ba_midi
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Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions,Let's talk about M/S Processing too?
I think there's been a very healthy discussion cycle going on with the release of the new leveling amp. So I thought I'd throw this out for everyone to consider ... MID/Side processing. I happen to be a big fan of it. I actually keep an M/S plugin on my Master Bus default setup always (bx_control2 if you must know). I won't say it applies to everything under the sun (though it might lol), but it does make a difference if you manage the lower frequencies in a mix. Try it. Experiment (as we should always do). Oh and it works nice with the leveling amp lol. Have fun.
post edited by ba_midi - 2012/03/30 12:38:05
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ba_midi
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/27 20:57:54
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Now if CW starts putting out M/S plugins/Pro Channel addons, hmmm ;) lol
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Chregg
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/27 21:17:01
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i think they get round to that, but personally i think theres gonna be a few more emulators on the way, like fairchild, neve, api and so on
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ba_midi
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 12:06:37
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I find it interesting no one wanted to engage yet) in the M/S topic.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 12:19:29
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That's one thing that sets T-Racks apart from most competition. The M/S is extremely handy and adds a whole new dimension to their plugs..
post edited by vintagevibe - 2012/03/28 13:26:24
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 12:29:04
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What's there to engage with Billy?
I'm already doing it, with VSTs I already own, in SONAR 8.5.
best regards,
mike
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John
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 12:31:27
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Some of the modules in PC have side chaining.
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ba_midi
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 13:42:46
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vintagevibe
That's one thing that sets T-Racks apart from most competition. The M/S is extremely handy and adds a whole new dimension to their plugs..
Actually - FabFilter, Izotope, and a few others have and continue to deploy M/S processing in all their plugins. T-Racks is also solid there. I guess M/S processing is either not a top-of-mind approach for the CW target audience at this time.
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John T
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 13:44:24
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Leapt to that conclusion a bit quickly. Almost as if it's what you'd already decided anyway.
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ba_midi
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 13:45:06
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mike_mccue
What's there to engage with Billy?
I'm already doing it, with VSTs I already own, in SONAR 8.5.
best regards,
mike
Doing it is nice ;) Discussing why, how, etc, is nice too - for those who may not be aware of its benefits. BUT - there's an old saying: "The harder you chase something, the further away it moves from you." This topic didn't seem to "take", so I'm just gonna let it go ;) If anyone does want to discuss M/S processing down the road, then we will but for now I'll just go back to scolling messages about the leveling amp lol.
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John T
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 13:46:28
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Slow down there, Billy, not all of us can be as hip as you to this at least 70 year old technique.
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ba_midi
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 13:49:23
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John T
Slow down there, Billy, not all of us can be as hip as you to this at least 70 year old technique.
Insteresting comment. My motivation was to discuss something that has helped me, my mixes, etc, as it has others, and make an attempt to share that info. Your comment has a certain slap to it. I don't claim to be hipper than anyone here, sir. Thanks for reminding just how weird some humans can be on forums lol. Anyway - moving on now.
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stevec
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:08:16
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Anyway - moving on now. Not so fast there, bubba...  Aside from adding an anaylzer to the QuadCurve EQ, my first choice for a new PC Module is (and has been) a variation of Channel Tools. And I think that would be a great place to house M/S processing. That said... While I wouldn't have chosen a leveling amp as the next PC module at this stage, geez, I sure do like it. 
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SvenArne
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:10:37
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I keep reading articles about M/S techniques, but I guess the mindset is kinda alien to me...
I only ever use M/S (inside Ozone) for improving rehearsal room stereo recordings, but a friend of mine swears by M/S processing for all manner of purposes, it seems.
What's your favorite application, Billy?
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bitflipper
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:12:36
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I am extremely hip. Unfortunately, I am hip based on the standards of hipness from 1973.
John, you're being disingenuous. Yes, M/S technology is almost as old as stereo recording, but it was invented to solve the problem of mono/stereo compatibility on vinyl records and only much later became a creative tool. And it's only been in the last 4-5 years that it's become a popular enhancement to digital plugins.
However, I get your point, which is "what is there to say about it, really?".
I think it's worthy of discussion for the simple reason that it's a useful technique that most bedroom recordists don't use. Or worse, use badly, to the detriment of mono compatibility.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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John T
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:15:43
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Oh, no, I think there's plenty to say about it. But such a conversation would possibly benefit from losing the over-arching "aren't I clever" smugness this one opened with.
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Starise
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:22:19
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I didn't personally detect that John, it is difficult to judge someones intent,and should i really?
I have been reading bamidi for awhile now and he has some useful things to say. If anything M/S is almost so common I forget about it, I probably needed a reminder to look at it again.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:26:14
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In a recent discussion about this it was also pointed out that M/S processing wasn't just applied for mono compatibility during playback.
It also served as a mastering strategy to make sure the needle wasn't forced out of the record's groove by low frequency movements that didn't really add much to the stereo imaging experienced by the listener. Making sure the low frequencies were centered and essentially mono, even with a stereo cartridge playback system, was a practical strategy.
I like to use M/S EQ to make sure the low frequencies have a centered and full frontal punch while the high frequencies can then seem relatively more active in portraying the stereo image.
best regards,
mike
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ba_midi
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:35:28
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stevec
Anyway - moving on now.
