Helpful ReplyAudio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed?

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neonerd
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2016/09/12 18:04:58 (permalink)

Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed?

Facts: Using Sonar forever. On Platinum, latest release.  Win 10, Big Ass Huge Computer (32GB Ram, EVGA Classified MB, 12 Cores 5820K, SSD Samsung 840, Audient ID22, every bit of information about my system is pasted below).
 
Will heavenly angels descend on my musical creations and turn this fateful tale?
 
PROBLEM: The Pesky Audio Engine Stopped Unexpectedly.
It's not a driver latency issue, no matter the latency, Sonar decides to STOP playing audio at very specific points of my projects. The current project is no exception as the beast just arrived. Yay! Read on.. if you dare...
 
Let's start with, in this case, two Sonar files to keep the dark illustration simple:
1) Main Project File - 32 Bit, 44K. All working well... then...
2) Drum Tracking File - 32 Bit, 44K. Select One Bar and 8 tracks of drums, Bouncing the clips so it doesn't copy the whole 180MB audio file then paste to #1 Main Project File.
3) Play audio and BAM!!! Yes, The Audio Dropout shows up and the file won't play at this specific pointer. It won't even start running within this one bar section. I have to go a few bars earlier for it to start playing always to FAIL at the specific pasted section.
 
What I've tried to do:
Does not work: Increase latency on the Audience ID22 (Awesome audio interface, way better then my previous RME Babyface BTW).
Does not work: Turn off ALL plugins with the FX button so CPU is at near zero.
Does not work: A brand new, practically empty 1TB SSD hard drive.
 
Happens in many Sonar projects: Once I get going on a project, it can expand to many tracks, but eventually, some recorded audio will screw me. The dropout is NEVER with a synth. 
 
Impractical Solution: With my Sonar projects, it's always some audio that I recorded that eventually is the problem. I run around the file freezing tracks, that previously worked, like guitar, vocals, etc.. and then, finally the dropout goes away.  
 
Check out this hilarious fix to the problem above in #1 Main File.  a) Take the 8 new tracks, one bar and FREEZE them. Yay, it works and audio won't drop out. Wait, kids, it gets better.  UNDO the bounce and it STILL works without an audio dropout.  Huh?  So apparently, Sonar interprets, caches, indexes, waveform previews, or "who knows?" the original audio file a certain way, but it's corrupt to give a dropout. Is the "Audio Dropout" error (Ummm bug) just lazy programming and the real error isn't showing up? I do get the major pop-up error about corrupt audio in the advanced stages of this dilemma at times, BTW.
 
Is this my solution? Bounce and unbounce every new audio recorded track? (I'll try it for now). Is the bug in the waveform preview?   These files are simple audio files so certainly aren't causing a CPU issue. Whatever plugins are on the tracks does not make a difference. Freezing audio in Whack-a-mole fashion is not a workable solution as it adds way too much time to the production process. "In the midst of creative bliss, the dark clouds descended and the buzzkill grim reaper arrived to slaughter the ecstatic treble vibes of the unsuspecting producer."
 
It is possible: That this bug only appears when PASTED audio exists in a track. So the PASTE function may be the culprit, which is clear in the example above.
 
YOUR SOLUTION: 
How can I use Sonar professionally?
It's the end of the road. Lucky me, I own "Lifetime Updates" (at present) from Hell!!!  Get your bank account ready to receive CASH because you're a genius who has the iron-clad fix to this problem. $$ Reward to fix this problem, which is very likely a BUG in Sonar.  You can even come to my house in Los Angeles. I will pay you $$$.
 
