Helpful ReplyAre bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates?

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vorxio
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2017/01/27 11:44:58 (permalink)

Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates?

I'm one-step away from buying Sonar Platinum ... I read that I have one year of free rolling updates and after one year I can renew the rolling updates for another year; from the FAQ:
...
I’m addicted, how do I get more updates and support for SONAR?
Simply buy it again. An additional 12 months will be added to your account.
...
 
But what happens for the bug/fixes ?  Can I still receive the fixes ?
 
If I bought a software with a defect (that can be introduced in the last rolling update) I would like to have it fixed without "buying it again"
 
 
 
#1
scottfa
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/27 11:53:53 (permalink)
No, and if support is an important criteria i would  read these  forums carefully  before committing to Sonar.  

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#2
gustabo
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/27 12:00:44 (permalink)
Sonar X3 had 5 bug fix updates in a year and then a new product came out. Sonar Platinum is now a constantly evolving product with rolling updates. After a year, a product is usually replaced by a newer product. The year membership is not a subscription, it's pretty much the same model as before with X1, X2 and X3 but now the name doesn't change.


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#3
scook
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/27 12:08:05 (permalink)
vorxio
If I bought a software with a defect (that can be introduced in the last rolling update) I would like to have it fixed without "buying it again"

You are not "buying it a again." You would be purchasing continuing support and updates. The software is practically guaranteed to have defects at the end of your membership. Development is an ongoing process. Depending on the severity of the defect, it would be up to Cakewalk to decide if the defect was severe enough to provide the fix to past members. It is really no different than if you purchased any software today that does not offer free updates for life (which is the majority of software).
#4
slartabartfast
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/27 12:57:08 (permalink)
This is certainly not an issue unique to Cakewalk, but it is not a concern that should be dismissed out of hand.
 
The concept that "the software is practically guaranteed to have defects" is almost certainly an accurate observation, but it raises a major issue in commercial law. The OP is expressing, as an issue of fairness, ideas which can be expressed in law as warranty, and unconscionability or breach of a contract. The general assumption is that a product that is purchased or a service that is contracted, will perform as stated. While the contract can include disclaimers that seek to provide the supplier immunity for his failures, there are definitely limits to what they can actually shield. 
 
Failures to provide perfect software are almost universal, but it would be a mistake to assume that the industry as a whole is above the law in this area, and it would be as unfortunate if, by accepting defects universally, we were to essentially give up our right to hold them accountable. If the assumption becomes "software is never expected to work as advertised," then it is a small step to a finding that, no implied warranty exists, or no express warranty can be enforced since it flies in the face of accepted reality i. e. that the reasonable buyer should know as a matter of custom that it will be defective.
 
As a practical matter one would probably need to prove that defects vitiate the essence of the bargain, making the product unusable for its intended use in order to get satisfaction. The cost of any litigation would prevent any but the most litigious and well-healed consumer (or class?) from enforcing repair or replacement or refund for off the shelf software, but the OP's observation that he would be asked to "buy the software again," to get it repaired is not, in effect, incorrect, although clouded by a business model that does not offer repairs separate from new features.
 
 
#5
bapu
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/27 12:59:17 (permalink)
What you really want is the SONAR Platinum Lifetime Update version. However, I think it is no longer for sale. At least I can't find it anywhere.
 
If you purchase Platinum now I suspect (with absolutely NO INSIDE KNOWLEDGE) the Lifetime Update plan may be offered within a year. A larger number of Platinum owners climbed aboard that train last year and are for the most part very pleased with that description.
#6
bapu
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/27 13:01:38 (permalink)
scottfa
No, and if support is an important criteria i would  read these  forums carefully  before committing to Sonar.  


This forum is an excellent peer to peer help resource.
 
If you are patient and describe your problem in detail I want to say nearly all problems can be solved by many of the users here. I've seen it time and time again and in my own little way I've helped a few too.
#7
Anderton
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/27 13:49:57 (permalink)
slartabartfast
This is certainly not an issue unique to Cakewalk, but it is not a concern that should be dismissed out of hand.
 
The concept that "the software is practically guaranteed to have defects" is almost certainly an accurate observation, but it raises a major issue in commercial law.

