Audio Interfaces, run and buy..... no, don't !

I own a cheap Audio interface from Steinberg " Ci1 " ( brand: Yamaha )

I just lendt a Focusrite 18i8, audio interface from a friend to check out.

Now i did not think or could imagine that......, it would be that much of a change in the sound
of different audio interface's but just small, and almost unnoticeable differences.

but ups, i almost did it again..

First thing i noticed with the 18i8 was...., it is less sensitive on the inputs ( need more gain ) on the input stage.
it had less bass and treble, compared to the Ci1 and it sounded more mid ranged and " clean "
compared to the Ci1 more " saturated " sound.

What one is more saturated or less saturated is hard to tell, by just two comparison's.

The stereo width, seemed a tad less on the 18i8, and " tighter " in the sound
while the Ci1 is more " loose " and have a wider stereo image
the instruments seems a bit more panned too, compared to the 18i8.

Before i thought it was just to go and buy " whatever " audio interface i would like
if it had good preamp's and enough of inputs and was decent built.
Now i am not certain anymore.

Many talk about preamps, how many input's, analog outputs, digital outs, digital inputs, phantom power etc
and whatever specs they may look for in the Audio interface.

But are we " forgetting " how it may sound ? Probably the most important part !

I would love a good comparison of a few of the most common cheap /mid budget Audio Interfaces like :
Yamaha, Roland, M-Audio, Akai, presonus, focusrite.

So when i need a new Audio Interface, i can't go on a store and tell em i need to " lend " 6 different
audio interfaces ,so i can compare them and decide what to buy..
And i can't afford to buy all 6, and to sell 5 later on.

for me a warm sound is more like the stereo compared to a simple mono'ish casette deck
i call it digital and cold, if it has less bass and treble and sounds flatter than usual
with less top end, while others will say it is a warmer sound when it has less top end
as you say,all is subjective to taste, ear and definition of sound.

Quite interesting what you tell about crosstalk and stereo width, what is less or more !
maybe you could talk a little about sound here, all basic what to know ?
to enlighten me so i know what i am looking for next time i want buy an Audio interface
and what is important to look and listen for.

The way i did test the two audio interfaces :

I have both installed with latest drivers, and outputs to my stereo amp.
* focusrite = Tape 1
* Ci1        = tape 2.

In windows control panel/sound, i right click " set as default device "
then quickly change from Tape 1 to Tape 2, on my stereo amp to monitor
the other then ill go back and forth in between them to compare.

I can use music ( reference ) from CD, or download wave files from internet
all audio that runs trough the computer can be used to compare in realtime.

mixmkr :
you say there's not that big difference, well maybe there's less difference in between
some Audio Interfaces, than others but in my comparison it was quite noticeable. 

So there is a difference, some less, some more and maybe some no audible difference.
Then there's difference between peoples ears to, some will hear a change and some do not.
by the way, all audio trough the whole chain has something to do with the overall final product
if i have 50 % bad gear with low end sound, it wont help me much if i use per $ 7k 
worth of EQ / compressor equipment, on the last 50% .

I will still have a " better " bad sound, but not 100% good.

It is the same with monitoring.... it wont help with Monitors priced $ 12k
when working in an untreated room with bad acoustics.

The question is :

* Is it better to buy and use a less " saturated " Audio interface while mixing
so i will mix more bass and treble in, and maybe widen it more.

* Or is it better to use a saturated Audio interface so i mix less in.

what is " better or worse " , not to mention :

what audio interface is closest in sound, compared to the " Pro Audio " mastering's out there
and give the most true / closest picture of the pro sound !

How can i tell this is better than this, compared to all the music out there...

I'd think the goal is to have the cleanest interface.  Not one that is warmer, etc.  Just the most accurate.
 
I won't disagree two interfaces can sound different, but I'd think the really low end products would be the most noticeable and ones that contrast.
I also tend to believe you get what you pay for...but nowadays the differences are much smaller and it costs A LOT more to get that final 2%.

Question's to all !

1. So what Audio Interface's do you use , and why ?

2. Did you have another audio interface before, and what was the main reason for the change ?

3. Did your mixes come out better, because of the Audio Interface, or because of new plugins ?

4. other ?

@Soundblend
In the digital realm, I've had these...
Akai DPS12 - did all the mixing on the Akai and could export data to CD (16 bit)
Tascam 2488 - 24 bit and could export data via USB, but not real time
M-Audio PCI Card - First in the box recording (windows xp) I wasn't very good at it and mainly continued to use the Tascam to record and the PC to mix.
Line6 Guitar Interface - Useful for practicing on the road.
M-Audio Fast Track Ultra - Started to really record in the box. I used the spidf to sync to the tascam so I could record 14 tracks at once.
RME UCX - Now I'm up to 16 tracks at once sync'd to the Tascam.
 
