CareyLetendre
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Attitude Towards P5
I know this is probably a dead horse so forgive me but i just have to get this off my chest. I've been following the evolution of Project5 since it's introduction in, when was that, winter 2003 and eventually ended up purchasing it at version 2. The problem i have is that it seems that a lot of people, users and non-users alike, can be somewhat critical of a program that i still consider to be in it's infancy. This is only the second revision of a completely new IP from Cakewalk for crying out loud. What should i expect? A full featured DAW? I say no. I remember the noise Ableton made with the introduction of Live; an innovative product with an different approach/philosophy to workflow. Sound familiar? Ableton have stated [and i paraphrase] that it wasn't until the release of version 4 that their original vision of Live had been fulfilled. Version 4? My goodness; that was how many years and versions from the initial release? How about Acid version 2, FL Studio version 2 [joke], or any other 'new generation' DAW? I can see the Cakewalk developers discussing P5 during the original conception phase and thinking: 'Hey i've got an idea.... Something different... A better way of doing things. Now let's see... how long would it take to build? 5 man years of development? Well that's not going to work. How about, before we get in too deep we''ll release a proof of concept version. Something that people can sink their teeth into and understand where we're coming from' Enter Project5 version 1. 'OK, that didn't quite work out the way we'd hoped. Let's rethink this again' Enter Project 5 version 2 'I think we're onto something here' ... to be continued Carey
post edited by CareyLetendre - 2007/02/08 17:11:48
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Markus Copol
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 17:05:00
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ORIGINAL: CareyLetendre
I know this is probably a dead horse so forgive me but i just have to get this off my chest.
I've been following the evolution of Project5 since it's introduction in, when was that, winter 2003 and eventually ended up purchasing it at version 2.
The problem i have is that it seems that a lot of people, users and non-users alike, can be somewhat critical of a program that i still consider to be in it's infancy. This is only the second revision of a completely new IP from Cakewalk for crying out loud. What should i expect? A full featured DAW? I say no.
I remember the noise Ableton made with the introduction of Live; an innovative product with an different approach/philosophy to workflow. Sound familiar? Ableton have stated [and i paraphrase] that it wasn't until the release of version 4 that their original vision of Live had been fulfilled. Version 4? My goodness; that was how many years and versions from the initial release?
How about Acid version 2, FL Studio version 2 [joke], or any other 'new generation' DAW?
I can see the Cakewalk developers discussing P5 during the original conception phase and thinking:
'Hey i've got an idea.... Something different... A better way of doing things. Now let's see... how long would it take to build? 5 man years of development? Well that's not going to work. How about, before we get in too deep we''ll release a proof of concept version. Something that people can sink their teeth into and understand where we're coming from'
Enter Project5 version 1.
'OK, that didn't quite work out the way we'd hoped. Let's rethink this again'
Enter Project 5 version 2
'I think we're onto something here'
... to be continued
Carey
I will make it short and sweet . A good artist can make the impossible with limited resources....evenrything extra is gravey . I am happy myself with P5 because it gets the job done. Everything that Cakewalk would add to it will be the" ice on the cake"
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CareyLetendre
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 17:14:59
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Thanks for the reply and don't get me wrong. I think P5 is a great program and there is no reason for not making great music with it. Cheers, Carey
post edited by CareyLetendre - 2007/02/08 17:36:21
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blipp
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 17:23:51
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Markus Copol wrote: I am happy myself with P5 because it gets the job done. Everything that Cakewalk would add to it will be the" ice on the cake"
Ditto.
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Markus Copol
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 17:25:14
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 cheers Carey
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naughtyhill
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 17:44:06
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I'm not quite getting your point carey. Do you think we **** and whine to much?  If so, you should check out Cubase's forums and see the difference with this forum.  With kind regards, NTH.
post edited by naughtyhill - 2007/02/08 18:05:08
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CareyLetendre
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 18:12:32
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ORIGINAL: naughtyhill
I'm not quite getting your point carey.
Do you think we **** and whine to much?
If so, you should check out Cubase's forums and see the difference with this forum.
