AdamGrossmanLG
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Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
Hello All,
Just wondering if the clipping indicators are accurate in the Prochannel (the little yellow or red light above each module. I have a strings sound that is PEAKING at -8db yet its hot red into the first module (EQ)...
Thank You,
Alewgro
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John
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 00:49:22
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Yes they are. But think of those as more like overload indicators.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 00:50:27
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John
Yes they are. But think of those as more like overload indicators.
ok cool but how am i overloading at -7db strings?
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 00:57:31
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alewgro
John
Yes they are. But think of those as more like overload indicators.
ok cool but how am i overloading at -7db strings?
Say you boost a frequency a few dB see what could happen? Clipping is very difficult to do in Sonar with floating point math but an effect can be overloaded by its own gain structure internally. If things sound strange but it doesn't sound like its clipping this could be the reason. Back off a little. All in all I wouldn't worry about it unless it stays on and seems to get brighter. BTW if they are strings with contrabass there's a lot of low frequency energy there.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 00:59:02
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John
alewgro
John
Yes they are. But think of those as more like overload indicators.
ok cool but how am i overloading at -7db strings?
Say you boost a frequency a few dB see what could happen? Clipping is very difficult to do in Sonar with floating point math but an effect can be overloaded by its own gain structure internally. If things sound strange but it doesn't sound like its clipping this could be the reason. Back off a little. All in all I wouldn't worry about it unless it stays on and seems to get brighter.
BTW if they are strings with contrabass there's a lot of low frequency energy there.
Thanks John, but how can I back off, I'm peaking at -7db RMS around -15db for strings. Not sure I get it.. it sounds OK i think. Why would sonar think its overloaded?
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cparmerlee
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 01:14:03
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alewgro
Not sure I get it.
FWIW I have wondered the same thing. I have had times where the light flash, but I haven't been able to discern any distortion from clipping. Likewise, if I run material into Izotope RX4 (which has a cool function to repair clipping), I can see cases that sure look like they are clipped, but I can't hear any distortion. I have just attributed this to: 1) the software saving a little headroom before clipping actually occurs 2) light clipping being hard to hear. If you want to be really safe, put the Concrete Limiter on each track.
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sharke
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 01:41:24
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When you say you're peaking at -8dB isn't that the level of the signal AFTER the ProChannel? Presuming of course you don't have post-fader enabled. If so, then the signal going into the ProChannel might well be hot enough to clip it. What's happening after the EQ? It's quite possible that you are clipping going into the ProChannel but that some other module is attenuating the signal to the point where it's coming out of the ProChannel at -8dB.
What happens if you turn off the ProChannel and put the fader at unity gain? It it clipping the meters? If so, cool it down a few dB with the gain pot (or if it's a synth, turn the volume down on the synth itself).
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 17:38:07
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sharke
When you say you're peaking at -8dB isn't that the level of the signal AFTER the ProChannel? Presuming of course you don't have post-fader enabled. If so, then the signal going into the ProChannel might well be hot enough to clip it. What's happening after the EQ? It's quite possible that you are clipping going into the ProChannel but that some other module is attenuating the signal to the point where it's coming out of the ProChannel at -8dB.
What happens if you turn off the ProChannel and put the fader at unity gain? It it clipping the meters? If so, cool it down a few dB with the gain pot (or if it's a synth, turn the volume down on the synth itself).
Hi Sharke, Well in this isntance, it is the same as i have no FX in my prochannel. I simply just turned the EQ on (but it's flat). So whatever it is showing IS what is going into the Prochannel as well. Not sure what you mean putting the fader at unity gain. Thanks, Alewgro
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John
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:25:02
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Back off means lower the signal. Unity is where a fader is place and there is no boost or attenuation. Zero gain or reduction. Double clicking on a fader will put it at unity.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:27:11
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John
Back off means lower the signal. Unity is where a fader is place and there is no boost or attenuation. Zero gain or reduction. Double clicking on a fader will put it at unity.