Thank you,
 
DannyK
 
SIV64X - System Information Viewer V5.12 MINTYJAMBOX::minty
Windows 10 x64 Professional (Single User) V10.00 Build 10586 TH2 EVGA 151-HE-E999 MINTYJAMBOX::minty English (0409) United States (1)
Workgroup WORKGROUP 00 12:45:52 2016-09-12 13:51:08 [2.13GHz Quad DDR4 RAM] PCIe x8@1 (x8@3) CLK:DRAM 3:32 PKG 48°C
Resource Usage 46% [1] 12% Current Maximum DDR4 RAM CAS Latency 15
System Physical Memory 15.00GB 933.66MB 32.00GB RAS to CAS Delay (tRCD)15
System Paging File 16.90GB 19.77GB 36.68GB RAS Precharge (tRP) 15
System File Cache 16.27GB 12.81GB 29.07GB Cycle Time (tRAS) 35 (4)
Row Cycle Time (tRC) 50 2T
CPUs 12 Cores 6 Chips 1 Disks 31°C 32°C 36°C 29°C NA 37°C NA DIMMs 38°C 36°C 37°C 37°C
Sensor Fintek F71889A MB 40°C 34°C I/O +3.33 PSU +5.47 +7.68 +5.04 VBAT +3.36 Fans 1,236 0 0 0
Processor Clock 0.8% CPU Utilisation Volts Temp Power APIC Socket R2 LGA-2011-3 Intel Core i7 Hexa 5820K (Haswell-E) 3.30GHz [R2]
CPU-0 1.20GHz x12 100MHz K 1% 0.75 36°C 39.51 0.0.0 Technology 22nm x64 Family 6 Model 63 (3F) Stepping 2 Revision 36
CPU-1 1.20GHz x12 100MHz CPU-1 is Idle 0.0.1 CPUs 12 Cores 6x2 Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5820K CPU @ 3.30GHz
CPU-2 1.20GHz x12 100MHz U 2% 0.75 36°C 39.51 0.1.0 L1 Code Cache (2) 8-way 64-byte 6 x 32KB Core 0.78 volts
CPU-3 1.20GHz x12 100MHz CPU-3 is Idle 0.1.1 L1 Data Cache (2) 8-way 64-byte 6 x 32KB [3/3]Temp 42.0°C (41-43)
CPU-4 1.20GHz x12 100MHz CPU-4 is Idle 0.75 35°C 39.51 0.2.0 L2 Unified Cache (2) 8-way 64-byte 6 x 256KB [8]Fan 1,236 RPM
CPU-5 1.20GHz x12 100MHz D 2% I 1% 0.2.1 L3 Unified Cache (12) 20-way 64-byte 1 x 15MB [25]Power 37.05 Watts
CPU-6 1.20GHz x12 100MHz CPU-6 is Idle 0.75 33°C 39.51 0.3.0 [Cache-0 Latency] [MMX SSE4.2 XD VMX AVX2] Agent 1.20GHz
CPU-7 1.20GHz x12 100MHz CPU-7 is Idle 0.3.1
CPU-8 1.20GHz x12 100MHz U 1% 0.75 37°C 39.51 0.4.0 Memory GPU 2.0% GPU Utilisation Volts Temp Video
CPU-9 1.20GHz x12 100MHz I 1% 0.4.1 GPU-0 405MHz P8 135MHz Activity 4.0 % 0.99 37°C 405MHz
CPU-10 1.20GHz x12 100MHz K 2% 0.77 37°C 39.51 0.5.0 GPU-1 405MHz P8 135MHz Activity 0.0 % 0.99 37°C 405MHz
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#1
Anderton
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/12 18:18:47 (permalink)
If the audio can't stream, the engine will stop. This is what led me to find the Week 35 tip in the "Friday's Tip of the Week" thread. Don't know what graphics card you're using, but check if there are other audio drivers installed as part of your graphics driver package that have the capability to take over your system. Some high-performance cards prioritize graphics over audio.
 
There's zero guarantee this is the issue, but it's easy to check so there's no harm in seeing if it makes a difference. Other than that, some quality time with DPC latency checker might reveal what's pushing SONAR aside. That it happens in the same place every time doesn't necessarily implicate SONAR if there's a lot of feverish pointing to various places on your data drive happening more or less simultaneously.
 
Good luck. Maybe someone else has experienced this and can help, but I cannot begin to tell you how much disabling "rogue" drivers made my entire system so much happier for real-time streaming. BTW - even if you do disable drivers, sometimes Windows will be "helpful" and re-enable them when updating.
 