 
The End User License Agreement for all software pretty much lets software companies off the hook. Part of the "fuzziness" comes from trying to define how much a bug impacts the usefulness of the software. It's obvious SONAR is very capable of making commercially successful music in a variety of genres. Some people consider any bug a showstopper, others consider no bug a showstopper if there's a workaround, others weigh one program's flaws against another to try and determine what's best for them, and others will never encounter particular bugs because they don't encounter those bugs in their workflow. As far as they know, the software is bug-free.
 
SONAR is a little different because of the rolling updates. There are three main types of bugs:
 
  • Ones that exist in the current version of the software, which a consumer can anticipate and therefore judge whether or not it matters. 
  • Bugs that come as a result of new features.
  • Bugs caused by interactions with something else (e.g., a poorly-written plug-in, a Windows update) which Cakewalk cannot anticipate.
 
The reality is that the majority of software requires payment past a certain point if you expect ongoing development and bug fixes. Avid is very upfront about their subscription program being necessary if you expect to have bug fixes. Most (not all) stop fixing bugs for a version after a new version is released, so you basically have to do an upgrade.
 
Bear in mind that with the rolling updates, whatever you have will continue to work, and if a previous update was more to your liking, you can continue to work with that. Noel has said that if there was indeed a bug of monumental proportions (e.g., a change in Windows that makes any version prior the very latest unusable), it would be made available.
 
The ultimate question is not which software has a greater or lesser number of bugs, it's which software is best matched to your intended usage. 
 
As to support, it depends on what you mean by "support." This is a term that's thrown around very loosely. To me, support means having a problem with software that is not revealed by an internet search, in an FAQ, or in the case of SONAR, cannot be resolved by the forum. I have seen instances where people have complained of not receiving support from Cakewalk for something that's explained in the documentation or solved in under 5 minutes using Google. I personally feel these kinds of queries deserve to go to the end of any support queue. 
 
I use a lot of programs and have found that the internet and forums are the best ways to resolve issues quickly. I still have open tickets with non-Cakewalk programs regarding issues that do not lend themselves to simple solutions; the support people acknowledge the issue but don't know how to solve it.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#8
ampfixer
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/27 14:59:28 (permalink)
As a former member of the American Society for Quality, I can't get behind a design philosophy that says defects are inevitable. It breeds complacency. Points 2 and 3 of Craig's list can be mitigated by the developer. Point 1 is an embarrassment. If you make something that has a defect through successive revisions, you need to get your house in order. Why? Because that defect will become harder to fix as everything around it changes and more features are added.
 
Don't disagree with Craig's comments but I do have a different view. 

Regards, John 
 I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
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#9
bitman
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/27 15:35:37 (permalink)
There is also "Bugs" where a thing worked in Xn but is broken in Platinum.
#10
Anonymungus!
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/27 21:58:10 (permalink)
I just use a spray can of RAID to take care of all the bugs in my computer

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#11
subtlearts
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 10:29:23 (permalink)
ampfixer
As a former member of the American Society for Quality, I can't get behind a design philosophy that says defects are inevitable. It breeds complacency...

 
Hmmm. I'm not a member of any fancy-sounding societies, but I don't see where "defects are inevitable" was offered as a design philosophy. It's just a reality, whether it is acknowledged or not, and more so in the world of insanely complex software, and Cakewalk has its particular approach to trying to mitigate it as much as possible in a way that strikes a balance between product development and innovation against customer satisfaction. Not necessarily the best possible balance or the best possible approach, but one that seems to work for lots of users, myself included. Craig simply articulated a bit more about how it works. 
 
I would say that "pretending that bugs and defects aren't inevitable" is arguably a more flawed philosophy than acknowledging reality, and trying to find ways to work around it as much as possible, with maximum customer satisfaction and viable business continuity as paramount operating goals. 
 
Any company which purports to guarantee a product without a single defect or bug or flaw... probably shouldn't be trusted. As Wesley put it in The Princess Bride... "Life is pain, Princess... Anyone who says differently is selling something"

tobias tinker 
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#12
ampfixer
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 11:55:39 (permalink)
I am not in disagreement with Craig's comments. His observations are spot-on. I simply think that defects are not inevitable and accepting them is the wrong way to go. Having said that, I realize that perfection comes at a cost. Defects in the code used in a spacecraft are far more significant than errors in the code for a DAW. That's one of the reasons it cost so much to launch rockets. Failure is not an option.
 