Hi John, Well, not sure WHY it wants me to back off though. Forgive me, I am not a true audio expert yet. The input on this string section peaks no higher than -7db. I thought only if you are nearing the clipping point should this go red. Thank You, Alewgro
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John T
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:32:45
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ProChannel is upstream of the faders. So the clip lights indicate that the signal going IN to the PC module is too hot. If it's the first module in the chain, then only thin you can do is turn down the channel gain, as that's the only thing that comes before the PC, in a standard setup.
The other way this could occur would be if your PC was set to be post FX bin, and something in the effects bin was making the signal too hot at that point.
Your fader level and channel output meters have no bearing on this whatsoever. They're downstream of the problem.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:34:46
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John T
ProChannel is upstream of the faders. So the clip lights indicate that the signal going IN to the PC module is too hot. If it's the first module in the chain, then only thin you can do is turn down the channel gain, as that's the only thing that comes before the PC, in a standard setup.
The other way this could occur would be if your PC was set to be post FX bin, and something in the effects bin was making the signal too hot at that point.
Your fader level and channel output meters have no bearing on this whatsoever. They're downstream of the problem.
Understood. I just don't get WHY it goes red if this synth going in is at -7db peak. Why would -7db peak be too hot?
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John T
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:34:47
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Also note that the PC lights aren't clipping indicators. Green means "this module is performing as it should", yellow means "Uh, oh, getting a bit hot, sudden spikes might be a problem", red means "I am almost definitely now operating sub-optimally".
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John T
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:35:26
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alewgro
Understood. I just don't get WHY it goes red if this synth going in is at -7db peak. Why would -7db peak be too hot?
Could be. But first, how do you know it's peaking at -7db?
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:36:46
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John T
alewgro
Understood. I just don't get WHY it goes red if this synth going in is at -7db peak. Why would -7db peak be too hot?
Could be. But first, how do you know it's peaking at -7db?
I have ToneBoosters EBULoudness at the end of the Prochannel, but remember... nothing in the prochannel is effecting the sound. I just turned on the EQ but its flat.
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John
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:37:19
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alewgro
John
Back off means lower the signal. Unity is where a fader is place and there is no boost or attenuation. Zero gain or reduction. Double clicking on a fader will put it at unity.
Hi John,
Well, not sure WHY it wants me to back off though. Forgive me, I am not a true audio expert yet. The input on this string section peaks no higher than -7db. I thought only if you are nearing the clipping point should this go red.
Thank You,
Alewgro
I'm not sure either. I wouldn't worry about it though. Again if you don't here a problem then there is most likely no problem to hear. The color could be orange not red but red enough to look as if it was red.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:38:29
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John
alewgro
John
Back off means lower the signal. Unity is where a fader is place and there is no boost or attenuation. Zero gain or reduction. Double clicking on a fader will put it at unity.
Hi John,
Well, not sure WHY it wants me to back off though. Forgive me, I am not a true audio expert yet. The input on this string section peaks no higher than -7db. I thought only if you are nearing the clipping point should this go red.
Thank You,
Alewgro
I'm not sure either. I wouldn't worry about it though. Again if you don't here a problem then there is most likely no problem to hear.
I guess... i just get scared that something about my input signal is wrong and will lead to a bad mix. thx!
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John T
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:41:34
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Right, fair enough.
- 7db is pretty loud. I've just done a quick test with a snare drum sample, and set up exactly as you describe, with a -7db peak level going into a flat EQ on the hits, I get reds.
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John T
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 19:44:14
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In terms of "leading to a bad mix", that's a definite possibility. What other instruments are in this track? You're not going to have a lot of headroom at the master bus if you're starting out with signals that loud.