With kind regards,
NTH.
Oh i hear what you're saying. I own Cubase SX 3 as well and i find that most of my posts there go largely unanswered. You could say there's a bit of attitude going on over there. I was just over at another P5 user's forum [which shall respectfully remain nameless] and found alot of people there, some of whom also are members of this forum, griping about P5 and having more discussion about which program to swith to rather than discussing and praising the laurels of P5 and getting some music on. So in the heat of passion i ripped this thread defending P5 and it's youthful, albeit naive, exuberance. Confusingly yours, Carey
post edited by CareyLetendre - 2007/02/08 18:33:46
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syrath
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 18:17:32
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Project5 has suffered from neglect. It takes regular updates and good marketing to keep a piece of DAW software in the minds of people. Project5 has had one major revision in its 4 year history and beyond the release times of P5 V1 and V2 I can honestly say I have hardly seen any marketing on it, beyond promotional emails sent to Sonar users.
You say P5 is in its infancy. Applications younger than Project5 have more features.
The whole soft synth era, is only 8 years old, prior to that software synthesizers were not exactly the same, you couldnt just plug one into a DAW for example. The first ones were the VB-1 and the LM4 plug ins that came with Cubase and Cubasis. Before that a DAW was a digital tape recorder. It could not produce sounds of its own. Im sure that P5 was in development for at least 1-2 years prior to release. So that puts it at 6 years old, only 2 years younger than the concept of soft synths hit. That actually makes it a veteran. Reason is older, and it has had a similar amount of updates. However its also been very well marketed. The company doing so is selling it as the flagship product.
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CareyLetendre
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 18:22:06
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ORIGINAL: syrath
Project5 has suffered from neglect. It takes regular updates and good marketing to keep a piece of DAW software in the minds of people. Project5 has had one major revision in its 4 year history and beyond the release times of P5 V1 and V2 I can honestly say I have hardly seen any marketing on it, beyond promotional emails sent to Sonar users.
You say P5 is in its infancy. Applications younger than Project5 have more features.
The whole soft synth era, is only 8 years old, prior to that software synthesizers were not exactly the same, you couldnt just plug one into a DAW for example. The first ones were the VB-1 and the LM4 plug ins that came with Cubase and Cubasis. Before that a DAW was a digital tape recorder. It could not produce sounds of its own. Im sure that P5 was in development for at least 1-2 years prior to release. So that puts it at 6 years old, only 2 years younger than the concept of soft synths hit. That actually makes it a veteran. Reason is older, and it has had a similar amount of updates. However its also been very well marketed. The company doing so is selling it as the flagship product.
Actually that's a very good point. It seems the conventional release schedule for major revisions is about what, 18 months? Perhpas the luke warm reception of P5 cooled Cakewalk's heals a little over this app. Thanks for your input, Carey Edit: Remember Neon? I think that was the first VST plugin. 
post edited by CareyLetendre - 2007/02/08 18:44:40
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syrath
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 18:27:26
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OMG I forgot neon lol. EDIT - oh and I do believe that Project5s lead programmer left Cakewalk. Which kind of left P5 in limbo for some time. This is a major contributing factor IMO. Project5 is an extremely powerful application and gets far less credit (outside of those using it) than it deserves. It is a fantastic piece of software. However it does need an overhaul beyond that which is being done in the 2.5 update. Im welcome for what we get , but to reestablish itself in the market it needs to be able to compete with its competitors. It needs 64 bit precision- why - because Tracktion already has it. It needs to have more quality synths bundled with it - why - because Tracktion , Reason, and FL come with a stack of them. It needs to be bigger and better than the 3 of them, when it is it will start to see converts from the programs it competes against. It can do this - why - because in many ways it is better than them. However you have to really give someone a reason to leave a DAW they have stuck with for over 4/5 years.
post edited by syrath - 2007/02/08 18:59:16
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MurderDethKill
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 18:31:02
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ORIGINAL: naughtyhill
I'm not quite getting your point...
Do you think we **** and whine to much?