But should coders anywhere start from the premise that of 6 new features, 98% of the code will work? That's how I interpret the idea that bugs are inevitable.
 
I worked with a large corporation that took pride in the fact that their production compliance was always above 97%. They reported it every month and the employees thought they were knocking it out of the park. What they didn't report to the employees was that the ~3% non-conformance was costing the company over a million dollars per month and limiting their ability to do things like give the employees a raise. They also didn't mention that their chief competitor was always at a compliance rate above 99% and taking some of their business.

Regards, John 
 I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
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#13
Anderton
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 12:13:14 (permalink)
ampfixer
As a former member of the American Society for Quality, I can't get behind a design philosophy that says defects are inevitable. It breeds complacency. Points 2 and 3 of Craig's list can be mitigated by the developer. Point 1 is an embarrassment. If you make something that has a defect through successive revisions, you need to get your house in order. Why? Because that defect will become harder to fix as everything around it changes and more features are added.
 
Don't disagree with Craig's comments but I do have a different view. 




Well I actually agree with your view as to how things should be. The problem is "the real world." My gold standard for bug-free operation used to be the Mac OS, but that's no longer the case, and iOS is even more of a moving target.
 
This may be a naive attitude but I figure if a company like Apple with virtually unlimited resources can't avoid major bugs in a released version of the software, no music software company can come even close unless the software is a closed environment.
 
ampfixer
I worked with a large corporation that took pride in the fact that their production compliance was always above 97%. They reported it every month and the employees thought they were knocking it out of the park. What they didn't report to the employees was that the ~3% non-conformance was costing the company over a million dollars per month and limiting their ability to do things like give the employees a raise. They also didn't mention that their chief competitor was always at a compliance rate above 99% and taking some of their business.

 
Now THAT is the kind of real-world viewpoint often missing in forum discussions about business, software, engineering, etc. Errors have consequences beyond customer dissatisfaction.




The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#14
Cactus Music
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 13:07:48 (permalink)
I  owned a business ( Cactus )  and so I used to read books and go to seminars about improving your chances of actually making money. 
One lesson that I truly believed in was: 
10 happy customers might tell 10 people about your business in a positive light. 
1 Unhappy customer will tell 20 people or more in a negative light. 
 
Now fast forward to the internet and how consumers shop and make choices about which product to buy. 
There are always those reviews right handy on most shopping sites. I always read the reviews on Sweetwater as example. And for Sonar this forum might be there biggest "review" 
As said,we only hear the loudest from unhappy customers. 
It was even speculated why Cake might want to ditch the forum. 
But I think this forum is golden in keeping them in business because we provide a service to users that they would have to hire more staff to achieve. 
I help out here because I want Cakewalk to get better because then I'm going to benefit too. 

Johnny V  
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#15
rsinger
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 13:54:37 (permalink)
ampfixer
As a former member of the American Society for Quality, I can't get behind a design philosophy that says defects are inevitable. It breeds complacency. Points 2 and 3 of Craig's list can be mitigated by the developer. Point 1 is an embarrassment. If you make something that has a defect through successive revisions, you need to get your house in order. Why? Because that defect will become harder to fix as everything around it changes and more features are added.
 
Don't disagree with Craig's comments but I do have a different view. 




As an enthusiast I couldn't afford to buy virtually bug free software. Do you consider the big three OSs bug free? They aren't. The closest thing I know to bug free is termed safety critical - and that is not bug free, but it's as close as you will get. That is software that, if it fails, could result in the loss of human life. Safety critical OSs cost thousands of dollars. There is a class of tests called modified condition decision coverage -
 
“every condition in a decision in the program has taken all possible outcomes at least once, every decision in the program has taken all possible outcomes at least once, and each condition in a decision has been shown to independently affect that decision’s outcome. A condition is shown to independently affect a decision’s outcome by varying just that condition while holding fixed all other possible conditions” - Software Considerations in Airborne Systems and Equipment Certification, Document No. RTCA/DO-178B.
 