Not so fast there, bubba... Aside from adding an anaylzer to the QuadCurve EQ, my first choice for a new PC Module is (and has been) a variation of Channel Tools. And I think that would be a great place to house M/S processing.
That said... While I wouldn't have chosen a leveling amp as the next PC module at this stage, geez, I sure do like it.
Ah, ya know, I forgot about Channel tools even though I've always felt it's one of the better and well needed plugins that comes with Sonar. I'd like to see it improved as well -- similar to how bx_control allows for frequency domain in the M/S processing. That would be a welcome addition indeed.
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bitflipper
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:37:01
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My favorite application of M/S is using Pro-Q or Ozone to widen images by way of complimentary EQ boosts and cuts between mid and side components. Works well on drum overheads and acoustic guitars to nudge high-frequencies out of the center and toward the sides. IIRC there's a video on the FabFilter site that demonstrates the technique.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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ba_midi
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:38:53
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SvenArne
I keep reading articles about M/S techniques, but I guess the mindset is kinda alien to me...
I only ever use M/S (inside Ozone) for improving rehearsal room stereo recordings, but a friend of mine swears by M/S processing for all manner of purposes, it seems.
What's your favorite application, Billy?
I wouldn't say I have a favorite in that regard, Sven, though - as I said, I do use bx_control in my master bus chain as a default. I use that mostly to adjust the lower frequencies more than anything. And even using it in that limited way can yield great results. A lot of the modern plugins have M/S processing these days, which is good. And M/S processing isn't something that one HAS to use ALL the time. But having it available, like Ozone, Fab Filter, etc, do, is handy.
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ba_midi
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:40:10
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John T
Oh, no, I think there's plenty to say about it. But such a conversation would possibly benefit from losing the over-arching "aren't I clever" smugness this one opened with.
You really can be a jerk sometimes. Sheesh.
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ba_midi
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:44:26
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bitflipper
My favorite application of M/S is using Pro-Q or Ozone to widen images by way of complimentary EQ boosts and cuts between mid and side components. Works well on drum overheads and acoustic guitars to nudge high-frequencies out of the center and toward the sides. IIRC there's a video on the FabFilter site that demonstrates the technique.
That video you mention actually was one that opened me up more to M/S processing. And, like you, using it for freq spreads or opening up some space is a good use of it. Even when I just play with the freq setting in bx_control -- even slight variations - can open up the whole bottom end. On Dance type tracks this can be really useful. There's some really good info/videos from the Fabbers on this (using their plugins of course). And, btw, YOU (Bit) were one of the people who opened me up to M/S processing years ago.
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Jind
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:45:32
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Jind Sonar X2 PE, Cakewalk V Studio 100; Intel i7 w/ 16 GB Ram, MS Windows 8.1
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Jonbouy
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 14:48:56
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John
Some of the modules in PC have side chaining.
And this has precisely what to do with M/S processing?
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Jonbouy
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 15:01:35
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John T
Oh, no, I think there's plenty to say about it. But such a conversation would possibly benefit from losing the over-arching "aren't I clever" smugness this one opened with.
How does this person so consistently get away with such plain unfounded, contentless, nastiness on a daily basis?
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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chuckebaby
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 15:02:13
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to explore m/s processing is to explore the way you hear and interpt the laws of sound,in a sence it is to learn things about mixing and making things stand out like never before.anyone here that is just chomping at the bit,not knowing what thier saying should at least listen to a few examples,then return to the forum and try to explain in words.
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markno999
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 15:05:44
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Ba_midi, It is an interesting topic/technique and one that I didn't fully comprehend until very recently. BANDONTHERUN19 (Robby) posted the link below a few weeks back, and I found it to be very informative. In the video, Daniel Wyatt from Dubspot is demonstrating how he used Mid-Side EQ in Ozone to clean up and widen his mixes by pushing the bass up the center where it belongs and unlcuttering the sides by reducing some of the frequencies better suited down the middle (bass, kick). Gives is a wider, breathier, nore professional feel. I used the technique recently on a few mixes I couldn't seem to widen and un-muddy without totally destroying them, and it made a huge difference. I found less is more, even small changes, 1DB or less, gives very noticeable and pleasant results. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuYjo_UC8zI
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stevec
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 15:18:28
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I'd like to see it improved as well -- similar to how bx_control allows for frequency domain in the M/S processing. Yup. Perhaps something like passing M to the left side of Quad Curve (HP, Low & Low Mid), and S to the right side (LP, High Mid and High). Or something along those lines.
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:Aside from the Leveling Amp discussions, here's something to consider too ...
2012/03/28 18:04:13
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Jonbouy
John T
Oh, no, I think there's plenty to say about it. But such a conversation would possibly benefit from losing the over-arching "aren't I clever" smugness this one opened with.
How does this person so consistently get away with such plain unfounded, contentless, nastiness on a daily basis?
Sadly Jon, I'd imagine it's because a lot of folk around here condone, or worse still - join in with - his sarcastic personal witch-hunts. The bitter irony, as often seems the case with anonymous, self-important, self-appointed regulators of other peoples' online contributions is that they are usually just as gulity of the crimes they unilaterally accuse others of committing. For example, " over-arching "aren't I clever" smugness" would appear to describe its author to a tee. But nothing will change because too few people will stand above the parapet and call a spade a shovel.
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