Sayeth the man who hasn't been married twice yet . It's Discuss & make a Valid Complaint!  (Yes, Dear! )
post edited by MurderDethKill - 2007/02/08 18:54:26
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axe
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 18:56:01
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Project suffers from a lack of direction. There is no question that it will never compete with a platform like Live as this would require tight integration with Sonar to achieve the audio functions that then would surpass Live. It would also take some other improvements.
Given that, I see P5 as being more on the scale of Home Studio as they borrow a few features from Sonar to up its audio capabilities. It's clearly targeted at the hobby market not the Pro.
Cakewalk seems to be a bit confused as to what to do, it is obvious when you look at the product and the development Blog. You see so much potential but it is just not being seized.
AXE
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Digital Aura
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 19:36:01
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ORIGINAL: naughtyhill
Do you think we **** and whine to much?
....it does seem to be getting that way as of late!
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:10:
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 19:41:47
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once the new update hits....i will have everything i ever needed to work with..... well...except for a few new toys....  tax return money is a comin!
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crabtwins
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 19:52:25
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I'm guilty of complaining about stuff. P5 is the bomb and it is only cause it seems so simple to do some of this stuff. I am an engineer and I know software isnt easy by any stretch what I mean is that, they seem like implementation would occur faster. Colors for example thats all I want. But your right it is a great product. And v2 was light years beyond the previous in my opinion, but what do I know.  I have no idea what this emoticon means
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CareyLetendre
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 20:03:05
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ORIGINAL: :10:
once the new update hits....i will have everything i ever needed to work with.....
well...except for a few new toys....
tax return money is a comin!
That's good to hear and therefore no surprise that you, along with a handful of other seasoned P5 users, are one of the more prolific contributors to the P5 music scene. You're not fussing with the greener grass of other workstations but instead just mowing them down and milling them out. Carey
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syrath
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 20:18:05
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Im definitely not about to jump ship, Im in for the long haul. Im just looking at it from a point of view , if you were handed Reason, Tracktion, Fruityloops and Project5 and you had never tried any of them, but had read the music press. The majority share would go to Reason, regardless of how good the rest are. There is "reason" for this and it isnt necassarily because Reason is better. If you look at it from a feature point of view, then perhaps Tracktion might win out. If you actually spent some time with each of the programs then Project5, I suspect, would actually feature much higher.
So how do you get people to try it. I tried to put in some time to a website so that it would teach people the basics and get them over the first hurdle.
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AT
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 21:01:29
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Stuart, et al.
Reason was the 1st "all in one" production software, which is where it made its rep.
Live was the 1st software made for performance. Ditto about rep.
P5 is kinda neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat, came along after yet does more than the the other two so called "leaders" in the field. Coming late is a killer, in many respects, unless you get lucky or do everything very well or the leading software screws up. Look at Avid, Digi and even Microsoft. In the business world (such as recording studios) once something becomes the standard it is nigh impossible to change the standard since everyone knows how to work with the standard and has the invested in the hardware.
The industry leader in loop style software either makes its money there, or it gets absorbed into SONAR (as the looping/midi part of SONAR like many have suggested) or withers on the virtual vine. I don't mess with the groove matrix too much, but that is obviously what makes it a live looper - the one niche still up for grabs. Other than the matrix, there is nothing in P5 that can easily be added into SONAr.
I actually find P5 easier for many tasks than SONAR, tho I have many more hours on more traditional DAWs. If they put those parts into a SONAR lite I'd be happy - then add more features to build up to SONAR. But to make P5 viable Cake needs to grab the live, DJ style preformance market (along with all the cool DAW like things) and become the standard. That way it can draw in the kids and DJs and non-musicians.
What other synths does P5 need to have a good, basic synth selection? Groove synth is a good basic synth, Dim as a high class sampler, a new Psyn as the VA, and a good drum machine (not two - that only confuses people). I'd suggest a patten seq like FL for drums integraded with a drum pad. P5 already includes a nice selection of loops and clips. And an expanded groove matrix so it becomes the main feature for arranging loops.