It seems unlikely it's a bug in SONAR because if it was, this forum would be lit up with people having similar problems.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#2
bapu
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/12 18:19:07 (permalink)
If I bring you my computer and we load your project and it DOES NOT happen, what is my $reward?
 
#3
Base 57
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/12 18:23:13 (permalink)
  It would be great to have you pay for a round trip from MSY to LAX. However, I think if you would select your imported clips and then do a "bounce to clips" instead of freezing they will then work correctly.
#4
bapu
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/12 18:25:37 (permalink)
I live in Thousand Oaks. Downtown L.A. is only a 30 minute drive (not in rush hour though).
#5
Unknowen
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/12 18:34:25 (permalink)
What I would try is, after you create a bounce or copy paste or other things that seem to make it drop out. After you preform the action and before you hit play, save project and exit, reboot… Then hit play…
 
peace!

Hay look,
Somethings are not locked in stone... lol 3/18/2019
#6
arachnaut
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/12 18:41:06 (permalink)
Once I was beta testing some high performance VST and I was getting dropouts.
I changed the Config file settings 'DropoutMsec' to 500.
I think that helped, but I also increased 'ExtraPluginBufs' and maybe some other stuff.
That was a year or two ago and I haven't changed them back, so I think they are harmless changes.
 
Might not help you at all.
 
LatencyMon from Resplendence.com is valuable.
 

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SONAR Platinum - x64  - Windows 10 Pro 
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#7
brundlefly
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/12 19:35:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Lordbob13 2016/09/13 07:46:07
Without painstakingly re-reading to separate the factual wheat from the editorial chaff of your description of the symptoms and conditions, I'm going to jump out on a limb and guess that this is probably an audio file streaming issue, and you need to increase your disk playback buffer or move the project audio to a faster drive. You didn't mention anything related to disk usage or performance which would be particularly relevant to an issue that crops up once the track count gets to a certain point.
 
Copying the project with all its audio to a new per-project folder might help consolidate the audio files to reduce seek/read times that are causing a dropout.
 
Anti-virus software could also be a factor.

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#8
PhilW
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/12 19:37:05 (permalink)
Just a random thought, but could it be related to 32-bit audio? I'm pretty sure most people(?) use 24-bit because there's plenty of headroom there.   Does bouncing to 24-bit files make a difference?
#9
bitflipper
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/12 21:38:12 (permalink)
What type of files are you pasting? Could they be from iTunes, by any chance?


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#10
bvideo
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/13 00:57:52 (permalink)
I wonder if this bug has anything to do with two projects open and exclusive owning or mapping of the particular audio file. I.e. the copy from one project makes a reference to (a portion of) a file of that project and then the second project has trouble opening and seeking to that (portion of) the file during playback. After pasting the clip segment, does the clip inspector property refer to the original file? If so, the two projects are now sharing that file. Interesting that the second project can bounce/freeze the file (i.e. can read it) but couldn't play it. Interesting again that undo of bounce/freeze makes it playable. And this is still with both projects open? Something to try:Select that clip in the new project, then do Track view -> Clips -> Apply trimming, just in case that refreshes whatever internal structure is out of whack.

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#11
Boydie
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/13 02:52:06 (permalink)
In addition to the excellent response so far I would double check what driver mode you are using?

ASIO would be the preferred mode but if you are already in this mode it may be worth giving WDM mode a whirl

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#12
davec69
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/13 18:00:33 (permalink)
How many hard drives do you have?  I see the SSD Samsung 840 mentioned above.  Do you have separate drives for your operating system, samples, project data, ect?  I have my operating system on one drive, my Cakewalk projects on a different drive, my sample data, vsti data and backups each on their own drives.   Trying to run everything from one hard drive, can really impede performance.
 
A few things that I've done recently, and it seems to have really helped with those dreaded Audio Engine Stops.
 
1. Installed "Auslogics Disc Defrag"  (for non SSD drives only).  Run this once a week or so, to defrag and optimize my spinning data, and sample drives, to keep them from getting too fragmented, which can slow down performance.  FYI.  I don't have any SSD drives, but from what I've read, it's not good to defrag them.  It can shorten their useful life.
 