And that is just one class of tests, albeit the most expensive. That wouldn't be just the host, but all VSTs and VSTis have to be tested the same way. Safety critical SW has to be certified on specific HW, so you wouldn't be free to buy some generic HW - there would only be some small number of HW platforms you could use. So the HW would likely cost 2 or 3 times what most people are paying and windows/OSX/iOS apps wouldn't run on it so it would be dedicated HW. In general safety critical SW costs about 10 times as much to develop as normal SW, but if there are real-time constraints, think tracking, that number goes up to 20 to 30 times non safety critical costs.
 
Instead of $399, best case, Sonar Platinum would be around $7999, but it would be really solid  Of course you also have to double or triple the cost of the PC you're running on and throw in a couple thousand for the OS so a base DAW would be $12000. Omnisphere would add $9580, but it would be cheaper if it were a HW synth, so we wouldn't have it! Reaktor 6 $3980. 
 
Really?
 
http://www.rtcmagazine.com/articles/view/100010
 
http://www.risktec.co.uk/knowledge-bank/technical-articles/an-introduction-to-safety-critical-software.aspx
 
My 2 cents.
 

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#16
ampfixer
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 17:46:43 (permalink)
Thanks for the information. I agree with you that defect free anything is expensive, no argument. I'm feeling guilty that the thread has been hijacked but if anyone wants to talk about QA theory and application feel free to shoot me a PM.

Regards, John 
 I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
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#17
Anderton
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 18:27:04 (permalink)
Don't feel guilty, the question was answered in the first few posts and the subsequent discussion is worthwhile. The cost of music software is very low compared to the potential market size and amount of work required. Companies generally can't do more than they're already doing, or they would do so to gain a competitive advantage. What faces companies is deciding whether they're making the correct tradeoffs. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#18
abacab
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 18:30:12 (permalink)
vorxio
 
But what happens for the bug/fixes ?  Can I still receive the fixes ?
 
If I bought a software with a defect (that can be introduced in the last rolling update) I would like to have it fixed without "buying it again"
 



What you could easily do if this happened, is to use Command Center to roll back one release prior to the defect that was just introduced in the last rolling update.  Problem solved!

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#19
scottfa
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 21:06:45 (permalink)
bapu
scottfa
No, and if support is an important criteria i would  read these  forums carefully  before committing to Sonar.  


This forum is an excellent peer to peer help resource.
 
If you are patient and describe your problem in detail I want to say nearly all problems can be solved by many of the users here. I've seen it time and time again and in my own little way I've helped a few too.


Absolutely true... But as has been stated  many  times  this is not support. If the helpful people here such as yourself leave the forum for some reason the end user is out of luck. I can tell you that i have, as an experiment, tried booking a support phone call at least  once a week since last  May and have been unable to do so. If Cakewalk did not have the wonderful people on this forum i do not believe they would still be in business .  

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#20
chuckebaby
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 22:03:07 (permalink)
scottfa
If the helpful people here such as yourself leave the forum for some reason the end user is out of luck.



The guy has 75,000 posts. you seriously think he is going somewhere anytime soon ?
 
most of the users that help other users on this forum have been here for years and are regulars.
there's no way this place turns in to a ghost town unless cakewalk folds. (which I don't see happening) but if it did...Then you wont have to worry about this forum, support or the product.
 
scottfa
I can tell you that i have, as an experiment, tried booking a support phone call at least  once a week since last  May and have been unable to do so.

 
you've been wasting supports time trying some kind of experiment ?
Okay.
 

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#21
mudgel
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/28 23:52:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2017/01/29 12:58:08
Over the years there has been a cycle of people coming and going to and from the forum. One thing that hasn't really changed is the level of knowledge nor willingness to share it. Every cycle seems to have its group that seems to answer just about everything. Once you've been here for a while you'll notice that people you didn't know efore start to contribute more and they become part of the core group here to help make this a better community.

The sad reality is though, that none of us is indispensable. Except for bapu of course and not scook. Oh and not Anderton and not .......... and so it goes.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#22
Unknowen
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/29 00:52:48 (permalink)
if you're a Cakewalk fan... then stay with what you know...
if you're new to DAWs... look around, you really need to try a bunch of DAWs before you fall for a pitch...
Read Reviews, look at who may be offering the same deal as Catwalk that may have not had that deal last year... 
As far as Bug fixes... you need to read the bug reports and how things work with cakewalk...
As far as help, this forum is it and its great!
 