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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three_eyed_otter
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 21:04:53
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It's clearly targeted at the hobby market not the Pro. I guess I'll have to tell my pro level UAD card that it's no longer allowed to play w/P5v2.  Hey Axe I disagree on the premise that P5v2 lacks so many pro level sequencer features that it would take a real pro to use P5v2 to get a pro level track. Editing capabilities are slight--so you better be able to play. Bussing capabilities are slight--so you better have a miserly approach when it comes to plug ins. Plugins are slight--so you better know how to utilize an EQ to get the most out of what you got. Heck the list goes on but the bottom line is that P5v2 lacks some of what are considered pro level sequencer features so you'd better know how to get the job done or you'd get none. All in jest. have a good one 3Eo
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xenohazard
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 23:19:07
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Live 4.0 in four years. Project5 4.0 in 10 years. See the difference? I'm not going to live forever.
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ATS
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/08 23:46:19
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ORIGINAL: Markus Copol
ORIGINAL: CareyLetendre
I know this is probably a dead horse so forgive me but i just have to get this off my chest.
I've been following the evolution of Project5 since it's introduction in, when was that, winter 2003 and eventually ended up purchasing it at version 2.
The problem i have is that it seems that a lot of people, users and non-users alike, can be somewhat critical of a program that i still consider to be in it's infancy. This is only the second revision of a completely new IP from Cakewalk for crying out loud. What should i expect? A full featured DAW? I say no.
I remember the noise Ableton made with the introduction of Live; an innovative product with an different approach/philosophy to workflow. Sound familiar? Ableton have stated [and i paraphrase] that it wasn't until the release of version 4 that their original vision of Live had been fulfilled. Version 4? My goodness; that was how many years and versions from the initial release?
How about Acid version 2, FL Studio version 2 [joke], or any other 'new generation' DAW?
I can see the Cakewalk developers discussing P5 during the original conception phase and thinking:
'Hey i've got an idea.... Something different... A better way of doing things. Now let's see... how long would it take to build? 5 man years of development? Well that's not going to work. How about, before we get in too deep we''ll release a proof of concept version. Something that people can sink their teeth into and understand where we're coming from'
Enter Project5 version 1.
'OK, that didn't quite work out the way we'd hoped. Let's rethink this again'
Enter Project 5 version 2
'I think we're onto something here'
... to be continued
Carey
I will make it short and sweet .
A good artist can make the impossible with limited resources....evenrything extra is gravey .
I am happy myself with P5 because it gets the job done. Everything that Cakewalk would add to it will be the" ice on the cake"
I agreee except I want dual processor support. If I get that that is all I need. We are already getting VST support without the wrapper. So if that all my dreams come true.
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DayDrumFour
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/09 00:15:11
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The fact that all other programs have had so many updates tells me....
1. They still can't get it right.
2. P5 is still the closest to getting it right.
I have authentic analog drum machine samples.
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naughtyhill
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/09 13:48:18
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ORIGINAL: DayDrumFour
The fact that all other programs have had so many updates tells me....
1. They still can't get it right.
2. P5 is still the closest to getting it right.
YEAAAAHHHH!!!!! It starts up within 2 seconds and it never ever crashes on me. What's not pro about that! It's a tool for me to make pro-ductions.
post edited by naughtyhill - 2007/02/09 14:14:05
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steve austin 
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/13 01:04:02
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well mackies tracktion 3 will be released shortly and it comes with a whole host of effects synths preloaded samples and has a simple to use interface including newly implemented high quality pitch shifting and time stretching.
it also has a 64 bit engine and i believe only project 5 and tracktion will be the way to go.
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ecamburn
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/13 08:43:57
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Carey,
I appreciate the sentiment of the original post. For what I use it for - midi tracking and arranging - P5 works very well. I personally don't see anything else out there that performs this function as well.
I think most people who post here share the sentiment that P5 is a great program. They just want to see it get better.
Eric
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axe
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/13 11:04:05
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Yes, the tone can certainly get misconstrued at times :)
I like P5, so much so that it really frustrates me to see Cakewalk stumble in some obvious areas.