2.  Installed Intel's free "Intel Extreme Tuning Utility" software.  (For Intel CPU's only).  This software can be used to benchmark, overclock, and tweak your system, to make sure that you are getting the best performance.  You can even download profiles from other users, and try them on your system.  I was able to bump up performance quite a bit on my system (which is an i7 processor from a few years ago).
https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/24075/Intel-Extreme-Tuning-Utility-Intel-XTU-
 
3.  Install "Novabench" Benchmarking Software.  Free software can be used to compare your system to others with similar systems.  Helps to see if any of the hardware components are performing below the norms that other users are getting.  https://novabench.com/
 
4.  Make sure that no other audio components in your system are interfering.  I went through Windows Device Manager and disabled all audio drivers which were not needed.  Things like motherboard sound drivers, audio drivers for my 2nd monitor.  Not even sure why those were installed.  If you have ASIO4All installed, uninstall it.  It can be known to interfere with other audio drivers.
 
5.  While in device manager, go through all of the items under the "Universal Serial Bus Controllers" tab.  Double click each one and look for a "Power Management" tab at the top (not all of them have this tab).  Click this and see if "Allow the computer to to turn off to save power" is checked.  If it is, uncheck it.  Windows USB power saving features are cool, but can really screw with DAW performance.  Things like delaying USB drive reads and writes, disconnecting midi controllers when not in use, ect.
 
6.  While you're at it, right click on the windows logo at the bottom left and click "Power Options"  See what power saving plan that windows is using by default.  Usually it's on "Balanced".  I switch mine to "High Performance", to keep Windows from putting system components to sleep, to save power.   I think, that if you install the Intel Tuning Utility mentioned above, you get a few additional Power Plans to choose from.
 
7.  Check your Sonar config file in "Preferences>Audio>Configuration file"   There are several forum threads about changes that may or may not be helpful.   I usually only change "Threadschedulingmodel" to 2.  Supposedly works better for newer processors.  I've tried tweaking other things, but I haven't seen any noticeable difference, so I usually stick with the default for everything else.
 
8.  "CPU Park Control" is a cool CPU software which can help identify if you are getting full use of your CPU.  It's free, might be worth trying that.  https://bitsum.com/parkcontrol/
 
Try some or all of the above.  Maybe something will help. 
 

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#13
dan le
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/13 18:35:22 (permalink)
Hi, to the original OP, are you using the same Template for new projects?
dan
#14
PeterMc
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/13 18:37:27 (permalink)
Samsung 840 Evo SSDs had a problem where disk reads slowed down over time. Is your disk an Evo version?
 
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9196/samsung-releases-second-840-evo-fix
 
To fix, install Samsung's Magician software from here:
 
http://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/download/tools.html?CID=AFL-hq-mul-0813-11000279
 
This software will also benchmark your drive, and tell you if it's using the right AHCI mode rather than IDE. Mine wasn't, and making the change (which is a bit tricky, so Google it), doubled read and write performance on my SSD.

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#15
neonerd
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/14 16:43:42 (permalink)
Hello! Everyone has been incredibly helpful at 
1) providing killer insight and ideas. (thank you!)
2) dealing with the "editorial chaff" which was part of my original post, and likely to continue a tad.
(It's a healing mechanism for me to handle the biting frustration. Tom Brady throws balls to Giselle in his downtime, I have editorial chaff).
 
NEW UPDATE - OFFLINE INSIGHT:
I have responses to ideas below, but new insight is that this is an offline issue as well. I've figured out the following direct correlation when exporting the mix: I'm not able to EXPORT the project when this error appears. I simply get this informative gem of a popup whether I export with or without plugins. If the project file won't play 45% of the way through, the export fails at, from what I can tell, the same spot or 45% of the way through the export.
 
