
Was talking with Fred Coury about this during our last conversation.
Many of the top LA composers (Fred, Danny Lux, etc) get together once a month to discuss their craft/tools/etc.
Of this group, even the most die-hard Mac users are running custom PCs as VE-Pro "Slave" machines.
We're finishing up a VE Pro Slave (as we speak) for Trevor Howard. 
Trevor is a Mac guy... but needs more power/flexibility.
 
Mac machines are sleek/slick... but (ironically) not particularly well suited for the "power-user".
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
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#57
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/11/01 15:45:36 (permalink)
abacab
Looks like Microsoft has taken a tip from Apple with their Surface...LOL!!!
 
iFixit Labels the Surface Laptop a ‘Glue-Filled Monstrosity’
https://www.extremetech.c...lue-filled-monstrosity



Sleek/slick... slow and expensive
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#58
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/11/01 15:47:58 (permalink)
Oh... and disposable   
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#59
Starise
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Re: Apple: It's Good If You Like C**P 2017/11/01 17:25:41 (permalink)
Steve Jobs  vision was to make a portable device that could be the center of a users world. He wasn't going for the server market. I think the desktop was a secondary thought. He wanted people to have everything at their fingertips.
 
Everyone walking around in New York like lemmings looking at a screen was his idea lol. The only obstacle to that idea was some things require more screen space and a more in depth interface. He really had me believing that I could do almost everything I once did on a smaller device. I bought a bunch of apps for music. I guess I'm old school. Didn't work for me. I mean, yes you can do it. I can also make home made ice cream which I might do every 10 years. 
 
Steve Jobs is now dead. He isn't directing the company as a spirit. The new management is under no obligation to continue his vision. Apple is like a big bureaucratic dinosaur. They are good at one thing still. Making smart phones.Even that can be challenged by others. So what is their main schtick now? A name? A different OS? What is the final result? They never were king of the hill, just different. Not better, different. JMHO YMMV. My 0000000002 or less :)

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#60
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