3Eo, there is not question that P5 lives more in the hobby space right now. Get it's features actively available to Sonar it there is no question it kicks to the next level. It looks like that was shelfed for P5v2.5 so we will see where it goes in P5v3.
P5v2.5 shores up it competitive weaknesses and adds some audio capabilities that was a pretty obvious weakness.
What shocks me is Cakewalk's attitude towards integration with their own software and an obvious lack of direction in this area.
AXE
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wgcabp
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/13 11:18:11
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ORIGINAL: CareyLetendre
I was just over at another P5 user's forum [which shall respectfully remain nameless]... Respectfully, let's NAME IT ...and found alot of people there, some of whom also are members of this forum, griping about P5 and having more discussion about which program to swith to rather than discussing and praising the laurels of P5 and getting some music on. Plenty of music "gets on" over at the other forum. You probably know that, since you just signed up as a member. The fact that a large portion of us "over there" don't bother posting over "here" probably also tells you something about our frustration with this forum. A year ago (and long before) I posted here everyday, trying to be as helpful as I could. Click the search button and type in my name, you'll see I'm not lying. As soon as this forum started taking a turn for the worse, a friend of mine and I started discussing the idea of another forum. Posting "there" involves lots of jokes and useless information, because we're all friends there and like to banter about. However, if you dig a little deeper, you'll find everything including, but not limited to -- brilliant B Rock synth tutorials, practicing tips and tricks from people like myself, in-depth discussion about everything from developing a mixing soundstage to AudioSnap, microphone polar patterns, lots and lots of in-depth theory discussion from people like myself and others that have training in that area, all kinds of discussions about virtually every genre of music and, oh yeah, lots of debate about different hosts. That means ProTools, Sonar, Live, Reason, FruityLoops, Tracktion and just about everything else on the market. I don't think the fact that we debate other hosts has anything at all to do with any "loyalty" to P5. What it's about is the freedom to express what we really think and get feedback from other users who are in the same boat without doing it on Cakewalk's dime. I made a lot of friends on this forum back in the old days before it got out of hand. I miss it. Thankfully, I can still talk to those same people somewhere else. WC
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EarthBound
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/13 12:02:15
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I waited and researched and demo'd and read and worried my decision between Traction / FL / Cube / Sonar / P5 / Sony / Magix [I know...]
I went with P5 because it had the features that I thought I'd use and need most....and I feel good about my decision. Even better with the upcoming free upgrades.
The audio, errrrr, non-audio editing functions somehow failed to show themselves, errr lack of selves to me beforehand....but with rewire [oh joy...] that's at least do-able.
Love P5.....absolutely love it.
My Music...over 20 songs now! Built by me PC- unclocked I7/liquid cooled/16G-RAM (with potential of 32G)/2TB-ROM/MIAMIDI-sc/killer 1G gc/V5 case/1000w/Blue Fans everywhere/6G-SATA connections/its pretty
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Mycranium
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/13 13:02:17
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I admit I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but it strikes me that whenever I check out this P5 forum the new messages are predominantly
[Track]...
[Track]...
[Track]...
[Track]...
[Track]...
IQ in 2.5?
[Track]...
[Track]...
Draw your own conclusions.
-Mike
Win8.1 x64 Intel I7 4770K 32GB RAM Asus Maximus VI Formula mobo Asus GTX780TI-DC2OC-3GD5 video card MOTU Ultralite E-MU Xboard 49 M-Audio Studiophile BX5 Monitors Sonar X3 Platinum, Dim Pro, Rapture, GPO, JABB, Z3TA+ 2 Logitech T630 touch mouse
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blipp
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RE: Attitude Towards P5
2007/02/13 13:03:42
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ORIGINAL: Mycranium
I admit I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but it strikes me that whenever I check out this P5 forum the new messages are predominantly
[Track]...
[Track]...
[Track]...
[Track]...
[Track]...
IQ in 2.5?
[Track]...
[Track]...
Draw your own conclusions.
-Mike
yeah it means we like music.
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