The Far Side - by Gary Larson

 
MY RESPONSES TO AMAZING FORUM EXPERTS:
Craig: I've tried disabling all other audio drivers aside from Audient including graphics card audio and rebooting. 
Bapu: I could bounce the clips and not freeze, but freezing solves the problem eventually and finds the corrupt audio file. You can come by, however I have to have this working on this computer. :)  I'm in Weho BTW.
Passive Drift: Probably a good idea to restart as it seems to be completely random when it shows up but the dropouts remain in the consistent location, but impractical to quit every time in the long-haul.
arachnaut: tweaked these setting to no avail. Dropout, extraplug, etc.. - but seems to be the same offline
PhilW: You may be correct, but I Loooooooooove the headroom that 32-bit audio provides me. I'd hate to have to switch to 24bit. If it is 32bit it's a bug to be fixed!
BitFlipper: Pasting within Sonar. I import every file, such as a loop to convert to 32bit so I don't have any inconsistent bit rates.
Bvideo: Same problem occurs with just one project.
Boydie: NO WDM option which is way backwards for me anyway
Davec69: My main drive is SSD and the Sonar file drive is SSD. And I have a few other drives with libraries. Kontakt libraries are on a 3rd HDD.  My system is pretty tweaked and I can to to town here, however does the fact that there's corruption give you new insight?  I tried all config file tweaks.  I'm going to dig further into your excellent performance enhancement ideas.
Dan Le: I do use the same template. I'm gonna create a new template going forward, but I have a whole record on this template!! :)
PeterMC: I've used Samsung Magician it in the past and I'll try again. Configuring now.
 
--- More soon.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
#16
brundlefly
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/15 12:58:46 (permalink)
If copying the project (with audio) to a different folder on the same SSD has no effect, I suggest you try copying it to one of your other drives just to be sure it's not a problem with that particular device.
 
Also, regarding your system being 'pretty tweaked', this could easily be causing/contributing to the problem. In particular, if you've set processor scheduling for best performance of 'Background Services' instead of 'Programs', I suggest you undo that long-ago 'debunked' tweak.
 
Incidentally, thanks for taking my 'editorial chaff' comment in stride. 

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#17
Anderton
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/15 21:45:14 (permalink)
<<PhilW: You may be correct, but I Loooooooooove the headroom that 32-bit audio provides me. I'd hate to have to switch to 24bit.>>
 
No matter how good your converters are, you're not even getting 24 bits going in and out of your audio interface, let alone 32. The mix engine and processing is 64-bit inside SONAR, which is where the extra resolution actually matters.
 
I guarantee 32 vs 24 bits would not hold up in a blind A/B test as soon as it becomes analog, because both would give you about 20-22 bits of "real"resolution when you take the noise floor, circuit board layout, and D/A converter trimming inaccuracies into account.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#18
bvideo
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/16 00:51:08 (permalink)
@neonerd re: 32 bit: The headroom of 32 bits that maybe you want is available in Edit->Preferences->File - File Bit Depths [ Render Bit Depth ]. This refers to file-stored bounces, freezes, etc. and can hold hotter or higher resolution signals than you can record, play back, or export to typical devices.

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#19
Synaptic
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Re: Audio Engine Stopped - Will Not Go Away!! - $$$ Reward - Bug exposed? 2016/09/16 01:41:26 (permalink)
a while ago I was having no end of problems with audio engine stopping and dropouts.
One setting worked for me - MaxThreadCount
you find this in Preferences->configuration File -> properties list 2nd from top
  • default is 0 (all cores/threads running)
  • Change this to 5 or 4 and see if you still get the same issue ( you have a hexacore - 6 cores/12 threads - so you should restrict to just physical cores. changing to some number above 5 will NOT work ) 
 
Why this may work - Sonar is pretty efficient in thread usage but some devices drivers hold off either cores or threads and this causes drop outs. by restricting Sonar to less than maximum cores, you provide some 'breathing room' for bad device drivers or other sw that is monopolizing a core/thread. 
 
If this does actually work, it is not a total solution, just a workaround while you source this root cause of the issue.
 
Anyway, its super quick to try & very easy to reverse
 
Chuck

HP Z420 24 gigs Ram:Win 8.1 
Eleven Rack :M-Audio Keyrig: Avid Artist Mix + Control
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