 
 
 

Hay look,
Somethings are not locked in stone... lol 3/18/2019
#23
marled
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/29 12:52:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Caa2 2017/01/29 13:36:32
Wow! This thread is very interesting! I really liked to read these comments above, especially the very realistic and neutral view of Craig, but also some of the critical voices.
 
I worked many years as software developer myself (unfortunately not for music software). So I really understand the difficulty and challenge to create software without bugs. But on the other hand I experienced a lot of situations where either managers did not want to invest some effort to improve software after its launch or developers preferred just to implement new fancy stuff instead of improving their former work. I think, regrettably it is true like mentioned above that today's software customers are used to deal with plenty of shortcomings, because the law is more on the side of the companies. But nevertheless I think that it is the customer's duty to remind the software companies (managers and developers) that they should also improve their existing products, surely considering what is possible in real life!
 
It is true that it costs money to make a software more bug-free, but on the other hand sometimes the available money is wasted for too many features. I am a little concerned that Sonar is going into excessive functionality and I know very well that this can spoil a software. There is no all-in-one DAW suitable for every purpose.
So like Craig mentioned, I hope that Cakewalk is making the correct tradeoffs, because I like Sonar!
#24
scottfa
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/29 15:04:38 (permalink)
chuckebaby
scottfa
If the helpful people here such as yourself leave the forum for some reason the end user is out of luck.



The guy has 75,000 posts. you seriously think he is going somewhere anytime soon ?
 
most of the users that help other users on this forum have been here for years and are regulars.
there's no way this place turns in to a ghost town unless cakewalk folds. (which I don't see happening) but if it did...Then you wont have to worry about this forum, support or the product.
 
scottfa
I can tell you that i have, as an experiment, tried booking a support phone call at least  once a week since last  May and have been unable to do so.

 
you've been wasting supports time trying some kind of experiment ?
Okay.
 


OK, for your sake, let me explain without bring delicate..... If scook or Mr Anderton DIE, or life interferers  with their volunteer efforts here then there will be next to no support. No one here has a commitment to Sonar, any kind of life changes can stop them from posting. Support from Cakewalk is, or at least least should be, a commitment  to support the product. It is not a volunteer effort.
 
To your second  comment, no I  do not waste support's  time. I try to book a call which is an   automated  process. Since i can never select  a time slot  ("Oh No, All agents are booked!") I can't  take up anyone's  time. By the way, the reason i do this is so i can tell others that support  is improved and that although there were problems in the past, now support is available.
In the future you might want to ask before you comment in a knee jerk fashion.

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#25
Anderton
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/29 15:49:15 (permalink)
scottfa
 
OK, for your sake, let me explain without bring delicate..... If scook or Mr Anderton DIE

 
Uh-oh...do you know something I don't know? 




The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Anderton
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/29 16:40:19 (permalink)
But seriously...support is not just phone calls. There have been plenty of instances where people posted "problems" that were handled in the FAQs, Knowledge Base, and online docs. I realize for some people it's easier to pick up the phone or post a thread than look for a solution, but the solutions to many issues are documented and can be found with a search.
 
Personally, I find the fastest way to find solutions to anything is to "ask the internet" first...especially with hardware, when I need to find out how to replace the parts in devices with "no user-serviceable parts inside." Or so they say 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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scottfa
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/29 18:15:45 (permalink)
Sorry, Mr Anderton, i was hoping to keep the info confidential........ LOL
In all seriousness, thanks for your contributions, i know you don't have to answer questions here.  

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#28
Anderton
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Re: Are bug-fix updates free after the one year of rolling updates? 2017/01/29 18:27:12 (permalink)
scottfa
Sorry, Mr Anderton, i was hoping to keep the info confidential........ LOL
In all seriousness, thanks for your contributions, i know you don't have to answer questions here.  



It's payback...I've learned a lot from this forum. 
 
Also, having used music software since the days of steam-powered synthesizers, I know how frustrating it can be when things don't work as expected. So if I know something that might be able to help, I'll do what I can.
 
Oh, and if you have any inside knowledge of maybe a plane flight I shouldn't take in the next few months, PM me 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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