Reason for most recent change:
RME will grow with me over time and works well for live field recordings. Previously, for field recordings, it was the Tascam only. Now I can use the RME with the Tascam and I have done so about 6 times to-date. I've made maybe 20 field recordings with the RME only (that may be an underestimate).
 
Are mixes better?
That's subjective, but I'm able to capture more tracks now in the field.
I think I've learned more about how hardware works and what you might want to do with it by playing with software plugins. 

@gswitz, thanks for your input, nice to hear what you have used and learned
yepp can't get enough of inputs always needed, especial for larger projects
in the studio, the band at the pub or on a concert.
btw, thanks for reminding me about RME

to others,i would like to hear some of your experience's

thank's @AT , I'll check a bit, on the Tascam UH-7000 and the other

Jan

Soundblend, IMO the monitor speakers and studio acoustics are about 100 times more important for getting good mixes than the audio interface (as long as we're talking about somewhat decent quality, even though not yet "pro").
 
As mentioned above, "different" is not the same as "better", so you simply pick the one you like.
In your comparison there was that one important variable - your stereo amp. Would the result be the same, if you connected directly from interface to active speakers? Could there be differences in the output impedance of the interfaces, one would match you amp better than the other? Just speculating.

I've owned 3 brands now. M Audio Fast track pro, Tascam us1641 and now a Focusrite scarlett 6i6. 
Output sound quality for music playback as far as I can tell has been equal. I've never A/B them but I certainly get used to listening for day and days over the years. 
The M Audio was by far the lowest quality and had a hi pitched scream in the background. The pre amps were also not great but this was an entry level device so what to be expected.
 
The Tascam is a bargain with above average sound quality for what I paid for it. The pre amps are rock solid and I miss using them compared to the Scarlett. But the drivers need improving to get any work done with Sonar. Sound quality wise I really like it and I  am looking at the new Tascam UH 7000 but am still leery of the drivers.
 
The Scarlett works great for me but I'm not using it's pre amps, I use my Yamaha 01v via the SPDIF. I'm picking up a Joe Meek Pre amp next week I'm hoping that will solve the pre amp issue with the Scarlett. My issue by the way is that they are either to quiet or they clip. The Tascam is way more forgiving and seems to handle most mikes in the way I'm used to a pre amp working.
  
But as said, if the end product of my studio is a CD or a MP3 file. My playback equipment will have no bearing on that other than my ability to produce a mix that translates to the the real world. I have 98% success in that regard and that's using all 3 interfaces and even a Sound Blaster back when. 
 
I buy interfaces based on what connectivity and front panel controls they have. I also base my decision on the reviews of the drivers by other Sonar and DAW users. Sound quality is subjective so I do not factor that as part of the decision making process. In other words until I use the device why would I believe someone elses opinion, it's just an opinion. 

mettelus

1. ASIO aggregation - Programs can access the interface at the same time.

It is my understanding that aggregation allows you to use two or more ASIO devices at the same time.  I've only seen this for identical interfaces that support it, and a lot don't.
 
A single ASIO device can usually be accessed by multiple programs if these allow sharing.
 
The help for the Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP says that two can be combined without aggregation :
 
The Saffire Line is capable of Dual Unit Mode in which two Saffire are connected via Firewire. In this mode the two Interfaces become one interface. You will not need to create any aggregate devices...
 
 
 

Soundblend
Question's to all !

1. So what Audio Interface's do you use , and why ?
2. Did you have another audio interface before, and what was the main reason for the change ?
3. Did your mixes come out better, because of the Audio Interface, or because of new plugins ?
4. other ?

1. RME Fireface UFX because I want quality, stability and little to no coloration. I used to use my TASCAM FW-1884 as my main interface, now it's just a control surface and "extra" MIDI interface if I need more.
 
2. See  # 1, since going ITB I've only had the FW-1884 and the RME. 
 
3. My mixes come out better because of what I've learned in the forums and trial and error and as others have said, learning my equipment.
 
4. N/A.

In theory, and for all intents and purposes.... digital is digital...whether it's a $20 sound card or a full featured interface costing hundreds of dollars.
 
In referring to the interface, you said:  But are we " forgetting " how it may sound ? Probably the most important part !
Simply put, the interface should NOT impart anything of itself into the "sound" you hear. It should simply be a faithful replicator of the sound you got from your sources coming in. Nothing more..... nothing less.
 
However......
 
The differences in sound from one interface to the next would be in the preamps and the output amps circuitry. Obviously, the circuits are similar but not exact, therefore one could expect to "hear" a slight difference from one brand to the next under really good conditions.  Going a step further,  the studio speakers make a significant difference in the sound heard, but mostly, the person operating the system makes the largest difference in the sound quality with all other things being the same.
 