To give a for-instance, on a standard guitar band mix, I usually start with the kick and the snare somewhere around -15db each. This leaves me plenty headroom to play with as I add more tracks to the mix, and no plugins are harmed in the making of the record.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 20:14:33
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John T
In terms of "leading to a bad mix", that's a definite possibility. What other instruments are in this track? You're not going to have a lot of headroom at the master bus if you're starting out with signals that loud.
To give a for-instance, on a standard guitar band mix, I usually start with the kick and the snare somewhere around -15db each. This leaves me plenty headroom to play with as I add more tracks to the mix, and no plugins are harmed in the making of the record.
Ah ok, i was going to reduce the gains later on. These softsynths by default are SOOO loud, you know? I wonder why they do that. When you say you start the kick/snare around -15db each, is that peak or RMS? What do you do if you wanna bounce a mix for the car? It will be so low. Thanks, Alewgro
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John
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/06 21:24:33
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That is true some synths are too loud. I just lower their volume. Most have some sort of output volume control.
BTW welcome to the forum and I want to compliment you on asking good questions. Ones others may want to ask but are afraid to do so.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/07 10:05:00
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John
That is true some synths are too loud. I just lower their volume. Most have some sort of output volume control.
BTW welcome to the forum and I want to compliment you on asking good questions. Ones others may want to ask but are afraid to do so.
Thank you John. I have been using Cakewalk products on and off since 2005, but just now became the musician I want to be and now really want to learn the DAW as much as possible. I will try to answer threads to eventually, when I reach that level of expertise :) -Alewgro
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Anderton
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/07 11:34:31
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alewgro
John
That is true some synths are too loud. I just lower their volume. Most have some sort of output volume control.
BTW welcome to the forum and I want to compliment you on asking good questions. Ones others may want to ask but are afraid to do so.
Thank you John. I have been using Cakewalk products on and off since 2005, but just now became the musician I want to be and now really want to learn the DAW as much as possible.
I will try to answer threads to eventually, when I reach that level of expertise :)
-Alewgro
IMHO, no problem. You're asking useful questions in a courteous way, and following up on suggestions. This thread is inspiring me to put some sine waves into SONAR, adjust track gains, and see what happens...
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/07 16:06:07
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Thanks Anderton. Interesting thing is, I see it leaving my synth hot! This is a soft string type sound peaking around -9 db now and too hot leaving the synth? I dont get it. 
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John
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/07 17:11:42
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At the bottom at the finetuning it says Volume. Try that. BTW its a pad not strings. There is a difference.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/07 17:13:54
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Ha yes :) There IS a difference!
There was a bunch of low end coming that was making it hot, so whatever, I let it come in hot and I put a huge LPF on it sloping down from 600Hz. did the job. :)
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John
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/07 17:17:18
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If you read my first post here I mention about low frequencies.
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John T
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/07 19:14:19
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☄ Helpfulby alewgro 2014/12/07 19:26:10
alewgro
Ah ok, i was going to reduce the gains later on. These softsynths by default are SOOO loud, you know? I wonder why they do that.
Well, default settings and presets are generally designed to make you go "wow" during a quick demo. I find they're almost always too loud and have too many effects on them. alewgro
When you say you start the kick/snare around -15db each, is that peak or RMS?
RMS. I have the playback meters permanently set to RMS. alewgro
What do you do if you wanna bounce a mix for the car? It will be so low.
I have the concrete limiter last on the master bus in my general template. I use that to pull up the overall mix for work-in-progress exports. I then ditch that when I get to the real mastering step, but that's a whole other topic. If you don't have the concrete limiter, Boost11 will do. I don't have it doing constant limiting. Just so I can push the thing up loud enough for a quick export. I only have occasional limiting of 1-2db going on. That generally gets you loud enough for car / ipod exports.
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John T
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/07 19:17:35
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The -15db is just a starting point, not a rule. Generally, everything will creep up as I work through the mix.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Are The Clipping Indicators Accurate?
2014/12/07 19:36:24
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Great stuff here... thanks John(s)!
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