If I'm not careful, and paying full attention to details, using the same exact studio system here in my humble studio, I can produce some good sounding stuff or stuff that needs lots of work (after the fact) to get it right.
 
I use a Focusrite Saffire firewire interface. I've had it for 7+ years now and have run it on 2 different computers. It's solid, and sounds good. To me, "sounds good" means it doesn't seem to color the music I record.... it typically  sounds a bit drab or flat with the raw tracks before I add EQ/FX or when I drop all the FX and EQ into bypass mode. Similar to how you described it below with less bass and treble. However, I for one, don't want the interface to give me a biased, colored, fat bass and crisp highs....I just want it to record a flat, unbiased, true representation of the sound coming in from the mic or guitar amp. I will use FX in the tracks and busses to get the EQ right or record it again.
 
In the OP you said:  First thing i noticed with the 18i8 was...., it is less sensitive on the inputs ( need more gain ) on the input stage. it had less bass and treble, compared to the Ci1 and it sounded more mid ranged and " clean " compared to the Ci1 more " saturated " sound.
 
Were you aware of, did you install, and did you properly adjust the software control panel on the Focusrite? Your input levels are set in it, as are the output levels.  With the settings I have, there is more than enough gain in the preamps. I rarely run input levels above 50% or so on the guitar or the mic signal front panel knobs. I don't recall the levels I use inside the software control panel since it's been years since I needed to tweek them (both in and out)  but I know it's low (40% to 50% IIRC) because when I was setting it for the first time..... yeah, let's just say, that control panel can really push the volume over  the top if you're not careful.  I also have the studio monitors set to the 50% detente on the volume control pots.  So nothing in my studio is cranked, and there it plenty of upside room should I find it necessary.

As far as the bass, mids and treble..... I would expect the Focusrite to be "clean" sounding as you mentioned. If there is an exaggerated bass or mid or treble response, that would NOT be a good thing in a quality interface used for recording. The last thing you want is a defaulted biased response or perhaps the correct word is coloration of the sound. You want to hear what's actually being recorded to track without coloration. You want to hear the strengths and the deficiencies in the music you have recorded.
 
With all other things being equal, the biggest cause of bias in a studio (aside from the engineer) would be the speakers.  When I went to buy my studio monitors, I did a side by side comparison of the available brands with the same musical reference material....and yes, there is quite a difference in the EQ response across the manufacturers and brands. Some are "flatter" and some do exhibit certain frequency biases. My only advice there is to buy what you like and learn the response curves of your speakers well.
 
Focusrite makes some really nice quality interfaces. The preamps are pristine.... perhaps transparent would be a better way to say it.  I've heard a few guys in the Cake forums over the years complain that the Focusrite pre's were "too clean" and that they wanted some coloration in the signal....especially for vocal mics. The advice they were given by others, was to purchase specific mic preamps, generally tube based, that were known in the industry to give a "warmer" tone. Then, simply run that into the Focusrite's transparent pre's properly adjusted and let it roll.
 
I don't think you can go wrong with Focusrite. Just my opinion..... However, there are also a number of other fine quality interfaces available that will give you good value and service for your money.
 
OK that's my 2 cents on this issue.
 

batsbrew
i've been using a PCI card, a MAudio Audiophile 192 for about 6 years now...
 
and have yet to hear any USB unit that i think sounds really any better.
 
granted, i'm somewhat limited in what i can do with that card (i'm still on WinXP, so it is rock solid)....
no dsp, no latency free monitoring, etc...
 
but it still sounds just as good as the >$1000 range units i've used/heard.
i paid $179

 
There you go..... digital is digital....If you've heard Bat's tunes... you know that's some good stuff.....
 
if it wasn't for the latency inherent in the factory cards/chips and the problem they have running ASIO, they too would sound excellent.

mixmkr
I'd think the goal is to have the cleanest interface.  Not one that is warmer, etc.  Just the most accurate.
 
I won't disagree two interfaces can sound different, but I'd think the really low end products would be the most noticeable and ones that contrast.
I also tend to believe you get what you pay for...but nowadays the differences are much smaller and it costs A LOT more to get that final 2%.

Over the years I've had a number of interfaces and last time I had to move on from a failed focusrite pro 24 dsp/vrm unit I tried several after reading everything on rmi and the others in that catagory.  As soon as I spent a night with the Forte and it's advanced RedNetish pre's I returned everything and have been in heaven every since... lovely pre's for both voice and guitars/bass, and just a jewel to work with...I didn't care about all the ins/outs as a solo songwriter VI based songwriter but for the money it wupped everything I've used/tried...best $400ish I ever spent. If the ins/outs suit your needs, go to GC or call Sweetwater with no risk...
 
You won't return it!